On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 4:13:02 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:> On a sunny day (Sun, 5 Sep 2021 00:16:14 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Flyguy > <soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote in > <855b7e32-24c4-49e0...@googlegroups.com>: > >The bottom line for me is that I will NEVER own an electric aircraft using any > >foreseeable battery technology. > There exisst Lifepo4 batteries > > But I really do not know if the current capacity is enough to keep an airplane in the air for a reasonable amount of time. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery#Safety > > But I do think the move towards 'every transport electric' is extremely dangerous as no emergency services > will be available if the power grid fails as we have seen now in Louisiana, > You would not be able to charge your electric plane either.Other than those who have alternative energy sources on hand. You can do a lot of EV charging with just a couple of kW solar panels. When at my place in VA I typically charge from a 120V outlet. I get about 75 miles of range in a day. A few solar panels will provide the same capacity. -- Rick C. + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
How to fight a lithium battery fire
Started by ●September 5, 2021
Reply by ●September 5, 20212021-09-05
Reply by ●September 5, 20212021-09-05
On a sunny day (Sun, 5 Sep 2021 08:44:51 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in <09f58a0c-2bdf-43ad-8efa-f530c5a133f8n@googlegroups.com>:>On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 4:13:02 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> On a sunny day (Sun, 5 Sep 2021 00:16:14 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Flyguy >> ><soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote in >> <855b7e32-24c4-49e0...@googlegroups.com>: >> >The bottom line for me is that I will NEVER own an electric aircraft using >any >> >foreseeable battery technology. >> There exisst Lifepo4 batteries >> >> But I really do not know if the current capacity is enough to keep an airplane >in the air for a reasonable amount of time. >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery#Safety >> >> But I do think the move towards 'every transport electric' is extremely dangerous >as no emergency services >> will be available if the power grid fails as we have seen now in Louisiana, >> >You would not be able to charge your electric plane either. > >Other than those who have alternative energy sources on hand. You can do a >lot of EV charging with just a couple of kW solar panels.Only if the sun shines! Louisiana? we had almost a week of overcast here, just now the sun is back!>When at my place >in VA I typically charge from a 120V outlet. I get about 75 miles of range >in a day. A few solar panels will provide the same capacity.How many kWh does 75 miles need? Typical single solar panel is 80 W (max for the one I have). 6 hours of full sunlight is then about .5 kWh. Enough to charge your celphone and run a radioa... You will need a lot of panels.
Reply by ●September 5, 20212021-09-05
On 9/5/2021 3:12 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:> On a sunny day (Sun, 5 Sep 2021 00:16:14 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Flyguy > <soar2morrow@yahoo.com> wrote in > <855b7e32-24c4-49e0-977a-a2a8b6923a45n@googlegroups.com>: > >> The bottom line for me is that I will NEVER own an electric aircraft using any >> foreseeable battery technology. > There exisst Lifepo4 batteries > > But I really do not know if the current capacity is enough to keep an airplane in the air for a reasonable amount of time. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery#Safety > > But I do think the move towards 'every transport electric' is extremely dangerous as no emergency services > will be available if the power grid fails as we have seen now in Louisiana, > You would not be able to charge your electric plane either.In flight recharging anyone! :-) ������ Mikek -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Reply by ●September 5, 20212021-09-05
On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:08:47 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:> On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 5:16:17 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > On Saturday, September 4, 2021 at 9:59:29 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:51:38 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > So you own an electric car with a sizeable lithium-based battery, how do you fight a battery fire? Experience with fighting electric car fires is not encouraging because you can't cut off the supply of oxygen to the fire like you can with a carbon fuel such as gasoline - the chemistry of all lithium battery variants supplies its own oxygen. > > > Not just lithium. Any battery chemistry depends on having both of the energy generating components built in. When they react to produce electricity, this is fine, but if you disrupt the battery structure they can also react to produce heat. > > > > > > > There was a very large (mega) battery fire in OZ that took three days to extinguish. The fire really wasn't extinguished, just all of the lithium was consumed. Firefighters were given advice on how to fight the fire by Tesla, the batterie's designer, and UGL, the installer (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/02/tesla-big-battery-fire-in-victoria-burns-into-day-three): > > > > > > > > “They are difficult to fight because you can’t put water on the mega packs … all that does is extend the length of time that the fire burns for.” > > > > > > > > Firefighters have taken advice from experts including Tesla, the battery’s creators, and UGL, who are installing the battery packs. > > > > > > > > “The recommended process is you cool everything around it so the fire can’t spread and you let it burn out,” Beswicke said. > > > > > > > > It is somewhat like fighting large forest fires: you wait for Nature to put it out naturally with rain and/or snow, except worse. > > > > > > Not exactly. In a forest fire the oxidant is the oxygen in the air, and it worth dumping water on them - aerial tankers are definitely useful in fighting forest fires, though you can't usually deliver enough water to put them out, > > > > A fire in aircraft lithium battery pack will likely result in the complete destruction of the plane, even if it is on the ground when the fire started. > > > It shouldn't, if the battery pack is rationally designed, which would include some provision for cutting it loose if it caught on fire. > > > > If the fire starts while airborne your only option is to bail out (if you are not incapacitated by smoke first like the Taurus Electro glider fatal accident in NZ https://www.aviation.govt.nz/assets/publications/fatal-accident-reports/ZK-GEL-Final-Report-7-December-2020.pdf). > > > Or dump the battery, if that option was designed in. > > > > "Cutting it loose?" It is clear that SL0WMAN is not a pilot and knows NOTHING about aircraft! The battery pack is often placed in the wings, so "cutting it loose" means cutting the WINGS OFF! > There are other options. Landing wheels have been known to retract into the wings. > > And if it is in the fuselage it is even worse. > Bombers seem to be designed to jettison large lump of explosive when in flight. It does seem to be a soluble problem, though perhaps a little beyond Flyguy's expertise.LOL! SL0WMAN wants to turn civilian aircraft into BOMBERS!! UN FUCKING BELIEVABLE!!! Hey SL0WMAN, this is about the inherent unreliability of a technology that Left sees as the savior of the planet. You just simply can't rain firebombs down onto populated areas, or start forest fires in unpopulated areas.> > But, for the sake of argument, if you could do this you would be dropping a very dangerous firebomb down onto the unsuspecting population. > There's a lot of land under most flight paths, and not a lot of population. If you got enthusiastic you might design the battery pack to break up into small fragments - each of which would have a low terminal velocity - after it had been ejected, and none of which was big enough to do much damage.Ditto.> > But Flyguy couldn't be expected to imagine anything that complicated. > > Try reading the accident report of a REAL accident. > They are voluminous, and not widely available.I posted a link to an actual accident that IS available to anyone with an internet connection, which we know SL0WMAN has. Here it is AGAIN: https://www.aviation.govt.nz/assets/publications/fatal-accident-reports/ZK-GEL-Final-Report-7-December-2020.pdf> > > > I said it was SOMETHING liking fighting a forest fire, not EXACTLY the same thing - reread it. The similarity is you CAN'T STOP THE FIRE. > But you can stop small forest fires, with the right tools, and enough of them. Forests aren't designed. Battery packs ought to be.So, we are going to make wide spread use of a technology that will randomly start forest fires. You better look at how well this is working right now in California where they had to evacuate South Lake Tahoe. Better start hiring a lot more firefighters.> > The bottom line for me is that I will NEVER own an electric aircraft using any foreseeable battery technology. And electric cars have the same problem - take the issue of the Chevy Bolt which now has a full recall. At least with them you can pull over to the side of the road if it catches fire.> Tesla still seems to be doing okay. One bad apple isn't a good reason to reject the rest of the crop.Oh, REALLY? Check this out you uneducated moron: https://abc7news.com/tesla-elon-musk-7-on-your-side-fire/10957497/ Do you want to die in your sleep as your electric car burns down your house?> > Stay tuned for more issues on this subject. > Don't bother.Fuck you SL0WMAN - I WILL bother!
Reply by ●September 5, 20212021-09-05
On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 12:50:40 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:> On a sunny day (Sun, 5 Sep 2021 08:44:51 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Rick C > <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in > <09f58a0c-2bdf-43ad...@googlegroups.com>: > >On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 4:13:02 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote: > >> On a sunny day (Sun, 5 Sep 2021 00:16:14 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Flyguy > >> > ><soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote in > >> <855b7e32-24c4-49e0...@googlegroups.com>: > >> >The bottom line for me is that I will NEVER own an electric aircraft using > >any > >> >foreseeable battery technology. > >> There exisst Lifepo4 batteries > >> > >> But I really do not know if the current capacity is enough to keep an airplane > >in the air for a reasonable amount of time. > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery#Safety > >> > >> But I do think the move towards 'every transport electric' is extremely dangerous > >as no emergency services > >> will be available if the power grid fails as we have seen now in Louisiana, > >> > >You would not be able to charge your electric plane either. > > > >Other than those who have alternative energy sources on hand. You can do a > >lot of EV charging with just a couple of kW solar panels. > Only if the sun shines! > Louisiana? we had almost a week of overcast here, just now the sun is back! > >When at my place > >in VA I typically charge from a 120V outlet. I get about 75 miles of range > >in a day. A few solar panels will provide the same capacity. > How many kWh does 75 miles need? > > Typical single solar panel is 80 W (max for the one I have). > > 6 hours of full sunlight is then about .5 kWh. > Enough to charge your celphone and run a radioa... > You will need a lot of panels.Or maybe use solar panels that aren't toys. What size is your panel, a quarter of a square meter, less? People run entire homes with solar panels. Are you not connected to the Internet? Try reading up on them. They are pretty good. Do you really not know about solar panels or are you just trolling? -- Rick C. -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●September 5, 20212021-09-05
søndag den 5. september 2021 kl. 19.53.43 UTC+2 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:> On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 12:50:40 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote: > > On a sunny day (Sun, 5 Sep 2021 08:44:51 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Rick C > > <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in > > <09f58a0c-2bdf-43ad...@googlegroups.com>: > > >On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 4:13:02 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote: > > >> On a sunny day (Sun, 5 Sep 2021 00:16:14 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Flyguy > > >> > > ><soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote in > > >> <855b7e32-24c4-49e0...@googlegroups.com>: > > >> >The bottom line for me is that I will NEVER own an electric aircraft using > > >any > > >> >foreseeable battery technology. > > >> There exisst Lifepo4 batteries > > >> > > >> But I really do not know if the current capacity is enough to keep an airplane > > >in the air for a reasonable amount of time. > > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery#Safety > > >> > > >> But I do think the move towards 'every transport electric' is extremely dangerous > > >as no emergency services > > >> will be available if the power grid fails as we have seen now in Louisiana, > > >> > > >You would not be able to charge your electric plane either. > > > > > >Other than those who have alternative energy sources on hand. You can do a > > >lot of EV charging with just a couple of kW solar panels. > > Only if the sun shines! > > Louisiana? we had almost a week of overcast here, just now the sun is back! > > >When at my place > > >in VA I typically charge from a 120V outlet. I get about 75 miles of range > > >in a day. A few solar panels will provide the same capacity. > > How many kWh does 75 miles need? > > > > Typical single solar panel is 80 W (max for the one I have). > > > > 6 hours of full sunlight is then about .5 kWh. > > Enough to charge your celphone and run a radioa... > > You will need a lot of panels. > Or maybe use solar panels that aren't toys. What size is your panel, a quarter of a square meter, less? > > People run entire homes with solar panels. Are you not connected to the Internet? Try reading up on them. They are pretty good.with a lot more panels, they are only maybe ~200w/m^2
Reply by ●September 5, 20212021-09-05
On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 11:03:17 AM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:> søndag den 5. september 2021 kl. 19.53.43 UTC+2 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com: > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 12:50:40 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote: > > > On a sunny day (Sun, 5 Sep 2021 08:44:51 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Rick C > > > <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in > > > <09f58a0c-2bdf-43ad...@googlegroups.com>: > > > >On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 4:13:02 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote: > > > >> On a sunny day (Sun, 5 Sep 2021 00:16:14 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Flyguy > > > >> > > > ><soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote in > > > >> <855b7e32-24c4-49e0...@googlegroups.com>: > > > >> >The bottom line for me is that I will NEVER own an electric aircraft using > > > >any > > > >> >foreseeable battery technology. > > > >> There exisst Lifepo4 batteries > > > >> > > > >> But I really do not know if the current capacity is enough to keep an airplane > > > >in the air for a reasonable amount of time. > > > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery#Safety > > > >> > > > >> But I do think the move towards 'every transport electric' is extremely dangerous > > > >as no emergency services > > > >> will be available if the power grid fails as we have seen now in Louisiana, > > > >> > > > >You would not be able to charge your electric plane either. > > > > > > > >Other than those who have alternative energy sources on hand. You can do a > > > >lot of EV charging with just a couple of kW solar panels. > > > Only if the sun shines! > > > Louisiana? we had almost a week of overcast here, just now the sun is back! > > > >When at my place > > > >in VA I typically charge from a 120V outlet. I get about 75 miles of range > > > >in a day. A few solar panels will provide the same capacity. > > > How many kWh does 75 miles need? > > > > > > Typical single solar panel is 80 W (max for the one I have). > > > > > > 6 hours of full sunlight is then about .5 kWh. > > > Enough to charge your celphone and run a radioa... > > > You will need a lot of panels. > > Or maybe use solar panels that aren't toys. What size is your panel, a quarter of a square meter, less? > > > > People run entire homes with solar panels. Are you not connected to the Internet? Try reading up on them. They are pretty good. > with a lot more panels, they are only maybe ~200w/m^2Once your electric car is declared unsafe you won't need ANY solar panels: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/20/gm-to-spend-1-billion-to-expand-chevy-bolt-ev-recall-due-to-fires.html
Reply by ●September 5, 20212021-09-05
On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 2:03:17 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:> søndag den 5. september 2021 kl. 19.53.43 UTC+2 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com: > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 12:50:40 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote: > > > On a sunny day (Sun, 5 Sep 2021 08:44:51 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Rick C > > > <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in > > > <09f58a0c-2bdf-43ad...@googlegroups.com>: > > > >On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 4:13:02 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote: > > > >> On a sunny day (Sun, 5 Sep 2021 00:16:14 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Flyguy > > > >> > > > ><soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote in > > > >> <855b7e32-24c4-49e0...@googlegroups.com>: > > > >> >The bottom line for me is that I will NEVER own an electric aircraft using > > > >any > > > >> >foreseeable battery technology. > > > >> There exisst Lifepo4 batteries > > > >> > > > >> But I really do not know if the current capacity is enough to keep an airplane > > > >in the air for a reasonable amount of time. > > > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery#Safety > > > >> > > > >> But I do think the move towards 'every transport electric' is extremely dangerous > > > >as no emergency services > > > >> will be available if the power grid fails as we have seen now in Louisiana, > > > >> > > > >You would not be able to charge your electric plane either. > > > > > > > >Other than those who have alternative energy sources on hand. You can do a > > > >lot of EV charging with just a couple of kW solar panels. > > > Only if the sun shines! > > > Louisiana? we had almost a week of overcast here, just now the sun is back! > > > >When at my place > > > >in VA I typically charge from a 120V outlet. I get about 75 miles of range > > > >in a day. A few solar panels will provide the same capacity. > > > How many kWh does 75 miles need? > > > > > > Typical single solar panel is 80 W (max for the one I have). > > > > > > 6 hours of full sunlight is then about .5 kWh. > > > Enough to charge your celphone and run a radioa... > > > You will need a lot of panels. > > Or maybe use solar panels that aren't toys. What size is your panel, a quarter of a square meter, less? > > > > People run entire homes with solar panels. Are you not connected to the Internet? Try reading up on them. They are pretty good. > with a lot more panels, they are only maybe ~200w/m^2Any number you come up with depends on many factors, so no number is right and no number is wrong. The idea that it takes a prohibitive number of panels or more appropriately a prohibitive cost or size to charge an EV is fallacious. A great number of EV owners use solar power to charge their vehicles. This can work very well because the amount of power used by many EVs is not particularly high. Ask Win, who charges his PEHV on a 120VAC outlet. -- Rick C. -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●September 5, 20212021-09-05
On a sunny day (Sun, 5 Sep 2021 10:53:40 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in <4e9b0ed2-9874-411f-9ad3-3c60ecc440f2n@googlegroups.com>:>> >Other than those who have alternative energy sources on hand. You can do a >> >lot of EV charging with just a couple of kW solar panels. >> Only if the sun shines! >> Louisiana? we had almost a week of overcast here, just now the sun is back! >> >When at my place >> >in VA I typically charge from a 120V outlet. I get about 75 miles of range >> >in a day. A few solar panels will provide the same capacity. >> How many kWh does 75 miles need?As you evade a simple quato nat the basis of your claim..>> Typical single solar panel is 80 W (max for the one I have). >> >> 6 hours of full sunlight is then about .5 kWh. >> Enough to charge your celphone and run a radioa... >> You will need a lot of panels. > >Or maybe use solar panels that aren't toys. What size is your panel, a quarter of a square meter, less?Sigh, From the bill Uitvoering Afmetingen : 120 * 55 CM MDZA100WPPANEEL-MDZ9512054 1 Euro 107,69 It is claimed 100W but I measured 80W in normal direct sunlight. Now give your kWh for 75 miels please!!>People run entire homes with solar panels.Nope, they have solar panels that feed back into the power grid, saving them some money at least over here, takes 20 years of so to break even ... But they really feel green from that.> Are you not connected to the Internet? Try reading up on them. They are pretty >good.>Do you really not know about solar panels or are you just trolling?So give us your kWh for 75 miles, and then find the best solar panel online you can find and give us the total surface area you need. You can look up panel efficiency / sun online for you location. and do the math HERE (if you can ;-)) If not you are just clueless. Looks like you never even had a solar panel. Not holding my breath :-)
Reply by ●September 5, 20212021-09-05
