I use a 1210 X5R 25V 10% MLCC for input DC blocking. Supply is drying up and I want to place an order to support production for a while. In performing a Digikey/Mouser search I see there are now X7R devices in the same footprint. I know the X7R will be more stable under DC voltage which is an advantage *if* there is much DC on the input. The amplifier circuit has a 6 volt DC bias on the input (half way to the +12 volt rail). The caps prevent the input from seeing this bias. The design passes all functional tests in production (including frequency response) with the X5R devices. I'm thinking of making the X7R an alternate device going forward. There are only four devices on the board, so a small increase in price is not so significant. I'm just wondering if there is any technical downside to using the X7R formulation in place of the X5R. Or is the X7R formulation all upside relative to the X5R? Rick C. Tesla referral code -- https://ts.la/richard11209
X5R vs X7R MLCC
Started by ●November 14, 2018
Reply by ●November 14, 20182018-11-14
On 2018-11-14 15:49, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:> I use a 1210 X5R 25V 10% MLCC for input DC blocking. Supply is > drying up and I want to place an order to support production for a > while. In performing a Digikey/Mouser search I see there are now X7R > devices in the same footprint. I know the X7R will be more stable > under DC voltage which is an advantage *if* there is much DC on the > input. The amplifier circuit has a 6 volt DC bias on the input (half > way to the +12 volt rail). The caps prevent the input from seeing > this bias. The design passes all functional tests in production > (including frequency response) with the X5R devices. > > I'm thinking of making the X7R an alternate device going forward. > There are only four devices on the board, so a small increase in > price is not so significant. I'm just wondering if there is any > technical downside to using the X7R formulation in place of the X5R. > Or is the X7R formulation all upside relative to the X5R? >X7R is usually all upside. They are also better at higher temperatures if that's ever a concern.> Rick C. > > Tesla referral code -- https://ts.la/richard11209 >I don't need a Tesla, unless they build mountain bikes :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by ●November 14, 20182018-11-14
On Wednesday, November 14, 2018 at 5:57:10 PM UTC-6, Joerg wrote:> On 2018-11-14 15:49, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote: > > I use a 1210 X5R 25V 10% MLCC for input DC blocking. Supply is > > drying up and I want to place an order to support production for a > > while. In performing a Digikey/Mouser search I see there are now X7R > > devices in the same footprint. I know the X7R will be more stable > > under DC voltage which is an advantage *if* there is much DC on the > > input. The amplifier circuit has a 6 volt DC bias on the input (half > > way to the +12 volt rail). The caps prevent the input from seeing > > this bias. The design passes all functional tests in production > > (including frequency response) with the X5R devices. > > > > I'm thinking of making the X7R an alternate device going forward. > > There are only four devices on the board, so a small increase in > > price is not so significant. I'm just wondering if there is any > > technical downside to using the X7R formulation in place of the X5R. > > Or is the X7R formulation all upside relative to the X5R? > > > > X7R is usually all upside. They are also better at higher temperatures > if that's ever a concern. > > > > Rick C. > > > > Tesla referral code -- https://ts.la/richard11209 > > > > I don't need a Tesla, unless they build mountain bikes :-) > > -- > Regards, Joerg > > http://www.analogconsultants.com/I think someone asked Elon about "scooters" once and he seemed to feel that was "beneath" the image of Tesla while motorcycles and everything large is not. Basically the company is an extension of his ego. But obviously any type of bike they come up with would be battery powered which defeats the whole point of the mountain bike thing. Doesn't mean you don't know anyone interested... I'm just sayin'... Rick C. Tesla referral code -++- https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●November 14, 20182018-11-14
On Wednesday, November 14, 2018 at 6:49:39 PM UTC-5, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:> I use a 1210 X5R 25V 10% MLCC for input DC blocking. Supply is drying up and I want to place an order to support production for a while. In performing a Digikey/Mouser search I see there are now X7R devices in the same footprint. I know the X7R will be more stable under DC voltage which is an advantage *if* there is much DC on the input. The amplifier circuit has a 6 volt DC bias on the input (half way to the +12 volt rail). The caps prevent the input from seeing this bias. The design passes all functional tests in production (including frequency response) with the X5R devices. > > I'm thinking of making the X7R an alternate device going forward. There are only four devices on the board, so a small increase in price is not so significant. I'm just wondering if there is any technical downside to using the X7R formulation in place of the X5R. Or is the X7R formulation all upside relative to the X5R? > > Rick C. > > Tesla referral code -- https://ts.la/richard11209Not sure, with some caps the manufacturer is more important than the number. I've never had any problems with ceramics. We use a lot of x7r 0.1 uF. George H.
Reply by ●November 14, 20182018-11-14
On 2018-11-14 16:02, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:> On Wednesday, November 14, 2018 at 5:57:10 PM UTC-6, Joerg wrote: >> On 2018-11-14 15:49, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote: >>> I use a 1210 X5R 25V 10% MLCC for input DC blocking. Supply is >>> drying up and I want to place an order to support production for >>> a while. In performing a Digikey/Mouser search I see there are >>> now X7R devices in the same footprint. I know the X7R will be >>> more stable under DC voltage which is an advantage *if* there is >>> much DC on the input. The amplifier circuit has a 6 volt DC bias >>> on the input (half way to the +12 volt rail). The caps prevent >>> the input from seeing this bias. The design passes all >>> functional tests in production (including frequency response) >>> with the X5R devices. >>> >>> I'm thinking of making the X7R an alternate device going >>> forward. There are only four devices on the board, so a small >>> increase in price is not so significant. I'm just wondering if >>> there is any technical downside to using the X7R formulation in >>> place of the X5R. Or is the X7R formulation all upside relative >>> to the X5R? >>> >> >> X7R is usually all upside. They are also better at higher >> temperatures if that's ever a concern. >> >> >>> Rick C. >>> >>> Tesla referral code -- https://ts.la/richard11209 >>> >> >> I don't need a Tesla, unless they build mountain bikes :-) >> >> -- Regards, Joerg >> >> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ > > I think someone asked Elon about "scooters" once and he seemed to > feel that was "beneath" the image of Tesla while motorcycles and > everything large is not. Basically the company is an extension of > his ego. > > But obviously any type of bike they come up with would be battery > powered which defeats the whole point of the mountain bike thing. > > Doesn't mean you don't know anyone interested... I'm just sayin'... >It's actually quite a market for mountain biker. I know several who have crossed over to the dark side for mostly medical reasons. One bought a German E-bike, the other built it by himself. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by ●November 14, 20182018-11-14
On Wednesday, November 14, 2018 at 6:14:43 PM UTC-6, George Herold wrote:> On Wednesday, November 14, 2018 at 6:49:39 PM UTC-5, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > I use a 1210 X5R 25V 10% MLCC for input DC blocking. Supply is drying up and I want to place an order to support production for a while. In performing a Digikey/Mouser search I see there are now X7R devices in the same footprint. I know the X7R will be more stable under DC voltage which is an advantage *if* there is much DC on the input. The amplifier circuit has a 6 volt DC bias on the input (half way to the +12 volt rail). The caps prevent the input from seeing this bias. The design passes all functional tests in production (including frequency response) with the X5R devices. > > > > I'm thinking of making the X7R an alternate device going forward. There are only four devices on the board, so a small increase in price is not so significant. I'm just wondering if there is any technical downside to using the X7R formulation in place of the X5R. Or is the X7R formulation all upside relative to the X5R? > > > > Rick C. > > > > Tesla referral code -- https://ts.la/richard11209 > > Not sure, with some caps the manufacturer is more important than the > number. I've never had any problems with ceramics. > We use a lot of x7r 0.1 uF.Yeah, the generic 0.1 uF decoupling caps are already X7R. Much of this board was so tight I would use X5R where I had to so they would fit an 0603 footprint or in this particular case a 1210 footprint (22 uF, 25V). The same part in X7R would have been the next size up. I seem to recall having selected a wrong part that was discovered about a year later, too low a voltage. Even in just that year the density had improved enough so I found a part that was rated to the higher voltage in the same footprint. I think I will buy some reels of X5R parts because of the price, but I will consider X7R if X5R becomes unobtainium. Rick C. Tesla referral code ++++ https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●November 14, 20182018-11-14
On 11/14/18 6:49 PM, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:> I use a 1210 X5R 25V 10% MLCC for input DC blocking. Supply is > drying up and I want to place an order to support production for a > while. In performing a Digikey/Mouser search I see there are now X7R > devices in the same footprint. I know the X7R will be more stable > under DC voltage which is an advantage *if* there is much DC on the > input. The amplifier circuit has a 6 volt DC bias on the input (half > way to the +12 volt rail). The caps prevent the input from seeing > this bias. The design passes all functional tests in production > (including frequency response) with the X5R devices. > > I'm thinking of making the X7R an alternate device going forward. > There are only four devices on the board, so a small increase in > price is not so significant. I'm just wondering if there is any > technical downside to using the X7R formulation in place of the X5R. > Or is the X7R formulation all upside relative to the X5R?Apples to apples, X7R is better, for sure. However, high-density MLCCs are all over the map in performance depending on both manufacturer and part number. You really have to find the characteristic curves to know. We've all been feeling the MLCC shortage this year, so I put up a blog post with links to a bunch of makers' characteristic curves. <https://www.electrooptical.net/News/high-value-ceramic-capacitors-they-stink-and-you-cant-get-them-anyway> Samsung has decent characteristic curves published on Digikey. (Note that it's the characteristics link and not the datasheet link that you want. Cute eh?) Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 http://electrooptical.net http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by ●November 15, 20182018-11-15
On Wednesday, November 14, 2018 at 9:15:54 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:> On 11/14/18 6:49 PM, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote: > > I use a 1210 X5R 25V 10% MLCC for input DC blocking. Supply is > > drying up and I want to place an order to support production for a > > while. In performing a Digikey/Mouser search I see there are now X7R > > devices in the same footprint. I know the X7R will be more stable > > under DC voltage which is an advantage *if* there is much DC on the > > input. The amplifier circuit has a 6 volt DC bias on the input (half > > way to the +12 volt rail). The caps prevent the input from seeing > > this bias. The design passes all functional tests in production > > (including frequency response) with the X5R devices. > > > > I'm thinking of making the X7R an alternate device going forward. > > There are only four devices on the board, so a small increase in > > price is not so significant. I'm just wondering if there is any > > technical downside to using the X7R formulation in place of the X5R. > > Or is the X7R formulation all upside relative to the X5R? > > Apples to apples, X7R is better, for sure. However, high-density MLCCs > are all over the map in performance depending on both manufacturer and > part number. You really have to find the characteristic curves to know. > > We've all been feeling the MLCC shortage this year, so I put up a blog > post with links to a bunch of makers' characteristic curves. > > <https://www.electrooptical.net/News/high-value-ceramic-capacitors-they-stink-and-you-cant-get-them-anyway>Grin.. W. Allen, "The food stinks", "Yeah, and the portions are small." GH> > Samsung has decent characteristic curves published on Digikey. (Note > that it's the characteristics link and not the datasheet link that you > want. Cute eh?) > > Cheers > > Phil Hobbs > > -- > Dr Philip C D Hobbs > Principal Consultant > ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics > Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics > Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 > > http://electrooptical.net > http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by ●November 15, 20182018-11-15
On Wednesday, November 14, 2018 at 7:15:54 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:> On 11/14/18 6:49 PM, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote: > > I use a 1210 X5R 25V 10% MLCC for input DC blocking. Supply is > > drying up and I want to place an order to support production for a > > while. In performing a Digikey/Mouser search I see there are now X7R > > devices in the same footprint. I know the X7R will be more stable > > under DC voltage which is an advantage *if* there is much DC on the > > input. The amplifier circuit has a 6 volt DC bias on the input (half > > way to the +12 volt rail). The caps prevent the input from seeing > > this bias. The design passes all functional tests in production > > (including frequency response) with the X5R devices. > > > > I'm thinking of making the X7R an alternate device going forward. > > There are only four devices on the board, so a small increase in > > price is not so significant. I'm just wondering if there is any > > technical downside to using the X7R formulation in place of the X5R. > > Or is the X7R formulation all upside relative to the X5R? > > Apples to apples, X7R is better, for sure. However, high-density MLCCs > are all over the map in performance depending on both manufacturer and > part number. You really have to find the characteristic curves to know. > > We've all been feeling the MLCC shortage this year, so I put up a blog > post with links to a bunch of makers' characteristic curves. > > <https://www.electrooptical.net/News/high-value-ceramic-capacitors-they-stink-and-you-cant-get-them-anyway> > > Samsung has decent characteristic curves published on Digikey. (Note > that it's the characteristics link and not the datasheet link that you > want. Cute eh?) > > Cheers > > Phil Hobbs > > -- > Dr Philip C D Hobbs > Principal Consultant > ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics > Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics > Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 > > http://electrooptical.net > http://hobbs-eo.comI was just informed 2 days ago that my Digi-Key order of Samsung caps is on back order :-( Going to run a production batch with untested no-namers...wish me luck!
Reply by ●November 15, 20182018-11-15
On 11/15/18 10:59 AM, DemonicTubes wrote:> On Wednesday, November 14, 2018 at 7:15:54 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote: >> On 11/14/18 6:49 PM, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote: >>> I use a 1210 X5R 25V 10% MLCC for input DC blocking. Supply is >>> drying up and I want to place an order to support production for a >>> while. In performing a Digikey/Mouser search I see there are now X7R >>> devices in the same footprint. I know the X7R will be more stable >>> under DC voltage which is an advantage *if* there is much DC on the >>> input. The amplifier circuit has a 6 volt DC bias on the input (half >>> way to the +12 volt rail). The caps prevent the input from seeing >>> this bias. The design passes all functional tests in production >>> (including frequency response) with the X5R devices. >>> >>> I'm thinking of making the X7R an alternate device going forward. >>> There are only four devices on the board, so a small increase in >>> price is not so significant. I'm just wondering if there is any >>> technical downside to using the X7R formulation in place of the X5R. >>> Or is the X7R formulation all upside relative to the X5R? >> >> Apples to apples, X7R is better, for sure. However, high-density MLCCs >> are all over the map in performance depending on both manufacturer and >> part number. You really have to find the characteristic curves to know. >> >> We've all been feeling the MLCC shortage this year, so I put up a blog >> post with links to a bunch of makers' characteristic curves. >> >> <https://www.electrooptical.net/News/high-value-ceramic-capacitors-they-stink-and-you-cant-get-them-anyway> >> >> Samsung has decent characteristic curves published on Digikey. (Note >> that it's the characteristics link and not the datasheet link that you >> want. Cute eh?) >> >> Cheers >> >> Phil Hobbs >> >> -- >> Dr Philip C D Hobbs >> Principal Consultant >> ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics >> Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics >> Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 >> >> http://electrooptical.net >> http://hobbs-eo.com > > I was just informed 2 days ago that my Digi-Key order of Samsung caps is on back order :-( > > Going to run a production batch with untested no-namers...wish me luck! >I'd test them first. It's not that hard--put two in series and bias the middle. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 http://electrooptical.net https://hobbs-eo.com
