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Why are IGBT's used in ignitions so much?

Started by Joerg April 28, 2018
mandag den 30. april 2018 kl. 18.55.42 UTC+2 skrev Joerg:
> On 2018-04-30 09:47, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > mandag den 30. april 2018 kl. 16.07.59 UTC+2 skrev Joerg: > >> On 2018-04-29 13:24, whit3rd wrote: > >>> On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 1:22:54 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: > >>>> Considering the typical saturation voltages of >1V it doesn't look > >>>> attractive yet they are popular: > >>>> > >>>> https://www.fairchildsemi.com/datasheets/FG/FGD3040G2_F085.pdf > >>>> > >>>> Why? > >>> > >>> Aggressive marketing, obviously. Take the typical IROC (right-out-of-college) > >>> engineer, assign it to make an ignition, and Google will > >>> pull him into a maze of IGBT datasheets. > >>> > >> > >> I remember the days when IGBTs came out and lots of less experienced > >> used them for just about anything. Their designs worked but were > >> expensive in production. > >> > >> > >>> I'm fond of the old Mark10 design (Heathkit, too) with capacitive discharge, > >>> which works fine with forty-year-old SCRs. > >>> > >>> My car has a potted mystery module and was designed with a > >>> LONG harness connection to the coil and reluctor sensor. > >>> > >>> There was no active intelligence used in the parts of the design that I can see. > >>> > >> > >> My Citroen had a really cool system. The coil's secondary fed both plugs > >> in its two-cylinder engine (wasted spark method) which meant no > >> distributor. It also meant no distributor could go bad. However, it > >> could make for interesting effects when hand-cranking it on a cold day. > >> You had to make sure no white or particularly clean car war parked > >> behind and nobody stood near the exhaust. Once the bang was so bad that > >> the 2nd muffler pot fell off and started rolling down the street. > >> Embarrassing. > >> > > > > almost everything now is waste spark with pairs of plugs in series, > > or coil-on-plug > > > > I haven't seen wasted spark in a long time. Coil-on-plug usually had a > personal coil for each plug. Our cars (Mitsubishi Montero Sport and > Toyota Corolla) still use one coil and distributor but they are about 20 > years old.
afaik many VWs use something like this, https://www.carid.com/ic/standard/items/uf-277_6.jpg two coils and build in driver
On 2018-04-30 10:22, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> mandag den 30. april 2018 kl. 18.55.42 UTC+2 skrev Joerg: >> On 2018-04-30 09:47, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: >>> mandag den 30. april 2018 kl. 16.07.59 UTC+2 skrev Joerg: >>>> On 2018-04-29 13:24, whit3rd wrote: >>>>> On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 1:22:54 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: >>>>>> Considering the typical saturation voltages of >1V it doesn't look >>>>>> attractive yet they are popular: >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.fairchildsemi.com/datasheets/FG/FGD3040G2_F085.pdf >>>>>> >>>>>> Why? >>>>> >>>>> Aggressive marketing, obviously. Take the typical IROC (right-out-of-college) >>>>> engineer, assign it to make an ignition, and Google will >>>>> pull him into a maze of IGBT datasheets. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I remember the days when IGBTs came out and lots of less experienced >>>> used them for just about anything. Their designs worked but were >>>> expensive in production. >>>> >>>> >>>>> I'm fond of the old Mark10 design (Heathkit, too) with capacitive discharge, >>>>> which works fine with forty-year-old SCRs. >>>>> >>>>> My car has a potted mystery module and was designed with a >>>>> LONG harness connection to the coil and reluctor sensor. >>>>> >>>>> There was no active intelligence used in the parts of the design that I can see. >>>>> >>>> >>>> My Citroen had a really cool system. The coil's secondary fed both plugs >>>> in its two-cylinder engine (wasted spark method) which meant no >>>> distributor. It also meant no distributor could go bad. However, it >>>> could make for interesting effects when hand-cranking it on a cold day. >>>> You had to make sure no white or particularly clean car war parked >>>> behind and nobody stood near the exhaust. Once the bang was so bad that >>>> the 2nd muffler pot fell off and started rolling down the street. >>>> Embarrassing. >>>> >>> >>> almost everything now is waste spark with pairs of plugs in series, >>> or coil-on-plug >>> >> >> I haven't seen wasted spark in a long time. Coil-on-plug usually had a >> personal coil for each plug. Our cars (Mitsubishi Montero Sport and >> Toyota Corolla) still use one coil and distributor but they are about 20 >> years old. > > afaik many VWs use something like this, https://www.carid.com/ic/standard/items/uf-277_6.jpg > > two coils and build in driver >
Neat. That makes it nice and compact. Since cars don't have hand cranks anymore there won't be less of a chance of a KAPOW out of the exhaust. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 4:22:54 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
> Considering the typical saturation voltages of >1V it doesn't look > attractive yet they are popular: > > https://www.fairchildsemi.com/datasheets/FG/FGD3040G2_F085.pdf > > Why? > > There are plenty of cheap MOSFETs that are in the low tens of milliohms > and thus show only a fraction of the losses while the coil current ramps > up. You'd just have to add a zener from drain to gate in case the spark > plug goes bad, the wire comes off or the controller lets the dwell time > run out of hand. Plus some other gate protection but that's no problem. > > -- > Regards, Joerg > > http://www.analogconsultants.com/
They thought the 'I' in IGBT means Ignition. Usually the simplest explanation is best.
Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> writes:


>My Citroen had a really cool system. The coil's secondary fed both plugs >in its two-cylinder engine (wasted spark method) which meant no >distributor. It also meant no distributor could go bad. However, it >could make for interesting effects when hand-cranking it on a cold day. >You had to make sure no white or particularly clean car war parked >behind and nobody stood near the exhaust. Once the bang was so bad that >the 2nd muffler pot fell off and started rolling down the street. >Embarrassing.
All 17 HP, right? [Joerg is clearly a deux chevaux owner...] -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close.......................... Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 23:54:59 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher
<wb8foz@panix.com> wrote:

>Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> writes: > > >>My Citroen had a really cool system. The coil's secondary fed both plugs >>in its two-cylinder engine (wasted spark method) which meant no >>distributor. It also meant no distributor could go bad. However, it >>could make for interesting effects when hand-cranking it on a cold day. >>You had to make sure no white or particularly clean car war parked >>behind and nobody stood near the exhaust. Once the bang was so bad that >>the 2nd muffler pot fell off and started rolling down the street. >>Embarrassing. > >All 17 HP, right? [Joerg is clearly a deux chevaux owner...]
In the early '60's I had a Renault Dauphine, IIRC, all of 35HP. When we (the Motorola gang) would go out to lunch, Tom Frederiksen would always comment that he felt like he was being chased by 100 lawn mowers ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions, by understanding what nature is hiding. "It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that is the secret of happiness." -James Barrie
On 2018-04-30 15:22, bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 4:22:54 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: >> Considering the typical saturation voltages of >1V it doesn't look >> attractive yet they are popular: >> >> https://www.fairchildsemi.com/datasheets/FG/FGD3040G2_F085.pdf >> >> Why? >> >> There are plenty of cheap MOSFETs that are in the low tens of milliohms >> and thus show only a fraction of the losses while the coil current ramps >> up. You'd just have to add a zener from drain to gate in case the spark >> plug goes bad, the wire comes off or the controller lets the dwell time >> run out of hand. Plus some other gate protection but that's no problem. >> >> -- >> Regards, Joerg >> >> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ > > They thought the 'I' in IGBT means Ignition. Usually the simplest explanation is best. >
<slapping forehead> Ah, yesss, how could I not have known! :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
On 2018-04-30 17:26, Jim Thompson wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 23:54:59 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher > <wb8foz@panix.com> wrote: > >> Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> writes: >> >> >>> My Citroen had a really cool system. The coil's secondary fed both plugs >>> in its two-cylinder engine (wasted spark method) which meant no >>> distributor. It also meant no distributor could go bad. However, it >>> could make for interesting effects when hand-cranking it on a cold day. >>> You had to make sure no white or particularly clean car war parked >>> behind and nobody stood near the exhaust. Once the bang was so bad that >>> the 2nd muffler pot fell off and started rolling down the street. >>> Embarrassing. >> >> All 17 HP, right? [Joerg is clearly a deux chevaux owner...] >
Was, it rusted out from underneath me like French cars tend to do. Only 16 horses though. It had a boxer engine with a whopping 421cc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP_op4yS57w There were some other versions of it :-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKIjQW4qIXE
> In the early '60's I had a Renault Dauphine, IIRC, all of 35HP. > > When we (the Motorola gang) would go out to lunch, Tom Frederiksen > would always comment that he felt like he was being chased by 100 lawn > mowers ;-) >
A blast from the past: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS9xU5vhHJw Duaphines could also be souped up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEDOAoY7Wug -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 12:25:29 -0400, "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net>
wrote:


>Was the first solid state regulator used in a generator or alternator?
I've never seen a solid state regulator used on a generator by an OEM. Alternators had solid state regulators by the mid-70s, at least with some brands. my '75 Datsun 280Z was solid state. I just recently sold my '68 Plymouth Fury. I bought it in the 90s. As was usual for that vintage car, the first thing I did was put a box in the truck with tools and spare parts for all the things that normally go wrong. I was surprised to find that the aftermarket voltage regulator was solid state. John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address
On 02/05/18 04:05, Joerg wrote:
> On 2018-04-30 17:26, Jim Thompson wrote: >> On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 23:54:59 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher >> <wb8foz@panix.com> wrote: >>> Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> writes: >>>> My Citroen had a really cool system. The coil's secondary fed both >>>> plugs >>>> in its two-cylinder engine (wasted spark method) which meant no >>>> distributor. >>> All 17 HP, right? [Joerg is clearly a deux chevaux owner...] > Was, it rusted out from underneath me like French cars tend to do. Only > 16 horses though. It had a boxer engine with a whopping 421cc.
Wasted spark in a 2-cylinder boxer? That's horizontally opposed, but not strictly a boxer. Boxers fire opposite cylinders at the same time.
> Duaphines could also be souped up. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEDOAoY7Wug
Gordini did amazing things with Renault engines. The R8 Gordinis were very dominant in rallying, and the R15 Gordini was a damn fine car too.
On 2018-05-01 15:41, Clifford Heath wrote:
> On 02/05/18 04:05, Joerg wrote: >> On 2018-04-30 17:26, Jim Thompson wrote: >>> On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 23:54:59 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher >>> <wb8foz@panix.com> wrote: >>>> Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> writes: >>>>> My Citroen had a really cool system. The coil's secondary fed both >>>>> plugs >>>>> in its two-cylinder engine (wasted spark method) which meant no >>>>> distributor. >>>> All 17 HP, right? [Joerg is clearly a deux chevaux owner...] >> Was, it rusted out from underneath me like French cars tend to do. >> Only 16 horses though. It had a boxer engine with a whopping 421cc. > > Wasted spark in a 2-cylinder boxer? > That's horizontally opposed, but not strictly a boxer. > Boxers fire opposite cylinders at the same time. >
It was only boxer-inspired. This has a little more info under "Engine": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_2CV
>> Duaphines could also be souped up. >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEDOAoY7Wug > > Gordini did amazing things with Renault engines. > The R8 Gordinis were very dominant in rallying, > and the R15 Gordini was a damn fine car too.
Maybe they were involved in the development of the Renault R5 Alpine? Those were hot cars but the quality wasn't great. They rusted fast. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/