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impedance meter to test car battery

Started by Jamie M December 29, 2019
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 7:02:27 AM UTC-5, Tauno Voipio wrote:
> On 1.1.20 22:09, Whoey Louie wrote: > > On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 2:27:01 PM UTC-5, Tauno Voipio wrote: > >> On 1.1.20 16:53, Whoey Louie wrote: > >>> On Tuesday, December 31, 2019 at 7:33:42 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote: > >>>> On Tuesday, December 31, 2019 at 12:23:49 PM UTC-5, Whoey Louie wrote: > >>>>> On Monday, December 30, 2019 at 5:25:55 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote: > >>>>>> On Monday, December 30, 2019 at 3:01:02 PM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote: > >>>>>>> On 2019-12-30, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> How much is a supercapacitor that will have a useful capacity at that voltage? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Not sure how the battery and supercap will interact. On discharge, > >>>>>>>> the cap will supply current at a decreasing voltage, so the battery > >>>>>>>> won't supply much current until the voltage starts to drop. As the > >>>>>>>> battery voltage starts to drop the battery will drain down. Once the > >>>>>>>> cranking stops and the alternator starts to charge, the cap will still > >>>>>>>> be at a low voltage and will suck up all the current. Do you know if > >>>>>>>> the electronics in the alternator will prevent damage by charging a > >>>>>>>> very high current into a low voltage? Will the current be limited? > >>>>>>>> Will the alternator not try to raise the voltage immediately? I don't > >>>>>>>> really know how the electronics in the alternator is designed. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> You seem to have forgotten that altenators are current sources, > >>>>>>> incapable of producing more than the rated current. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If it is a current source, then it can be equated to a voltage source with a high value series resistor. > >>>>> > >>>>> Say what? The current would then decline rapidly with any applied load. > >>>>> That isn't a current source. > >>>> > >>>> Ok, if you say so Always Wrong. > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>> > >>> > >>> And what exactly was that about? A current source most definitely does not > >>> look anything like a voltage source with a high value resistor is series. > >>> It's not clear exactly what the poster who said alternators are a > >>> current source meant. If he meant they behave similar to an ideal > >>> current source, that's wrong too. They look more like a voltage source, > >>> with the alternator/VR trying to maintain a constant voltage. A current > >>> source puts out a fixed current, regardless of the voltage or load. > >> > >> > >> You are mistaken. Please get an elementary textbook on basic electronic > >> theory and look up de Thevenin's and Norton's theorems. > >> > >> -- > >> > >> -TV > > > > I'm totally familiar with Thevenin and Norton equivalents. Neither has > > anything to do with some power source behaving like a *current source*. > > Why would an alternator or any electric power source be considered > > a "current source", when it can be modeled using either voltage sources > > or current sources? Hello? An alternator is only a current source > > in the same sense that a battery, a capacitor, or a static spark is > > a "current source". They all deliver current, sure. But so, what? > > When one starts talking about something being a "current source' in > > the context of it's output characteristics, that implies that they are > > saying it's behaving like an ideal current source or similar to one. > > Which is one that > > delivers a constant current regardless of load. That most certainly > > is NOT a car alternator. Cars have VOLTAGE regulators, which is a > > clue. They behave more like an ideal voltage source, seeking to > > keep the VOLTAGE within a target rangd. Nor is it like a voltage > > source in series with a > > high value resistor, which the village idiot put forth. That is beyond > > stupid. So sad that we have people here commenting on electronics, > > when they don't even have a grasp of the very basics of electricity 101. > > > For one last time: > > The theorems prove that a voltage source with an output series impedance > is indistinguishable from an equivalent current source with an output > parallel admittance. All real voltage sources have some output impedance > and all real current sources have some output admittance. > > A question: > > We have two black boxes, one containing a voltage source and the other > containing a current source. The boxes cannot be opened. When measured > from the output terminals, the open-circuit voltage is 1V and the > short-circuit current is 1A. Which box contains which source? > > -- > > -TV
In electrical engineering, when one refers to something as a "current source", what do they typically mean: A - the simple most basic interpretation, which is that any circuit with a power source has current flowing, eg battery, cap, lightning bolt. B - that the power source they are talking about behaves similar to an ideal current source, ie where the current is fixed, ie it doesn't vary or doesn't vary much with respect to any load? I vote for B. In which case, an alternator does not look like a current source. Is it still sourcing current, just like a battery, cap, or lightning bolt? Sure.
On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 7:52:39 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 7:13:42 PM UTC-5, Whoey Louie wrote: > > On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 3:50:55 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote: > > > On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 9:53:51 AM UTC-5, Whoey Louie wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, December 31, 2019 at 7:33:42 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote: > > > > > On Tuesday, December 31, 2019 at 12:23:49 PM UTC-5, Whoey Louie wrote: > > > > > > On Monday, December 30, 2019 at 5:25:55 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If it is a current source, then it can be equated to a voltage source with a high value series resistor. > > > > > > > > > > > > Say what? The current would then decline rapidly with any applied load. > > > > > > That isn't a current source. > > > > > > > > > > Ok, if you say so Always Wrong. > > > > > > > > And what exactly was that about? A current source most definitely does not > > > > look anything like a voltage source with a high value resistor is series. > > > > > > Ok, so now rather than admit you were wrong and move on from there, you are retrenching by trying to ignore what you posted. > > > > > > You are so much like the Always Wrong who you love to scorn. > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Rick C. > > > > > > --- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging > > > --- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209 > > > > > > Heh genius. You claim that an auto alternator behaves like a current > > source with a high value resistor. I say you're full of baloney, it > > behaves like a VOLTAGE SOURCE. I can give you the model using a voltage > > source. Take an ideal voltage source of value 15V in series with a > > 0.025 resistor. With a load of 1 amp, the alternator puts out ~15V. > > With a load of 100 amps, it puts out 12.5V. > > > > Now provide us with the values for your current source and high value > > resistor that you claim model it. > > You need to read the posts you respond to as well as your own. I never made the claim you say I did. You meanwhile incorrectly said a current source is not equivalent to a voltage source in series with a high value resistance. > > Just read the posts quoted above. It's that simple, Always Wrong. > > -- > > Rick C. > > --+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging > --+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Let's recap: Jason posted: "You seem to have forgotten that altenators are current sources, incapable of producing more than the rated current." OK, what does that mean? If he's saying an alternator supplies current, then it's pretty silly. So too does any power source, so why make that statement? It sure seems that he was saying that an alternator behaves similar to an IDEAL CURRENT SOURCE, where the output current if fixed, or in a tight range, regardless of the load. You replied with: "If it is a current source, then it can be equated to a voltage source with a high value series resistor. " So, clearly you interpreted his post the same way I did, that he means it behaves like a ideal current source. Otherwise you would not have to say "if it's a current source", because we all know that there is current flowing in any alternator. And then you claimed that if it's a current source, then it can be equated with a voltage source in series with a high value resistor. Just think what that means. What's a "high value" resistor? 1K ohms? An alternator putting out 100 amps would then produce a voltage of 100kv across that resistor. Your voltage source wouldn't be 12 - 15V, it would have to be 100KV, across a 1K resistor, to give you a current source of 100A. The open circuit voltage would be 100KV. That sure isn't any car alternator I've ever seen. The bottom line is an alternator/VR behaves similar to an ideal voltage source, it tries to maintain constant voltage, not constant current, which is what an ideal current source would do. And if you want to model it, you can do it with an ideal voltage source in series with a very low value resistor or you can do the Norton equivalent, which would be a current source with a very low value resistor in PARALLEL.
Whoey Louie <trader4@optonline.net> wrote in
news:df21adea-440a-4a38-87a1-5df2382c54e4@googlegroups.com: 

> On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 7:02:27 AM UTC-5, Tauno Voipio > wrote: >> On 1.1.20 22:09, Whoey Louie wrote: >> > On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 2:27:01 PM UTC-5, Tauno Voipio >> > wrote: >> >> On 1.1.20 16:53, Whoey Louie wrote: >> >>> On Tuesday, December 31, 2019 at 7:33:42 PM UTC-5, Rick C >> >>> wrote: >> >>>> On Tuesday, December 31, 2019 at 12:23:49 PM UTC-5, Whoey >> >>>> Louie wrote: >> >>>>> On Monday, December 30, 2019 at 5:25:55 PM UTC-5, Rick C >> >>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>> On Monday, December 30, 2019 at 3:01:02 PM UTC-5, Jasen >> >>>>>> Betts wrote: >> >>>>>>> On 2019-12-30, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> >> >>>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> How much is a supercapacitor that will have a useful >> >>>>>>>>>> capacity at that voltage? >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Not sure how the battery and supercap will interact. On >> >>>>>>>> discharge, the cap will supply current at a decreasing >> >>>>>>>> voltage, so the battery won't supply much current until >> >>>>>>>> the voltage starts to drop. As the battery voltage >> >>>>>>>> starts to drop the battery will drain down. Once the >> >>>>>>>> cranking stops and the alternator starts to charge, the >> >>>>>>>> cap will still be at a low voltage and will suck up all >> >>>>>>>> the current. Do you know if the electronics in the >> >>>>>>>> alternator will prevent damage by charging a >> >>>>>>>> very high current into a low voltage? Will the current >> >>>>>>>> be limited? Will the alternator not try to raise the >> >>>>>>>> voltage immediately? I don't really know how the >> >>>>>>>> electronics in the alternator is designed. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> You seem to have forgotten that altenators are current >> >>>>>>> sources, incapable of producing more than the rated >> >>>>>>> current. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> If it is a current source, then it can be equated to a >> >>>>>> voltage source with a high value series resistor. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Say what? The current would then decline rapidly with any >> >>>>> applied load. That isn't a current source. >> >>>> >> >>>> Ok, if you say so Always Wrong. >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> And what exactly was that about? A current source most >> >>> definitely does not look anything like a voltage source with >> >>> a high value resistor is series. It's not clear exactly what >> >>> the poster who said alternators are a current source meant. >> >>> If he meant they behave similar to an ideal current source, >> >>> that's wrong too. They look more like a voltage source, >> >>> with the alternator/VR trying to maintain a constant voltage. >> >>> A current source puts out a fixed current, regardless of the >> >>> voltage or load. >> >> >> >> >> >> You are mistaken. Please get an elementary textbook on basic >> >> electronic theory and look up de Thevenin's and Norton's >> >> theorems. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> -TV >> > >> > I'm totally familiar with Thevenin and Norton equivalents. >> > Neither has anything to do with some power source behaving like >> > a *current source*. Why would an alternator or any electric >> > power source be considered a "current source", when it can be >> > modeled using either voltage sources or current sources? >> > Hello? An alternator is only a current source in the same >> > sense that a battery, a capacitor, or a static spark is a >> > "current source". They all deliver current, sure. But so, >> > what? When one starts talking about something being a "current >> > source' in the context of it's output characteristics, that >> > implies that they are saying it's behaving like an ideal >> > current source or similar to one. Which is one that >> > delivers a constant current regardless of load. That most >> > certainly is NOT a car alternator. Cars have VOLTAGE >> > regulators, which is a clue. They behave more like an ideal >> > voltage source, seeking to keep the VOLTAGE within a target >> > rangd. Nor is it like a voltage source in series with a >> > high value resistor, which the village idiot put forth. That is >> > beyond stupid. So sad that we have people here commenting on >> > electronics, when they don't even have a grasp of the very >> > basics of electricity 101. >> >> >> For one last time: >> >> The theorems prove that a voltage source with an output series >> impedance is indistinguishable from an equivalent current source >> with an output parallel admittance. All real voltage sources have >> some output impedance and all real current sources have some >> output admittance. >> >> A question: >> >> We have two black boxes, one containing a voltage source and the >> other containing a current source. The boxes cannot be opened. >> When measured from the output terminals, the open-circuit voltage >> is 1V and the short-circuit current is 1A. Which box contains >> which source? >> >> -- >> >> -TV > > In electrical engineering, when one refers to something as a > "current source", what do they typically mean: > > A - the simple most basic interpretation, which is that any > circuit with a power source has current flowing, eg battery, cap, > lightning bolt.
What is it with you where you feel so compelled to include a lightning bolt? They have durations measured in sub-second values. In case you did not pay attention, that falls into electrostatic class, NOT a "current source". A current source is a POWER SUPPLY FEED, from whatever transducer generated it, that can supply a constant current value to a load, regardless of its value, and they are rated at just how high that value can get. That current 'setpoint' is set by the operator. A voltage source supplies a set, pinpoint (specified granularity) voltage to a load, and depending on that load, the current fed through it varies.
> > B - that the power source they are talking about behaves similar > to an ideal current source, ie where the current is fixed, ie it > doesn't vary or doesn't vary much with respect to any load?
I think you got confused over the years. Ideally, you should rehash the entire NEETS course, for starters.
> I vote for B. In which case, an alternator does not look like a > current source. Is it still sourcing current, just like a > battery, cap, or lightning bolt? Sure.
Mumbling about "sourcing current". Sure. An alternator feeding into a car battery sees the battery as a load and presents a voltage to it, If said voltage exceeds that of the battery, 'charging' can take place on those storage cells whose technology supports recharging in the form of current flow. The current varies into that battery depending on the difference between the battery's current charged voltage and the voltage of the charging device. Automotive alternators are for the most part designed to charge a lead acid liquid electrolyte 12V battery at no more than 14.2 Volts. That choice was made so that alternators did not get taxed too much, and that batteries did not get charged at too high a rate (and commonly explode). With the industry selecting 14.2 volts, they held the max charge current on batteries in good operating condition to a known number that fell inside the window of a typical alternator's max output CURRENT. They ALL put out 14.2 volts, but the current varies according to load, which is a function of the current charge state of the battery in volts. So a little bitty car alternator on a huge array of truck batterries WILL *eventually* cahrge them, but that sucker will run hot as a firecracker and fail far earlier than desired. And the batteries will take longer to charge because at the max rate, the alternator still unable to provide full current at 14.2 volts droops a bit until the batteries begin to top off.
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote in news:qul746$1gab$1
@gioia.aioe.org:

> What is it with you where you feel so compelled to include a > lightning bolt? They have durations measured in sub-second values. > In case you did not pay attention, that falls into electrostatic > class, NOT a "current source". > > A current source is a POWER SUPPLY FEED, from whatever transducer > generated it, that can supply a constant current value to a load, > regardless of its value, and they are rated at just how high that > value can get. That current 'setpoint' is set by the operator.
IOW, CONSTANT over time. Not instantaneous.
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 11:52:28 AM UTC-5, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
> Whoey Louie <trader4@optonline.net> wrote in > news:df21adea-440a-4a38-87a1-5df2382c54e4@googlegroups.com: > > > On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 7:02:27 AM UTC-5, Tauno Voipio > > wrote: > >> On 1.1.20 22:09, Whoey Louie wrote: > >> > On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 2:27:01 PM UTC-5, Tauno Voipio > >> > wrote: > >> >> On 1.1.20 16:53, Whoey Louie wrote: > >> >>> On Tuesday, December 31, 2019 at 7:33:42 PM UTC-5, Rick C > >> >>> wrote: > >> >>>> On Tuesday, December 31, 2019 at 12:23:49 PM UTC-5, Whoey > >> >>>> Louie wrote: > >> >>>>> On Monday, December 30, 2019 at 5:25:55 PM UTC-5, Rick C > >> >>>>> wrote: > >> >>>>>> On Monday, December 30, 2019 at 3:01:02 PM UTC-5, Jasen > >> >>>>>> Betts wrote: > >> >>>>>>> On 2019-12-30, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> > >> >>>>>>> wrote: > >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>>> How much is a supercapacitor that will have a useful > >> >>>>>>>>>> capacity at that voltage? > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> Not sure how the battery and supercap will interact. On > >> >>>>>>>> discharge, the cap will supply current at a decreasing > >> >>>>>>>> voltage, so the battery won't supply much current until > >> >>>>>>>> the voltage starts to drop. As the battery voltage > >> >>>>>>>> starts to drop the battery will drain down. Once the > >> >>>>>>>> cranking stops and the alternator starts to charge, the > >> >>>>>>>> cap will still be at a low voltage and will suck up all > >> >>>>>>>> the current. Do you know if the electronics in the > >> >>>>>>>> alternator will prevent damage by charging a > >> >>>>>>>> very high current into a low voltage? Will the current > >> >>>>>>>> be limited? Will the alternator not try to raise the > >> >>>>>>>> voltage immediately? I don't really know how the > >> >>>>>>>> electronics in the alternator is designed. > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> You seem to have forgotten that altenators are current > >> >>>>>>> sources, incapable of producing more than the rated > >> >>>>>>> current. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> If it is a current source, then it can be equated to a > >> >>>>>> voltage source with a high value series resistor. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> Say what? The current would then decline rapidly with any > >> >>>>> applied load. That isn't a current source. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Ok, if you say so Always Wrong. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> -- > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> And what exactly was that about? A current source most > >> >>> definitely does not look anything like a voltage source with > >> >>> a high value resistor is series. It's not clear exactly what > >> >>> the poster who said alternators are a current source meant. > >> >>> If he meant they behave similar to an ideal current source, > >> >>> that's wrong too. They look more like a voltage source, > >> >>> with the alternator/VR trying to maintain a constant voltage. > >> >>> A current source puts out a fixed current, regardless of the > >> >>> voltage or load. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> You are mistaken. Please get an elementary textbook on basic > >> >> electronic theory and look up de Thevenin's and Norton's > >> >> theorems. > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> > >> >> -TV > >> > > >> > I'm totally familiar with Thevenin and Norton equivalents. > >> > Neither has anything to do with some power source behaving like > >> > a *current source*. Why would an alternator or any electric > >> > power source be considered a "current source", when it can be > >> > modeled using either voltage sources or current sources? > >> > Hello? An alternator is only a current source in the same > >> > sense that a battery, a capacitor, or a static spark is a > >> > "current source". They all deliver current, sure. But so, > >> > what? When one starts talking about something being a "current > >> > source' in the context of it's output characteristics, that > >> > implies that they are saying it's behaving like an ideal > >> > current source or similar to one. Which is one that > >> > delivers a constant current regardless of load. That most > >> > certainly is NOT a car alternator. Cars have VOLTAGE > >> > regulators, which is a clue. They behave more like an ideal > >> > voltage source, seeking to keep the VOLTAGE within a target > >> > rangd. Nor is it like a voltage source in series with a > >> > high value resistor, which the village idiot put forth. That is > >> > beyond stupid. So sad that we have people here commenting on > >> > electronics, when they don't even have a grasp of the very > >> > basics of electricity 101. > >> > >> > >> For one last time: > >> > >> The theorems prove that a voltage source with an output series > >> impedance is indistinguishable from an equivalent current source > >> with an output parallel admittance. All real voltage sources have > >> some output impedance and all real current sources have some > >> output admittance. > >> > >> A question: > >> > >> We have two black boxes, one containing a voltage source and the > >> other containing a current source. The boxes cannot be opened. > >> When measured from the output terminals, the open-circuit voltage > >> is 1V and the short-circuit current is 1A. Which box contains > >> which source? > >> > >> -- > >> > >> -TV > > > > In electrical engineering, when one refers to something as a > > "current source", what do they typically mean: > > > > A - the simple most basic interpretation, which is that any > > circuit with a power source has current flowing, eg battery, cap, > > lightning bolt. > > What is it with you where you feel so compelled to include a > lightning bolt? They have durations measured in sub-second values.
The time period is irrelevant of course. Leave it to you to start squabbling though.
> In case you did not pay attention, that falls into electrostatic > class, NOT a "current source".
It's still current flowing. The point, which obviously went right over your head, is that in electrical engineering, when someone talks about a "current source", they typically mean that it behaves similar to an IDEAL CURRENT SOURCE. Otherwise what's the point to calling something a current source? It was about an alternator. It isn't already obvious to everyone here, with no need to state it, that an alternator supplies current?
> > A current source is a POWER SUPPLY FEED, from whatever transducer > generated it, that can supply a constant current value to a load, > regardless of its value, and they are rated at just how high that > value can get. That current 'setpoint' is set by the operator. > > A voltage source supplies a set, pinpoint (specified granularity) > voltage to a load, and depending on that load, the current fed > through it varies. > > > > B - that the power source they are talking about behaves similar > > to an ideal current source, ie where the current is fixed, ie it > > doesn't vary or doesn't vary much with respect to any load? > > I think you got confused over the years. Ideally, you should > rehash the entire NEETS course, for starters.
No confusion here. You're the one wandering in the wilderness.
> > > I vote for B. In which case, an alternator does not look like a > > current source. Is it still sourcing current, just like a > > battery, cap, or lightning bolt? Sure. > > Mumbling about "sourcing current". Sure. > > An alternator feeding into a car battery sees the battery as a load > and presents a voltage to it, If said voltage exceeds that of the > battery, 'charging' can take place on those storage cells whose > technology supports recharging in the form of current flow. The > current varies into that battery depending on the difference between > the battery's current charged voltage and the voltage of the charging > device. Automotive alternators are for the most part designed to > charge a lead acid liquid electrolyte 12V battery at no more than > 14.2 Volts. That choice was made so that alternators did not get > taxed too much, and that batteries did not get charged at too high a > rate (and commonly explode). With the industry selecting 14.2 volts, > they held the max charge current on batteries in good operating > condition to a known number that fell inside the window of a typical > alternator's max output CURRENT. > They ALL put out 14.2 volts, but the current varies according to > load, which is a function of the current charge state of the battery > in volts. So a little bitty car alternator on a huge array of truck > batterries WILL *eventually* cahrge them, but that sucker will run > hot as a firecracker and fail far earlier than desired. And the > batteries will take longer to charge because at the max rate, the > alternator still unable to provide full current at 14.2 volts droops > a bit until the batteries begin to top off.
Thank you for all that, Capt Obvious. It added nothing.
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 11:59:20 AM UTC-5, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
> DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote in news:qul746$1gab$1 > @gioia.aioe.org: > > > What is it with you where you feel so compelled to include a > > lightning bolt? They have durations measured in sub-second values. > > In case you did not pay attention, that falls into electrostatic > > class, NOT a "current source". > > > > A current source is a POWER SUPPLY FEED, from whatever transducer > > generated it, that can supply a constant current value to a load, > > regardless of its value, and they are rated at just how high that > > value can get. That current 'setpoint' is set by the operator. > > IOW, CONSTANT over time. Not instantaneous.
Well, that gets back to what one means by a "current source". In any circuit that has current flowing, of course there is a source for the current. It does not have to be constant. On the other hand, if one says an alternator behaves like a current source, then if you're an electrical engineer, that would mean that you're saying it behaves similar to an IDEAL CURRENT SOURCE. And BTW, of course that can vary too. I can draw a circuit with a 100 amp, AC 60 hz ideal current source. Next!
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 11:47:30 AM UTC-5, Whoey Louie wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 7:52:39 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote: > > On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 7:13:42 PM UTC-5, Whoey Louie wrote: > > > On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 3:50:55 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 9:53:51 AM UTC-5, Whoey Louie wrote: > > > > > On Tuesday, December 31, 2019 at 7:33:42 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote: > > > > > > On Tuesday, December 31, 2019 at 12:23:49 PM UTC-5, Whoey Louie wrote: > > > > > > > On Monday, December 30, 2019 at 5:25:55 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If it is a current source, then it can be equated to a voltage source with a high value series resistor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Say what? The current would then decline rapidly with any applied load. > > > > > > > That isn't a current source. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, if you say so Always Wrong. > > > > > > > > > > And what exactly was that about? A current source most definitely does not > > > > > look anything like a voltage source with a high value resistor is series. > > > > > > > > Ok, so now rather than admit you were wrong and move on from there, you are retrenching by trying to ignore what you posted. > > > > > > > > You are so much like the Always Wrong who you love to scorn. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Rick C. > > > > > > > > --- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging > > > > --- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209 > > > > > > > > > Heh genius. You claim that an auto alternator behaves like a current > > > source with a high value resistor. I say you're full of baloney, it > > > behaves like a VOLTAGE SOURCE. I can give you the model using a voltage > > > source. Take an ideal voltage source of value 15V in series with a > > > 0.025 resistor. With a load of 1 amp, the alternator puts out ~15V. > > > With a load of 100 amps, it puts out 12.5V. > > > > > > Now provide us with the values for your current source and high value > > > resistor that you claim model it. > > > > You need to read the posts you respond to as well as your own. I never made the claim you say I did. You meanwhile incorrectly said a current source is not equivalent to a voltage source in series with a high value resistance. > > > > Just read the posts quoted above. It's that simple, Always Wrong. > > > > -- > > > > Rick C. > > > > --+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging > > --+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209 > > Let's recap:
The recap is above. Just read that!
> You replied with: > > "If it is a current source, then it can be equated to a voltage source with a high value series resistor. " > > > So, clearly you interpreted his post the same way I did, that he means > it behaves like a ideal current source. Otherwise you would not have > to say "if it's a current source", because we all know that there is > current flowing in any alternator.
Who cares? What Jason said is not relevant.
> And then you claimed that if it's a current source, then it can be > equated with a voltage source in series with a high value resistor. > Just think what that means. > What's a "high value" resistor? 1K ohms? An alternator putting out > 100 amps would then produce a voltage of 100kv across that resistor. > Your voltage source wouldn't be 12 - 15V, it would have to be 100KV, > across a 1K resistor, to give you a current source of 100A. The open > circuit voltage would be 100KV. That sure isn't any car alternator > I've ever seen.
More divarication.
> The bottom line is an alternator/VR behaves similar to an ideal voltage > source, it tries to maintain constant voltage, not constant current, > which is what an ideal current source would do. And if you want to model > it, you can do it with an ideal voltage source in series with a > very low value resistor or you can do the Norton equivalent, which > would be a current source with a very low value resistor in PARALLEL.
I posted the quotes that were relevant. You are doing the typical Always Wrong thing of micro analyzing every word and twisting the conversation to suit your wants. I only responded that if he were talking about an ideal current source it could be modeled with the Th&eacute;venin equivalent. You replied...
> > > > And what exactly was that about? A current source most definitely does not > > > > look anything like a voltage source with a high value resistor is series.
showing that you didn't understand or know nothing about Th&eacute;venin equivalents. Why not just give up and stop back peddling? Whatever. I generally treat you the same as DLNU, I ignore you both. I'm not sure why I responded. Guess I'm over this pointless discussion with you. Just like Always Wrong you can't admit when you make a mistake, Always Wronger. -- Rick C. -+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 12:57:05 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
> On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 11:47:30 AM UTC-5, Whoey Louie wrote: > > On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 7:52:39 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote: > > > On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 7:13:42 PM UTC-5, Whoey Louie wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 3:50:55 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote: > > > > > On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 9:53:51 AM UTC-5, Whoey Louie wrote: > > > > > > On Tuesday, December 31, 2019 at 7:33:42 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote: > > > > > > > On Tuesday, December 31, 2019 at 12:23:49 PM UTC-5, Whoey Louie wrote: > > > > > > > > On Monday, December 30, 2019 at 5:25:55 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If it is a current source, then it can be equated to a voltage source with a high value series resistor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Say what? The current would then decline rapidly with any applied load. > > > > > > > > That isn't a current source. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, if you say so Always Wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > And what exactly was that about? A current source most definitely does not > > > > > > look anything like a voltage source with a high value resistor is series. > > > > > > > > > > Ok, so now rather than admit you were wrong and move on from there, you are retrenching by trying to ignore what you posted. > > > > > > > > > > You are so much like the Always Wrong who you love to scorn. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Rick C. > > > > > > > > > > --- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging > > > > > --- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209 > > > > > > > > > > > > Heh genius. You claim that an auto alternator behaves like a current > > > > source with a high value resistor. I say you're full of baloney, it > > > > behaves like a VOLTAGE SOURCE. I can give you the model using a voltage > > > > source. Take an ideal voltage source of value 15V in series with a > > > > 0.025 resistor. With a load of 1 amp, the alternator puts out ~15V. > > > > With a load of 100 amps, it puts out 12.5V. > > > > > > > > Now provide us with the values for your current source and high value > > > > resistor that you claim model it. > > > > > > You need to read the posts you respond to as well as your own. I never made the claim you say I did. You meanwhile incorrectly said a current source is not equivalent to a voltage source in series with a high value resistance. > > > > > > Just read the posts quoted above. It's that simple, Always Wrong. > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Rick C. > > > > > > --+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging > > > --+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209 > > > > Let's recap: > > The recap is above. Just read that! > > > > You replied with: > > > > "If it is a current source, then it can be equated to a voltage source with a high value series resistor. " > > > > > > So, clearly you interpreted his post the same way I did, that he means > > it behaves like a ideal current source. Otherwise you would not have > > to say "if it's a current source", because we all know that there is > > current flowing in any alternator. > > Who cares? What Jason said is not relevant. > > > > And then you claimed that if it's a current source, then it can be > > equated with a voltage source in series with a high value resistor. > > Just think what that means. > > What's a "high value" resistor? 1K ohms? An alternator putting out > > 100 amps would then produce a voltage of 100kv across that resistor. > > Your voltage source wouldn't be 12 - 15V, it would have to be 100KV, > > across a 1K resistor, to give you a current source of 100A. The open > > circuit voltage would be 100KV. That sure isn't any car alternator > > I've ever seen. > > More divarication. > > > > The bottom line is an alternator/VR behaves similar to an ideal voltage > > source, it tries to maintain constant voltage, not constant current, > > which is what an ideal current source would do. And if you want to model > > it, you can do it with an ideal voltage source in series with a > > very low value resistor or you can do the Norton equivalent, which > > would be a current source with a very low value resistor in PARALLEL. > > I posted the quotes that were relevant. You are doing the typical Always Wrong thing of micro analyzing every word and twisting the conversation to suit your wants. > > I only responded that if he were talking about an ideal current source it could be modeled with the Th&eacute;venin equivalent. You replied... > > > > > > And what exactly was that about? A current source most definitely does not > > > > > look anything like a voltage source with a high value resistor is series. > > showing that you didn't understand or know nothing about Th&eacute;venin equivalents.
ROFL I know that the Thevenin model for an alternator isn't a voltage source in series with a high value resistor.
> Rick C. > > -+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging > -+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
How's that all that Tesla spamming working for you? Make any money yet?
On 2020-01-01, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 5:01:13 PM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
>> >> that's your limit, more spin won't get you more current. >> > >> > So is the alternator a current source or not? >> >> It's more like a current source than like a voltage source, in that >> when open circuit it produces harmful voltages, but when shorted nothing >> bad happens. > > I don't know that.
still? was my explanation unclear? here's another way to think about it, imagine a gapped transformer where the primary is fed with a constant AC current. the secondary is going to see pretty-much the same as what the altenator stator sees.
> I was simply saying that combining a rather large cap with the > battery an alternator may produce excessive currents.
pigs might fly. -- Jasen.
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 6:31:00 PM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
> On 2020-01-01, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 5:01:13 PM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote: > > >> >> that's your limit, more spin won't get you more current. > >> > > >> > So is the alternator a current source or not? > >> > >> It's more like a current source than like a voltage source, in that > >> when open circuit it produces harmful voltages, but when shorted nothing > >> bad happens. > > > > I don't know that. > > still? was my explanation unclear? > > here's another way to think about it, imagine a gapped transformer > where the primary is fed with a constant AC current. the secondary is > going to see pretty-much the same as what the altenator stator sees. > > > I was simply saying that combining a rather large cap with the > > battery an alternator may produce excessive currents. > > pigs might fly.
If you say so. I will defer to your experience. -- Rick C. -++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209