How to fight a lithium battery fire

On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 8:54:54 AM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 8:31:50 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote: 
> > > A system that also monitored temperatures inside the battery pack - which is pretty much essential for battery charge monitoring - could also have given early warning of particular cells warming up. 
> > Checking temperatures might be too late. Better way is to have faster shut-off when a cell voltage get too low with partial shorting, and logging every single dip. Leaf's BMS can monitor voltage for every cell. I am sure the Bolt can do also.
> Monitoring temperatures merely gives the pilot an early warning to land immediately or bail out - the failure mechanism has already started and is irreversible.

Not disagreeing with temp monitoring.  But voltage monitoring of intermittent shorts might give earlier warning.  The broken tab or other parts don't short out immediately, but with partial shorts that would further damage the surrounding area, until a total shorting.  Early warning could have grounded the plane or car, with less damages.

The troubling part is why did it takes 5 years and 10 millions plus cells to discover this manufacturing problem.

On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 9:14:56 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 8:54:54 AM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote: 
> > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 8:31:50 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote: 
> > > > A system that also monitored temperatures inside the battery pack - which is pretty much essential for battery charge monitoring - could also have given early warning of particular cells warming up. 
> > > Checking temperatures might be too late. Better way is to have faster shut-off when a cell voltage get too low with partial shorting, and logging every single dip. Leaf's BMS can monitor voltage for every cell. I am sure the Bolt can do also. 
> > Monitoring temperatures merely gives the pilot an early warning to land immediately or bail out - the failure mechanism has already started and is irreversible.
> Not disagreeing with temp monitoring. But voltage monitoring of intermittent shorts might give earlier warning. The broken tab or other parts don't short out immediately, but with partial shorts that would further damage the surrounding area, until a total shorting. Early warning could have grounded the plane or car, with less damages. 
> 
> The troubling part is why did it takes 5 years and 10 millions plus cells to discover this manufacturing problem.

The problem involves dendrite growth during charging. Lithium atoms form in a non-uniform manner and grow into tree-like structures called dendrites. If the dendrite grows tall enough it can penetrate the separator and short to the anode. Many times the dendrite will blow like a fuse, stopping the growth in its tracks. Other times, however, the dendrite is too fat and does not blow, conducting high currents instead. This starts the thermal runaway process.

I have hypothesized that this process can be detected by monitoring the inevitable RF emissions that the smaller dendrites will emit when they short. Monitoring these emissions could predict a future battery failure, giving the user an opportunity to take the battery off-line before it self destructs.

On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 7:48:54 PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 9:14:56 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote: 
> > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 8:54:54 AM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 8:31:50 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote: 
> > > > > A system that also monitored temperatures inside the battery pack - which is pretty much essential for battery charge monitoring - could also have given early warning of particular cells warming up. 
> > > > Checking temperatures might be too late. Better way is to have faster shut-off when a cell voltage get too low with partial shorting, and logging every single dip. Leaf's BMS can monitor voltage for every cell. I am sure the Bolt can do also. 
> > > Monitoring temperatures merely gives the pilot an early warning to land immediately or bail out - the failure mechanism has already started and is irreversible. 
> > Not disagreeing with temp monitoring. But voltage monitoring of intermittent shorts might give earlier warning. The broken tab or other parts don't short out immediately, but with partial shorts that would further damage the surrounding area, until a total shorting. Early warning could have grounded the plane or car, with less damages. 
> > 
> > The troubling part is why did it takes 5 years and 10 millions plus cells to discover this manufacturing problem.
> The problem involves dendrite growth during charging. Lithium atoms form in a non-uniform manner and grow into tree-like structures called dendrites. If the dendrite grows tall enough it can penetrate the separator and short to the anode. Many times the dendrite will blow like a fuse, stopping the growth in its tracks. Other times, however, the dendrite is too fat and does not blow, conducting high currents instead. This starts the thermal runaway process. 

This is the traditional over-discharging/charging problem, and GM immediately issued the SOC guide-line, which is true and good to observe.  However, this is not the bolt's problem.

When dissecting battery cells, they found loose and broken anode tabs and folded external separators, exposing the conductive cathode.  Initial shorting between the tabs and exposed cathode might not be too bad and not enough to trigger temperature alarm.  However, it slowly destroy the inner separators until the anode and cathode come together for a big short.

The BMS is capable of monitoring and logging such problem, if the designer had this in mind.  But this was an unexpected manufacturing defects and not currently implemented.  However, it should still be possible to put in an external monitoring device.  In any case, the defects are frequent enough for LG to replace all the cells, if and when they fix the production process and have enough capabilities to do so.

I am tempted to shop for a Bolt to play with the bugs.

> I have hypothesized that this process can be detected by monitoring the inevitable RF emissions that the smaller dendrites will emit when they short. Monitoring these emissions could predict a future battery failure, giving the user an opportunity to take the battery off-line before it self destructs.

Not sure about RF, but it definitely will have detectable voltage dips.

On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 1:50:04 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 7:49:08 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 12:26:14 AM UTC+10, Ed Lee wrote: 
> > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 12:49:54 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 4:34:20 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 9:08:29 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 1:54:12 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 11:51:40 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 4:26:48 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 7:57:48 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 12:39:25 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 8:12:12 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 3:34:50 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:08:47 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 5:16:17 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, September 4, 2021 at 9:59:29 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:51:38 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > <snip> 
> > > > > A lithium battery thermal runaway can generate hydrogen gas, which, obviously, can and has exploded: 
> > > > > https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1574807 
> > > > So if you break up the battery into single cells, or small groups of cells which have more surface area and don't get as hot, the liquid electrolyte is less likely to leak out, and less likely to get hot enough to burn, or evolve hydrogen gas. 
> > > 
> > > Except when it's internally shorted like the bolt, due to manufacturing defects. It's a random event that is unpredictable and unavoidable. 
> > The electric micro-light plane accident report - to which Flyguy posted a link - made it clear that the battery fire was a direct result of the pilot (who died in the accident) having grossly over-charged his battery pack, which is what had grown the dentrites that eventually shorted at lest some of the cells in his battery, which in turn cooked the rest. 
> > 
> > That wasn't a random event, and the over-charging was avoidable. Micro-light aircraft aren't a large market, and the manufacturer probably wasn't willing to pay for a properly engineered battery control system, which would have monitored the state of charge of the battery pack and prevented over-charging. 
> > 
> > A system that also monitored temperatures inside the battery pack - which is pretty much essential for battery charge monitoring - could also have given early warning of particular cells warming up. 
> > 
> > The problems are - at least to some extent - predictable and avoidable. At the very least you should be able to detect when parts of the battery are starting to get too warm, and turn it in for testing and checking. 
> > 
> > <snip - mostly Flyguy's nonsense, but also something unusually sensible from Ed Lee> 
> 
> No, Sloman, the pilot DIDN'T "overcharge" the battery - he left it FULLY CHARGED for extended periods. This SHOULD NOT have resulted in a catastrophic, fatal event. Battery manufacturers recommend storying lithium batteries for extended periods at a partial charge to EXTEND battery life. 

" The pilot was also known to leave the batteries charging for substantial periods of time 
between flights. This is contrary to the manufacturer&rsquo;s Flight manual and 
Maintenance manual. "

That sounds like overcharging to me.

> Similar things are going on in the car industry. The manufacturers DON'T KNOW what is causing these fires, so they are GUESSING. 

Flyguy doesn't understand much. The manufacturers may not know exactly what has caused each specific fire, but they have got a pretty good idea of what goes wrong, and what contributes to the battery going wrong in those particular ways.
 
> YOU are the one who doesn't understand what is happening - I just established that. You said that "They don't burn," which is absolutely FALSE. So, you are in DENIAL.

If a battery gets hot enough, the individual  cells can burst, and expose lithium and flamable solvent to the air. It would have to get very hot before they could ignite. The cells don't burn, but if they burst their contents can burn, if ignited. The battery - which is an assembly of cells - isn't going to burn while it is an assembly of cells. If it gets hot enough to dismantle and itself, and the cells of which it was composed, they can burn.

Once it is burning is clearly isn't any kind of battery of cells. Flyguy is LYING, though he's probably too stupid to realise it.

-- 
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 9/4/2021 10:51 PM, Flyguy wrote:
> So you own an electric car with a sizeable lithium-based battery, how do you fight a battery fire? Experience with fighting electric car fires is not encouraging because you can't cut off the supply of oxygen to the fire like you can with a carbon fuel such as gasoline - the chemistry of all lithium battery variants supplies its own oxygen.
> 
> There was a very large (mega) battery fire in OZ that took three days to extinguish. The fire really wasn't extinguished, just all of the lithium was consumed. Firefighters were given advice on how to fight the fire by Tesla, the batterie's designer, and UGL, the installer (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/02/tesla-big-battery-fire-in-victoria-burns-into-day-three):
> 
> “They are difficult to fight because you can’t put water on the mega packs … all that does is extend the length of time that the fire burns for.”
> 
> Firefighters have taken advice from experts including Tesla, the battery’s creators, and UGL, who are installing the battery packs.
> 
> “The recommended process is you cool everything around it so the fire can’t spread and you let it burn out,” Beswicke said.
> 
> It is somewhat like fighting large forest fires: you wait for Nature to put it out naturally with rain and/or snow, except worse. A fire in aircraft lithium battery pack will likely result in the complete destruction of the plane, even if it is on the ground when the fire started. If the fire starts while airborne your only option is to bail out (if you are not incapacitated by smoke first like the Taurus Electro glider fatal accident in NZ https://www.aviation.govt.nz/assets/publications/fatal-accident-reports/ZK-GEL-Final-Report-7-December-2020.pdf).
> 

The best way is to walk (or run) away and call the fire department.

On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 6:04:54 PM UTC-4, John S wrote:
> On 9/4/2021 10:51 PM, Flyguy wrote: 
> > So you own an electric car with a sizeable lithium-based battery, how do you fight a battery fire? Experience with fighting electric car fires is not encouraging because you can't cut off the supply of oxygen to the fire like you can with a carbon fuel such as gasoline - the chemistry of all lithium battery variants supplies its own oxygen. 
> >
> > There was a very large (mega) battery fire in OZ that took three days to extinguish. The fire really wasn't extinguished, just all of the lithium was consumed. Firefighters were given advice on how to fight the fire by Tesla, the batterie's designer, and UGL, the installer (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/02/tesla-big-battery-fire-in-victoria-burns-into-day-three): 
> > 
> > “They are difficult to fight because you can’t put water on the mega packs … all that does is extend the length of time that the fire burns for.” 
> > 
> > Firefighters have taken advice from experts including Tesla, the battery’s creators, and UGL, who are installing the battery packs. 
> > 
> > “The recommended process is you cool everything around it so the fire can’t spread and you let it burn out,” Beswicke said. 
> >
> > It is somewhat like fighting large forest fires: you wait for Nature to put it out naturally with rain and/or snow, except worse. A fire in aircraft lithium battery pack will likely result in the complete destruction of the plane, even if it is on the ground when the fire started. If the fire starts while airborne your only option is to bail out (if you are not incapacitated by smoke first like the Taurus Electro glider fatal accident in NZ https://www.aviation.govt.nz/assets/publications/fatal-accident-reports/ZK-GEL-Final-Report-7-December-2020.pdf). 
> > 
> 
> The best way is to walk (or run) away and call the fire department.

I'm not sure why anyone is worried more about the few cases of lithium ion batteries on a plane when there is so much more potential explosive power in the fuel.  I suppose some hysterical people expect that never causes any problems?  

https://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/14/us/twa-flight-800-five-things/index.html

While looking for this I also found reports of jet skis exploding, boilers exploding and let's not forget, !CARS! exploding.  Cars kill a great many people, including the occupants and not always because of crashes.  

I guess some people just want to live their lives in fear.  

-- 

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 9/9/2021 5:52 PM, Rick C wrote:
> On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 6:04:54 PM UTC-4, John S wrote:
>> On 9/4/2021 10:51 PM, Flyguy wrote:
>>> So you own an electric car with a sizeable lithium-based battery, how do you fight a battery fire? Experience with fighting electric car fires is not encouraging because you can't cut off the supply of oxygen to the fire like you can with a carbon fuel such as gasoline - the chemistry of all lithium battery variants supplies its own oxygen.
>>>
>>> There was a very large (mega) battery fire in OZ that took three days to extinguish. The fire really wasn't extinguished, just all of the lithium was consumed. Firefighters were given advice on how to fight the fire by Tesla, the batterie's designer, and UGL, the installer (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/02/tesla-big-battery-fire-in-victoria-burns-into-day-three):
>>>
>>> “They are difficult to fight because you can’t put water on the mega packs … all that does is extend the length of time that the fire burns for.”
>>>
>>> Firefighters have taken advice from experts including Tesla, the battery’s creators, and UGL, who are installing the battery packs.
>>>
>>> “The recommended process is you cool everything around it so the fire can’t spread and you let it burn out,” Beswicke said.
>>>
>>> It is somewhat like fighting large forest fires: you wait for Nature to put it out naturally with rain and/or snow, except worse. A fire in aircraft lithium battery pack will likely result in the complete destruction of the plane, even if it is on the ground when the fire started. If the fire starts while airborne your only option is to bail out (if you are not incapacitated by smoke first like the Taurus Electro glider fatal accident in NZ https://www.aviation.govt.nz/assets/publications/fatal-accident-reports/ZK-GEL-Final-Report-7-December-2020.pdf).
>>>
>>
>> The best way is to walk (or run) away and call the fire department.
> 
> I'm not sure why anyone is worried more about the few cases of lithium ion batteries on a plane when there is so much more potential explosive power in the fuel.  I suppose some hysterical people expect that never causes any problems?
> 
> https://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/14/us/twa-flight-800-five-things/index.html
> 
> While looking for this I also found reports of jet skis exploding, boilers exploding and let's not forget, !CARS! exploding.  Cars kill a great many people, including the occupants and not always because of crashes.
> 
> I guess some people just want to live their lives in fear.
> 

And some people flirt with danger. Fear is a primal warning of possible 
impending death. Stay there and ignore it at your peril. While you do, I 
will vacate the area at high speed.

On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 9:14:50 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 1:50:04 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 7:49:08 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 12:26:14 AM UTC+10, Ed Lee wrote: 
> > > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 12:49:54 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 4:34:20 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 9:08:29 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 1:54:12 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 11:51:40 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 4:26:48 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 7:57:48 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 12:39:25 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 8:12:12 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 3:34:50 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:08:47 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 5:16:17 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, September 4, 2021 at 9:59:29 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:51:38 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > <snip> 
> > > > > > A lithium battery thermal runaway can generate hydrogen gas, which, obviously, can and has exploded: 
> > > > > > https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1574807 
> > > > > So if you break up the battery into single cells, or small groups of cells which have more surface area and don't get as hot, the liquid electrolyte is less likely to leak out, and less likely to get hot enough to burn, or evolve hydrogen gas. 
> > > > 
> > > > Except when it's internally shorted like the bolt, due to manufacturing defects. It's a random event that is unpredictable and unavoidable. 
> > > The electric micro-light plane accident report - to which Flyguy posted a link - made it clear that the battery fire was a direct result of the pilot (who died in the accident) having grossly over-charged his battery pack, which is what had grown the dentrites that eventually shorted at lest some of the cells in his battery, which in turn cooked the rest. 
> > > 
> > > That wasn't a random event, and the over-charging was avoidable. Micro-light aircraft aren't a large market, and the manufacturer probably wasn't willing to pay for a properly engineered battery control system, which would have monitored the state of charge of the battery pack and prevented over-charging. 
> > > 
> > > A system that also monitored temperatures inside the battery pack - which is pretty much essential for battery charge monitoring - could also have given early warning of particular cells warming up. 
> > > 
> > > The problems are - at least to some extent - predictable and avoidable. At the very least you should be able to detect when parts of the battery are starting to get too warm, and turn it in for testing and checking. 
> > >
> > > <snip - mostly Flyguy's nonsense, but also something unusually sensible from Ed Lee> 
> > 
> > No, Sloman, the pilot DIDN'T "overcharge" the battery - he left it FULLY CHARGED for extended periods. This SHOULD NOT have resulted in a catastrophic, fatal event. Battery manufacturers recommend storying lithium batteries for extended periods at a partial charge to EXTEND battery life. 
> 
> " The pilot was also known to leave the batteries charging for substantial periods of time 
> between flights. This is contrary to the manufacturer&rsquo;s Flight manual and 
> Maintenance manual. " 

But should not have resulted in the loss of the aircraft. Things that do that, like exceeding Vne, are CLEARLY spelled in the POH, and would have been if they knew the danger - they did not, just that it has an adverse effect on the batteries like loss of capacity.

> 
> That sounds like overcharging to me.

A FART sounds like overcharging to you, SL0WMAN.

> > Similar things are going on in the car industry. The manufacturers DON'T KNOW what is causing these fires, so they are GUESSING.
> Flyguy doesn't understand much. The manufacturers may not know exactly what has caused each specific fire, but they have got a pretty good idea of what goes wrong, and what contributes to the battery going wrong in those particular ways. 

No they don't. Chevy has gone thru several iterations of their software, finally resulting in the ENTIRE recall of the fleet. If they knew what was wrong they would FIX IT, you fool. They don't and are working overtime trying to figure it out.

> 
> > YOU are the one who doesn't understand what is happening - I just established that. You said that "They don't burn," which is absolutely FALSE. So, you are in DENIAL. 
> 
> If a battery gets hot enough, the individual cells can burst, and expose lithium and flamable solvent to the air. It would have to get very hot before they could ignite. The cells don't burn, but if they burst their contents can burn, if ignited. The battery - which is an assembly of cells - isn't going to burn while it is an assembly of cells. If it gets hot enough to dismantle and itself, and the cells of which it was composed, they can burn. 

They can burn. They can't burn. WHICH is it, you idiot? OF COURSE they can burn, and they DO BURN. And, when parked next to OTHER electric cars, the whole lot burns:
https://mashable.com/article/chevy-bolt-fire-video-battery-recall

> 
> Once it is burning is clearly isn't any kind of battery of cells. Flyguy is LYING, though he's probably too stupid to realise it. 

Again, you say batteries than CAN'T burn, burn. You are a fool, and fool's want to blame someone else for their foolishness, so you call ME a "liar," you LIAR!

On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 1:44:43 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 9:14:50 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 1:50:04 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 7:49:08 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 12:26:14 AM UTC+10, Ed Lee wrote: 
> > > > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 12:49:54 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 4:34:20 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 9:08:29 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 1:54:12 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 11:51:40 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 4:26:48 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 7:57:48 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 12:39:25 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 8:12:12 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 3:34:50 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:08:47 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 5:16:17 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, September 4, 2021 at 9:59:29 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:51:38 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 

 <snip> 

> > > No, Sloman, the pilot DIDN'T "overcharge" the battery - he left it FULLY CHARGED for extended periods. This SHOULD NOT have resulted in a catastrophic, fatal event. Battery manufacturers recommend storing lithium batteries for extended periods at a partial charge to EXTEND battery life. 
> > 
> > " The pilot was also known to leave the batteries charging for substantial periods of time  between flights. This is contrary to the manufacturer&rsquo;s Flight manual and  Maintenance manual. "
>
> But should not have resulted in the loss of the aircraft.

According to Flyguy, who doesn't know much, and is unwilling to learn.

> Things that do that, like exceeding Vne, are CLEARLY spelled in the POH, and would have been if they knew the danger - they did not, just that it has an adverse effect on the batteries like loss of capacity.

Apparently they should have known that  this kind mishandling can also promote the growth of dendrites in the battery, which does seem to be the promiximal cause of the disaster,

> > That sounds like overcharging to me.
>
> A FART sounds like overcharging to you, Sloman.

A bizarre proposition, that only an idiot like Flyguy would bother advancing.

> > > Similar things are going on in the car industry. The manufacturers DON'T KNOW what is causing these fires, so they are GUESSING. 
> >
> > Flyguy doesn't understand much. The manufacturers may not know exactly what has caused each specific fire, but they have got a pretty good idea of what goes wrong, and what contributes to the battery going wrong in those particular ways.
>
> No they don't. Chevy has gone thru several iterations of their software, finally resulting in the ENTIRE recall of the fleet. If they knew what was wrong they would FIX IT, you fool. They don't and are working overtime trying to figure it out.

Flyguy clearly hasn't read "Unsafe at Any Speed". Manufacturers hate recalls and delay them as long as possible.
 
> > > YOU are the one who doesn't understand what is happening - I just established that. You said that "They don't burn," which is absolutely FALSE. So, you are in DENIAL. 
> > 
> > If a battery gets hot enough, the individual cells can burst, and expose lithium and flamable solvent to the air. It would have to get very hot before they could ignite. The cells don't burn, but if they burst their contents can burn, if ignited. The battery - which is an assembly of cells - isn't going to burn while it is an assembly of cells. If it gets hot enough to dismantle and itself, and the cells of which it was composed, they can burn.
>
> They can burn. They can't burn. WHICH is it, you idiot? OF COURSE they can burn, and they DO BURN. And, when parked next to OTHER electric cars, the whole lot burns: 

Flyguy loves to over-simplify issues until he's dumbed them down enough to something he can understand. He then characterises any more complicated - and more realistic position - as idiocy, because it isn't his preferred idiocy.

<snipped irrelevant link>

> > Once it is burning it clearly isn't any kind of battery of cells. Flyguy is LYING, though he's probably too stupid to realise it.
>
> Again, you say batteries than CAN'T burn, burn. You are a fool, and fool's want to blame someone else for their foolishness, so you call ME a "liar," you LIAR!

As I said, too stupid to realise that he is lying.

-- 
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 9:08:35 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 1:44:43 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 9:14:50 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 1:50:04 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 7:49:08 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 12:26:14 AM UTC+10, Ed Lee wrote: 
> > > > > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 12:49:54 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 4:34:20 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 9:08:29 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 1:54:12 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 11:51:40 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 4:26:48 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 7:57:48 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 12:39:25 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 8:12:12 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 3:34:50 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:08:47 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 5:16:17 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, September 4, 2021 at 9:59:29 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:51:38 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> 
> <snip>
> > > > No, Sloman, the pilot DIDN'T "overcharge" the battery - he left it FULLY CHARGED for extended periods. This SHOULD NOT have resulted in a catastrophic, fatal event. Battery manufacturers recommend storing lithium batteries for extended periods at a partial charge to EXTEND battery life.
> > > 
> > > " The pilot was also known to leave the batteries charging for substantial periods of time between flights. This is contrary to the manufacturer&rsquo;s Flight manual and Maintenance manual. " 
> > 
> > But should not have resulted in the loss of the aircraft.
> According to Flyguy, who doesn't know much, and is unwilling to learn.
A liar like you accuses the rest of what YOU are doing.
> > Things that do that, like exceeding Vne, are CLEARLY spelled in the POH, and would have been if they knew the danger - they did not, just that it has an adverse effect on the batteries like loss of capacity.
> Apparently they should have known that this kind mishandling can also promote the growth of dendrites in the battery, which does seem to be the promiximal cause of the disaster,
Who the hell is "they?" News flash: these guys, along with the car makers, have NO IDEA what is causing these battery failures.
> > > That sounds like overcharging to me. 
> >
> > A FART sounds like overcharging to you, Sloman. 
> 
> A bizarre proposition, that only an idiot like Flyguy would bother advancing.
No, YOU are the idiot.
> > > > Similar things are going on in the car industry. The manufacturers DON'T KNOW what is causing these fires, so they are GUESSING. 
> > > 
> > > Flyguy doesn't understand much. The manufacturers may not know exactly what has caused each specific fire, but they have got a pretty good idea of what goes wrong, and what contributes to the battery going wrong in those particular ways. 
> > 
> > No they don't. Chevy has gone thru several iterations of their software, finally resulting in the ENTIRE recall of the fleet. If they knew what was wrong they would FIX IT, you fool. They don't and are working overtime trying to figure it out.
> Flyguy clearly hasn't read "Unsafe at Any Speed". Manufacturers hate recalls and delay them as long as possible.
> > > > YOU are the one who doesn't understand what is happening - I just established that. You said that "They don't burn," which is absolutely FALSE. So, you are in DENIAL. 
> > > 
> > > If a battery gets hot enough, the individual cells can burst, and expose lithium and flamable solvent to the air. It would have to get very hot before they could ignite. The cells don't burn, but if they burst their contents can burn, if ignited. The battery - which is an assembly of cells - isn't going to burn while it is an assembly of cells. If it gets hot enough to dismantle and itself, and the cells of which it was composed, they can burn. 
> > 
> > They can burn. They can't burn. WHICH is it, you idiot? OF COURSE they can burn, and they DO BURN. And, when parked next to OTHER electric cars, the whole lot burns:
> Flyguy loves to over-simplify issues until he's dumbed them down enough to something he can understand. He then characterises any more complicated - and more realistic position - as idiocy, because it isn't his preferred idiocy. 
No, YOU "over-simplified" the issue, stating that burning batteries were no problem, they can just be DROPPED from the aircraft. You would be LAUGHED out of the FAA!
> 
> <snipped irrelevant link> 
More blatant snipping by the idiot restored:
https://mashable.com/article/chevy-bolt-fire-video-battery-recall
> 
> > > Once it is burning it clearly isn't any kind of battery of cells. Flyguy is LYING, though he's probably too stupid to realise it.
> > 
> > Again, you say batteries than CAN'T burn, burn. You are a fool, and fool's want to blame someone else for their foolishness, so you call ME a "liar," you LIAR!
> As I said, too stupid to realise that he is lying. 
I agree, YOU ARE TOO STUPID to REALIZE (not realise) that you are LYING.
<snip idiot's name>