On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 11:51:40 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:> On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 4:26:48 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 7:57:48 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 12:39:25 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 8:12:12 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 3:34:50 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:08:47 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 5:16:17 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > > On Saturday, September 4, 2021 at 9:59:29 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:51:38 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > > > > So you own an electric car with a sizeable lithium-based battery, how do you fight a battery fire? Experience with fighting electric car fires is not encouraging because you can't cut off the supply of oxygen to the fire like you can with a carbon fuel such as gasoline - the chemistry of all lithium battery variants supplies its own oxygen. > > > > > > > > > Not just lithium. Any battery chemistry depends on having both of the energy generating components built in. When they react to produce electricity, this is fine, but if you disrupt the battery structure they can also react to produce heat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There was a very large (mega) battery fire in OZ that took three days to extinguish. The fire really wasn't extinguished, just all of the lithium was consumed. Firefighters were given advice on how to fight the fire by Tesla, the batterie's designer, and UGL, the installer (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/02/tesla-big-battery-fire-in-victoria-burns-into-day-three): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “They are difficult to fight because you can’t put water on the mega packs … all that does is extend the length of time that the fire burns for.” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Firefighters have taken advice from experts including Tesla, the battery’s creators, and UGL, who are installing the battery packs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “The recommended process is you cool everything around it so the fire can’t spread and you let it burn out,” Beswicke said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is somewhat like fighting large forest fires: you wait for Nature to put it out naturally with rain and/or snow, except worse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not exactly. In a forest fire the oxidant is the oxygen in the air, and it worth dumping water on them - aerial tankers are definitely useful in fighting forest fires, though you can't usually deliver enough water to put them out, > > > > > > > > > > A fire in aircraft lithium battery pack will likely result in the complete destruction of the plane, even if it is on the ground when the fire started. > > > > > > > > > It shouldn't, if the battery pack is rationally designed, which would include some provision for cutting it loose if it caught on fire. > > > > > > > > > > If the fire starts while airborne your only option is to bail out (if you are not incapacitated by smoke first like the Taurus Electro glider fatal accident in NZ https://www.aviation.govt.nz/assets/publications/fatal-accident-reports/ZK-GEL-Final-Report-7-December-2020.pdf). > > > > > > > > > Or dump the battery, if that option was designed in. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Cutting it loose?" It is clear that SL0WMAN is not a pilot and knows NOTHING about aircraft! The battery pack is often placed in the wings, so "cutting it loose" means cutting the WINGS OFF! > > > > > > > There are other options. Landing wheels have been known to retract into the wings. > > > > > > > > And if it is in the fuselage it is even worse. > > > > > > > Bombers seem to be designed to jettison large lump of explosive when in flight. It does seem to be a soluble problem, though perhaps a little beyond Flyguy's expertise. > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL! SL0WMAN wants to turn civilian aircraft into BOMBERS!! UN FUCKING BELIEVABLE!!! Hey SL0WMAN, this is about the inherent unreliability of a technology that Left sees as the savior of the planet. You just simply can't rain firebombs down onto populated areas, or start forest fires in unpopulated areas. > > > > > > > > > > Flyguy is remarkably stupid, as I seem to have mentioned before. The problem of getting something out of the fuselage of an aircraft in flight is a problem that has been solved. The fact that it can be done for bombs doesn't make what you throw out a bomb - I did point out that you probably ought to design a jettisonable battery pack so that it broke up into smaller elements with low terminal velocities. They'd cool off as they fell and small elements with relatively high surface areas would probably cool off to safe temperature before they eventually hit the ground. > > > > > > > > > > > > > But, for the sake of argument, if you could do this you would be dropping a very dangerous firebomb down onto the unsuspecting population. > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's a lot of land under most flight paths, and not a lot of population. If you got enthusiastic you might design the battery pack to break up into small fragments - each of which would have a low terminal velocity - after it had been ejected, and none of which was big enough to do much damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ditto. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But Flyguy couldn't be expected to imagine anything that complicated. > > > > > > > > > > Or understand when somebody has spelled it out for him. > > > > > > > > Try reading the accident report of a REAL accident. > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are voluminous, and not widely available. > > > > > > I posted a link to an actual accident that IS available to anyone with an internet connection, which we know SL0WMAN has. > > > > > > Here it is AGAIN: https://www.aviation.govt.nz/assets/publications/fatal-accident-reports/ZK-GEL-Final-Report-7-December-2020.pdf > > > > > > > > > > Which says that pilot abused his battery pack by over-charging them, which can lead to dendrites forming inside the cells, which can short circuits, rapid heat generation and the cells catching on fire. Flyguy probably ought not to buy anything with rechaergeable batteries - he's silly enough to be likely to make the same kind of mistake. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I said it was SOMETHING liking fighting a forest fire, not EXACTLY the same thing - reread it. The similarity is you CAN'T STOP THE FIRE. > > > > > > > > > > > > But you can stop small forest fires, with the right tools, and enough of them. Forests aren't designed. Battery packs ought to be. > > > > > > > > > > > > So, we are going to make wide spread use of a technology that will randomly start forest fires. > > > > > > > > > > Except that it probably wouldn't. For one thing, forests aren't usually dry enough to burn. > > > > > > > > > > > You better look at how well this is working right now in California where they had to evacuate South Lake Tahoe. Better start hiring a lot more firefighters. > > > > > > > > > > At the peak of an uniquely bad fire season. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The bottom line for me is that I will NEVER own an electric aircraft using any foreseeable battery technology. And electric cars have the same problem - take the issue of the Chevy Bolt which now has a full recall. At least with them you can pull over to the side of the road if it catches fire. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tesla still seems to be doing okay. One bad apple isn't a good reason to reject the rest of the crop. > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, REALLY? Check this out you uneducated moron: > > > > > > https://abc7news.com/tesla-elon-musk-7-on-your-side-fire/10957497/ > > > > > > Do you want to die in your sleep as your electric car burns down your house? > > > > > The cars certainly caught fire. This doesn't happen often. Blaming the batteries is easy, but if the wrong bit of insulation had fretted through the consequences would have looked exactly the same. > > > > > > > > Stay tuned for more issues on this subject. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't bother. > > > > > > > > > > > > Fuck you Sloman - I WILL bother! > > > > > > > > > > Of course you will - you are an idiot with passion for advertising the fact wherever you can. > > > > > > > > Hey SL0WMAN, you are so FUCKING STUPID that I am having trouble typing because I am LAUGHING HYSTERICALLY!!! A firebomb that breaks up into BOMBLETS!!! OMG!!!!! You ought to patent that, but the idea has already been taken (i.e. https://patents.google.com/patent/US4638736). So, instead of having ONE firebomb you have an ENTIRE CLUSTER of firebombs!! Are you sure you aren't putting out this trash to make me DIE OF LAUGHTER????? > > > The battery wouldn't be designed to be a firebomb, and - as I pointed out - if it fragmented into lots of small parts with lots of surface area and a low terminal velocity, the fragments could have cooled off enough by the time they reached the ground that they couldn't start a fire. > > > > > > > BTW, lithium battery fires take HOURS to burn out - terminal velocity is 120 mph. > > > > > > If the battery isn't dismanted, both these claims may be true. The terminal velocity of an object depends on it's mass and it's surface area, so making the fragments small enough makes your comment one more of you stupid misapprehensions. > > > > > > Your terminal velocity might well be 120 mph - though I'd like to see that tested. For a cat it's about 60 mph. For a mouse about 36 mph. > > > > LOL! Hey Sloman if you want to TEST terminal velocity why don't you climb up to the highest point in Sydney and JUMP THE FUCK OFF OF IT!!!! You would do ALL OF US a BIG, FUCKING FAVOR!!!!!!!!!!! Be sure to have someone video your FALL - it will be FUN TO WATCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > I'm perfectly happy with the published figure. I'd be happy to see you used as test object, as I did mention - though if you were a little brighter you'd realise that it could be done perfectly safely in a vertical wind tunnel. Do try to avoid recycling other peoples jokes - it does make you look dumb. > > -- > Bill Sloman, SydneyA joke? Hey SL0WMAN, that WASN'T A JOKE! And you didn't seem to know anything about terminal velocity before. The Bottom Line is: your burning battery bomblets ARE NOT going to burn themselves out on the way down, AND the plane will be crashing close by. Your "idea" is, perhaps, the CRAZIEST way to fight lithium battery fires that I have heard, and I have heard some bizarre stuff.
How to fight a lithium battery fire
Started by ●September 5, 2021
Reply by ●September 7, 20212021-09-07
Reply by ●September 8, 20212021-09-08
On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 1:54:12 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:> On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 11:51:40 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 4:26:48 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 7:57:48 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 12:39:25 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 8:12:12 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 3:34:50 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:08:47 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 5:16:17 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, September 4, 2021 at 9:59:29 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:51:38 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:> > > LOL! Hey Sloman if you want to TEST terminal velocity why don't you climb up to the highest point in Sydney and JUMP THE FUCK OFF OF IT!!!! You would do ALL OF US a BIG, FUCKING FAVOR!!!!!!!!!!! Be sure to have someone video your FALL - it will be FUN TO WATCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > > > I'm perfectly happy with the published figure. I'd be happy to see you used as test object, as I did mention - though if you were a little brighter you'd realise that it could be done perfectly safely in a vertical wind tunnel. Do try to avoid recycling other peoples jokes - it does make you look dumb. > > > A joke? Hey Sloman, that WASN'T A JOKE!So you claim to be a psychopathic idiot? I'm happy to believe you.>And you didn't seem to know anything about terminal velocity before.What makes you think that? I was aware that it depends on the mass and cross-sectional area of the falling body, which does seem to have escaped you. In 1954 I got a copy of https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2900911-song-of-the-sky as a primary school prize and read it with interest. If I remember rightly it does go into the concept of terminal velocity. I've come across the concept from time to time since then.> The Bottom Line is: your burning battery bomblets ARE NOT going to burn themselves out on the way down, AND the plane will be crashing close by.The don't burn. They cook themselves by self-discharge. Individual cells have more surface area per watt than an assembled battery, and won't get as hot. If they spend longer getting down to ground level they will have longer to dissipate their stored energy into fast moving air, and won't be as dangerous when they do hit the ground (and they won't be moving all that fast, and the cells will spread out on the way down). Calling them "bomblets" is alarmist nonsense.> Your "idea" is, perhaps, the CRAZIEST way to fight lithium battery fires that I have heard, and I have heard some bizarre stuff.Your idea of what might be going on in a battery "fire" is even crazier. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●September 8, 20212021-09-08
On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 9:08:29 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:> On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 1:54:12 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 11:51:40 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 4:26:48 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 7:57:48 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 12:39:25 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 8:12:12 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 3:34:50 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:08:47 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 5:16:17 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, September 4, 2021 at 9:59:29 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:51:38 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > LOL! Hey Sloman if you want to TEST terminal velocity why don't you climb up to the highest point in Sydney and JUMP THE FUCK OFF OF IT!!!! You would do ALL OF US a BIG, FUCKING FAVOR!!!!!!!!!!! Be sure to have someone video your FALL - it will be FUN TO WATCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > > > > > I'm perfectly happy with the published figure. I'd be happy to see you used as test object, as I did mention - though if you were a little brighter you'd realise that it could be done perfectly safely in a vertical wind tunnel. Do try to avoid recycling other peoples jokes - it does make you look dumb. > > > > > A joke? Hey Sloman, that WASN'T A JOKE! > > So you claim to be a psychopathic idiot? I'm happy to believe you. > >And you didn't seem to know anything about terminal velocity before. > What makes you think that? I was aware that it depends on the mass and cross-sectional area of the falling body, which does seem to have escaped you. > > In 1954 I got a copy of > > https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2900911-song-of-the-sky > > as a primary school prize and read it with interest. If I remember rightly it does go into the concept of terminal velocity. I've come across the concept from time to time since then. > > The Bottom Line is: your burning battery bomblets ARE NOT going to burn themselves out on the way down, AND the plane will be crashing close by. > The don't burn. They cook themselves by self-discharge. Individual cells have more surface area per watt than an assembled battery, and won't get as hot. If they spend longer getting down to ground level they will have longer to dissipate their stored energy into fast moving air, and won't be as dangerous when they do hit the ground (and they won't be moving all that fast, and the cells will spread out on the way down). Calling them "bomblets" is alarmist nonsense. > > Your "idea" is, perhaps, the CRAZIEST way to fight lithium battery fires that I have heard, and I have heard some bizarre stuff. > Your idea of what might be going on in a battery "fire" is even crazier. > > -- > Bill Sloman, SydneyHey SL0WMAN, you are WRONG AGAIN - lithium batteries DO BURN, you idiot. They contain flammable electrolyte that burns like a blowtorch. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/are-lithium-ion-batteries-evs-fire-hazard-2021-08-23/#:~:text=WHY%20DO%20LI%2DION%20BATTERIES,battery%20is%20not%20designed%20correctly. "The major weakness of lithium-ion batteries in electric cars is the use of organic liquid electrolytes, which are volatile and flammable when operating at high temperatures. An external force such as a crash can also lead to chemical leakage." A lithium battery thermal runaway can generate hydrogen gas, which, obviously, can and has exploded: https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1574807 You are amazing - you keep making PROVABLY FALSE STATEMENTS about the subject, but that doesn't faze you. You are an IDIOT and a FOOL!!
Reply by ●September 8, 20212021-09-08
On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 4:34:20 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:> On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 9:08:29 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 1:54:12 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 11:51:40 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 4:26:48 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 7:57:48 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 12:39:25 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 8:12:12 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 3:34:50 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:08:47 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 5:16:17 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, September 4, 2021 at 9:59:29 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:51:38 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > LOL! Hey Sloman if you want to TEST terminal velocity why don't you climb up to the highest point in Sydney and JUMP THE FUCK OFF OF IT!!!! You would do ALL OF US a BIG, FUCKING FAVOR!!!!!!!!!!! Be sure to have someone video your FALL - it will be FUN TO WATCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > > > > > > > I'm perfectly happy with the published figure. I'd be happy to see you used as test object, as I did mention - though if you were a little brighter you'd realise that it could be done perfectly safely in a vertical wind tunnel. Do try to avoid recycling other peoples jokes - it does make you look dumb. > > > > > > > A joke? Hey Sloman, that WASN'T A JOKE! > > > > So you claim to be a psychopathic idiot? I'm happy to believe you. > > > >And you didn't seem to know anything about terminal velocity before. > > What makes you think that? I was aware that it depends on the mass and cross-sectional area of the falling body, which does seem to have escaped you. > > > > In 1954 I got a copy of > > > > https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2900911-song-of-the-sky > > > > as a primary school prize and read it with interest. If I remember rightly it does go into the concept of terminal velocity. I've come across the concept from time to time since then. > > > > The Bottom Line is: your burning battery bomblets ARE NOT going to burn themselves out on the way down, AND the plane will be crashing close by. > > > The don't burn. They cook themselves by self-discharge. Individual cells have more surface area per watt than an assembled battery, and won't get as hot. If they spend longer getting down to ground level they will have longer to dissipate their stored energy into fast moving air, and won't be as dangerous when they do hit the ground (and they won't be moving all that fast, and the cells will spread out on the way down). Calling them "bomblets" is alarmist nonsense. > > > > Your "idea" is, perhaps, the CRAZIEST way to fight lithium battery fires that I have heard, and I have heard some bizarre stuff. > > > > Your idea of what might be going on in a battery "fire" is even crazier. > > Hey SL0WMAN, you are WRONG AGAIN - lithium batteries DO BURN, you idiot. They contain flammable electrolyte that burns like a blowtorch. > https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/are-lithium-ion-batteries-evs-fire-hazard-2021-08-23/#:~:text=WHY%20DO%20LI%2DION%20BATTERIES,battery%20is%20not%20designed%20correctly. > > "The major weakness of lithium-ion batteries in electric cars is the use of organic liquid electrolytes, which are volatile and flammable when operating at high temperatures. An external force such as a crash can also lead to chemical leakage." > > A lithium battery thermal runaway can generate hydrogen gas, which, obviously, can and has exploded: > https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1574807So if you break up the battery into single cells, or small groups of cells which have more surface area and don't get as hot, the liquid electrolyte is less likely to leak out, and less likely to get hot enough to burn, or evolve hydrogen gas.> You are amazing - you keep making PROVABLY FALSE STATEMENTS about the subject, but that doesn't faze you. You are an IDIOT and a FOOL!!You do seem to lack any grasp of the fundamental science involved - you keep on telling us what a big battery of cells would do, when I've been pointing out that breaking up that big battery before it gets seriously warm is gong to evade most of the worst consequences. It might not work for an electric car, but an aircraft in flight has a lot more space into which you can dilute the problems. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●September 8, 20212021-09-08
On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 12:49:54 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:> On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 4:34:20 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 9:08:29 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 1:54:12 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 11:51:40 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 4:26:48 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 7:57:48 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 12:39:25 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 8:12:12 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 3:34:50 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:08:47 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 5:16:17 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, September 4, 2021 at 9:59:29 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:51:38 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > > > LOL! Hey Sloman if you want to TEST terminal velocity why don't you climb up to the highest point in Sydney and JUMP THE FUCK OFF OF IT!!!! You would do ALL OF US a BIG, FUCKING FAVOR!!!!!!!!!!! Be sure to have someone video your FALL - it will be FUN TO WATCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > > > > > > > > > I'm perfectly happy with the published figure. I'd be happy to see you used as test object, as I did mention - though if you were a little brighter you'd realise that it could be done perfectly safely in a vertical wind tunnel. Do try to avoid recycling other peoples jokes - it does make you look dumb. > > > > > > > > > A joke? Hey Sloman, that WASN'T A JOKE! > > > > > > So you claim to be a psychopathic idiot? I'm happy to believe you. > > > > > >And you didn't seem to know anything about terminal velocity before. > > > What makes you think that? I was aware that it depends on the mass and cross-sectional area of the falling body, which does seem to have escaped you. > > > > > > In 1954 I got a copy of > > > > > > https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2900911-song-of-the-sky > > > > > > as a primary school prize and read it with interest. If I remember rightly it does go into the concept of terminal velocity. I've come across the concept from time to time since then. > > > > > > The Bottom Line is: your burning battery bomblets ARE NOT going to burn themselves out on the way down, AND the plane will be crashing close by. > > > > > The don't burn. They cook themselves by self-discharge. Individual cells have more surface area per watt than an assembled battery, and won't get as hot. If they spend longer getting down to ground level they will have longer to dissipate their stored energy into fast moving air, and won't be as dangerous when they do hit the ground (and they won't be moving all that fast, and the cells will spread out on the way down). Calling them "bomblets" is alarmist nonsense. > > > > > > Your "idea" is, perhaps, the CRAZIEST way to fight lithium battery fires that I have heard, and I have heard some bizarre stuff. > > > > > > Your idea of what might be going on in a battery "fire" is even crazier. > > > > Hey SL0WMAN, you are WRONG AGAIN - lithium batteries DO BURN, you idiot. They contain flammable electrolyte that burns like a blowtorch. > > https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/are-lithium-ion-batteries-evs-fire-hazard-2021-08-23/#:~:text=WHY%20DO%20LI%2DION%20BATTERIES,battery%20is%20not%20designed%20correctly. > > > > "The major weakness of lithium-ion batteries in electric cars is the use of organic liquid electrolytes, which are volatile and flammable when operating at high temperatures. An external force such as a crash can also lead to chemical leakage." > > > > A lithium battery thermal runaway can generate hydrogen gas, which, obviously, can and has exploded: > > https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1574807 > So if you break up the battery into single cells, or small groups of cells which have more surface area and don't get as hot, the liquid electrolyte is less likely to leak out, and less likely to get hot enough to burn, or evolve hydrogen gas.Except when it's internally shorted like the bolt, due to manufacturing defects. It's a random event that is unpredictable and unavoidable.> > You are amazing - you keep making PROVABLY FALSE STATEMENTS about the subject, but that doesn't faze you. You are an IDIOT and a FOOL!! > You do seem to lack any grasp of the fundamental science involved - you keep on telling us what a big battery of cells would do, when I've been pointing out that breaking up that big battery before it gets seriously warm is gong to evade most of the worst consequences. > > It might not work for an electric car, but an aircraft in flight has a lot more space into which you can dilute the problems.Actually, it does work for EV too. There is no reason why the main battery has to be in one piece and under the car. I have some under the hood and some in the side doors.
Reply by ●September 8, 20212021-09-08
On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 12:26:14 AM UTC+10, Ed Lee wrote:> On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 12:49:54 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 4:34:20 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 9:08:29 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 1:54:12 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 11:51:40 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 4:26:48 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 7:57:48 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 12:39:25 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 8:12:12 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 3:34:50 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:08:47 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 5:16:17 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, September 4, 2021 at 9:59:29 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:51:38 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:<snip>> > > A lithium battery thermal runaway can generate hydrogen gas, which, obviously, can and has exploded: > > > https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1574807 > > So if you break up the battery into single cells, or small groups of cells which have more surface area and don't get as hot, the liquid electrolyte is less likely to leak out, and less likely to get hot enough to burn, or evolve hydrogen gas. > > Except when it's internally shorted like the bolt, due to manufacturing defects. It's a random event that is unpredictable and unavoidable.The electric micro-light plane accident report - to which Flyguy posted a link - made it clear that the battery fire was a direct result of the pilot (who died in the accident) having grossly over-charged his battery pack, which is what had grown the dentrites that eventually shorted at lest some of the cells in his battery, which in turn cooked the rest. That wasn't a random event, and the over-charging was avoidable. Micro-light aircraft aren't a large market, and the manufacturer probably wasn't willing to pay for a properly engineered battery control system, which would have monitored the state of charge of the battery pack and prevented over-charging. A system that also monitored temperatures inside the battery pack - which is pretty much essential for battery charge monitoring - could also have given early warning of particular cells warming up. The problems are - at least to some extent - predictable and avoidable. At the very least you should be able to detect when parts of the battery are starting to get too warm, and turn it in for testing and checking. <snip - mostly Flyguy's nonsense, but also somehting usually sensible from Ed Lee> -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●September 8, 20212021-09-08
On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 7:49:08 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:> On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 12:26:14 AM UTC+10, Ed Lee wrote: > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 12:49:54 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 4:34:20 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 9:08:29 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 1:54:12 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 11:51:40 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 4:26:48 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 7:57:48 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 12:39:25 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 8:12:12 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 3:34:50 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:08:47 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 5:16:17 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, September 4, 2021 at 9:59:29 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:51:38 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > <snip> > > > > A lithium battery thermal runaway can generate hydrogen gas, which, obviously, can and has exploded: > > > > https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1574807 > > > So if you break up the battery into single cells, or small groups of cells which have more surface area and don't get as hot, the liquid electrolyte is less likely to leak out, and less likely to get hot enough to burn, or evolve hydrogen gas. > > > > Except when it's internally shorted like the bolt, due to manufacturing defects. It's a random event that is unpredictable and unavoidable. > The electric micro-light plane accident report - to which Flyguy posted a link - made it clear that the battery fire was a direct result of the pilot (who died in the accident) having grossly over-charged his battery pack, which is what had grown the dentrites that eventually shorted at lest some of the cells in his battery, which in turn cooked the rest. > > That wasn't a random event, and the over-charging was avoidable. Micro-light aircraft aren't a large market, and the manufacturer probably wasn't willing to pay for a properly engineered battery control system, which would have monitored the state of charge of the battery pack and prevented over-charging.I was referring to the bolt battery problem as a random event. The anode tab broke off and shorting internally. It has nothing to do with SOC (State of Charge) or overcharging. It's unsafe at any SOC. GM issued the overcharging warning before finding the real problem, which can only be solved with a "total recall".
Reply by ●September 8, 20212021-09-08
> A system that also monitored temperatures inside the battery pack - which is pretty much essential for battery charge monitoring - could also have given early warning of particular cells warming up.Checking temperatures might be too late. Better way is to have faster shut-off when a cell voltage get too low with partial shorting, and logging every single dip. Leaf's BMS can monitor voltage for every cell. I am sure the Bolt can do also.
Reply by ●September 8, 20212021-09-08
On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 7:49:08 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:> On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 12:26:14 AM UTC+10, Ed Lee wrote: > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 12:49:54 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 4:34:20 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 9:08:29 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 1:54:12 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 11:51:40 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 4:26:48 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 7:57:48 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 12:39:25 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 8:12:12 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 3:34:50 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:08:47 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 5:16:17 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, September 4, 2021 at 9:59:29 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:51:38 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > <snip> > > > > A lithium battery thermal runaway can generate hydrogen gas, which, obviously, can and has exploded: > > > > https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1574807 > > > So if you break up the battery into single cells, or small groups of cells which have more surface area and don't get as hot, the liquid electrolyte is less likely to leak out, and less likely to get hot enough to burn, or evolve hydrogen gas. > > > > Except when it's internally shorted like the bolt, due to manufacturing defects. It's a random event that is unpredictable and unavoidable. > The electric micro-light plane accident report - to which Flyguy posted a link - made it clear that the battery fire was a direct result of the pilot (who died in the accident) having grossly over-charged his battery pack, which is what had grown the dentrites that eventually shorted at lest some of the cells in his battery, which in turn cooked the rest. > > That wasn't a random event, and the over-charging was avoidable. Micro-light aircraft aren't a large market, and the manufacturer probably wasn't willing to pay for a properly engineered battery control system, which would have monitored the state of charge of the battery pack and prevented over-charging. > > A system that also monitored temperatures inside the battery pack - which is pretty much essential for battery charge monitoring - could also have given early warning of particular cells warming up. > > The problems are - at least to some extent - predictable and avoidable. At the very least you should be able to detect when parts of the battery are starting to get too warm, and turn it in for testing and checking. > > <snip - mostly Flyguy's nonsense, but also somehting usually sensible from Ed Lee> > > -- > SL0WMAN, SydneyNo, SL0WMAN, the pilot DIDN'T "overcharge" the battery - he left it FULLY CHARGED for extended periods. This SHOULD NOT have resulted in a catastrophic, fatal event. Battery manufacturers recommend storying lithium batteries for extended periods at a partial charge to EXTEND battery life. Similar things are going on in the car industry. The manufacturers DON'T KNOW what is causing these fires, so they are GUESSING. YOU are the one who doesn't understand what is happening - I just established that. You said that "The don't burn," which is absolutely FALSE. So, you are in DENIAL.
Reply by ●September 8, 20212021-09-08
On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 8:31:50 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:> > A system that also monitored temperatures inside the battery pack - which is pretty much essential for battery charge monitoring - could also have given early warning of particular cells warming up. > Checking temperatures might be too late. Better way is to have faster shut-off when a cell voltage get too low with partial shorting, and logging every single dip. Leaf's BMS can monitor voltage for every cell. I am sure the Bolt can do also.Monitoring temperatures merely gives the pilot an early warning to land immediately or bail out - the failure mechanism has already started and is irreversible.
