This is a bit of a shot in the dark, but I wonder if anyone has used 'garden variety' APD (Avalanche Photodiodes) in the photon counting mode where they are biased above their breakdown voltage? I just got a quote on some of these, https://www.lasercomponents.com/fileadmin/user_upload/home/Datasheets/lcd/sar-series.pdf The difference between the SAR and SARP looks mostly to be the noise and dark current. (see figs 6,7,8) Oh the SAR500 is $60 for one the SARP500 is $150 and with TEC they are $375 and $670... that is some serious scratch. George H.
Photon counting w/ APD's
Started by ●April 10, 2018
Reply by ●April 10, 20182018-04-10
George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:> This is a bit of a shot in the dark, but I wonder if anyone has used > 'garden variety' APD (Avalanche Photodiodes) in the photon counting > mode where they are biased above their breakdown voltage? > > I just got a quote on some of these, > https://www.lasercomponents.com/fileadmin/user_upload/home/Datasheets/lcd/sar-series.pdf > > The difference between the SAR and SARP looks mostly to be the noise > and dark current. (see figs 6,7,8) > > Oh the SAR500 is $60 for one the SARP500 is $150 > and with TEC they are $375 and $670... that is some serious scratch. > > George H.Why APD's and not MPPC(Silicon Photo Multipliers)? -- Uwe Bonnes bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt --------- Tel. 06151 1623569 ------- Fax. 06151 1623305 ---------
Reply by ●April 10, 20182018-04-10
On Tuesday, April 10, 2018 at 6:39:24 PM UTC-4, Uwe Bonnes wrote:> George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote: > > This is a bit of a shot in the dark, but I wonder if anyone has used > > 'garden variety' APD (Avalanche Photodiodes) in the photon counting > > mode where they are biased above their breakdown voltage? > > > > I just got a quote on some of these, > > https://www.lasercomponents.com/fileadmin/user_upload/home/Datasheets/lcd/sar-series.pdf > > > > The difference between the SAR and SARP looks mostly to be the noise > > and dark current. (see figs 6,7,8) > > > > Oh the SAR500 is $60 for one the SARP500 is $150 > > and with TEC they are $375 and $670... that is some serious scratch. > > > > George H. > > Why APD's and not MPPC(Silicon Photo Multipliers)? > > -- > Uwe Bonnes bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de > > Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt > --------- Tel. 06151 1623569 ------- Fax. 06151 1623305 ---------I need to count photons with some decent efficiency at ~800nm. longer wavelength might work too, but low dark count and high QE is what I need. I should probably get fiber coupling too. It's an entangled photon, exp. You start with a UV laser (~400nm.) with a magic x-tal to phase entangle the down converted 800 nm photons. (I need to read a lot more about it.) George H. I'm going to order
Reply by ●April 10, 20182018-04-10
On 04/10/18 19:03, George Herold wrote:> On Tuesday, April 10, 2018 at 6:39:24 PM UTC-4, Uwe Bonnes wrote: >> George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote: >>> This is a bit of a shot in the dark, but I wonder if anyone has used >>> 'garden variety' APD (Avalanche Photodiodes) in the photon counting >>> mode where they are biased above their breakdown voltage? >>> >>> I just got a quote on some of these, >>> https://www.lasercomponents.com/fileadmin/user_upload/home/Datasheets/lcd/sar-series.pdf >>> >>> The difference between the SAR and SARP looks mostly to be the noise >>> and dark current. (see figs 6,7,8) >>> >>> Oh the SAR500 is $60 for one the SARP500 is $150 >>> and with TEC they are $375 and $670... that is some serious scratch. >>> >>> George H. >> >> Why APD's and not MPPC(Silicon Photo Multipliers)? >> >> -- >> Uwe Bonnes bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de >> >> Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt >> --------- Tel. 06151 1623569 ------- Fax. 06151 1623305 --------- > > I need to count photons with some decent efficiency at ~800nm. > longer wavelength might work too, but low dark count and > high QE is what I need. I should probably get fiber coupling > too. It's an entangled photon, exp. You start with a UV laser > (~400nm.) with a magic x-tal to phase entangle the down converted > 800 nm photons. (I need to read a lot more about it.) > > George H. > > > I'm going to order >Well, "low dark count" and APDs only go together for very permissive values of "low". On a per-area basis, APDs have six orders of magnitude worse dark counts than PMTs, and that's an apples-to-apples comparison: Si APDs and visible-sensitive bialkali PMTs--a 100-um APD has about the same dark count rate as a *FOUR INCH* PMT. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 http://electrooptical.net http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by ●April 10, 20182018-04-10
On Wednesday, April 11, 2018 at 6:30:50 AM UTC+10, George Herold wrote:> This is a bit of a shot in the dark, but I wonder if anyone has used 'garden variety' APD (Avalanche Photodiodes) in the photon counting mode where they > are biased above their breakdown voltage? > > I just got a quote on some of these, > https://www.lasercomponents.com/fileadmin/user_upload/home/Datasheets/lcd/sar-series.pdf > > The difference between the SAR and SARP looks mostly to be the noise and dark > current. (see figs 6,7,8) > > Oh the SAR500 is $60 for one > the SARP500 is $150 > and with TEC they are $375 and $670... that is some serious scratch.I've not used them, but I have had some minor interaction with people who are rather good with them, including Sergio Cova http://www.everyphotoncounts.com/ They have long list of publications. The one I liked used the latching inputs on a 9685 (fast ECL) comparator in an active latch SPAD - which was vaguely similar to something I'd done in a very different context, but I didn't get a citation. Sloman, A.W. and Swords, M.D. "A fast and economical gated discriminator", Journal of Physics E: Scientific Instruments, 11, 521-524 (1978). I can't pick it out of the list - it would have been published some 15 years ago, and I can find a couple of plausible candidates, but nothing really sticks out. http://www.everyphotoncounts.com/pub.php -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●April 11, 20182018-04-11
On Tuesday, April 10, 2018 at 8:13:31 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:> On 04/10/18 19:03, George Herold wrote: > > On Tuesday, April 10, 2018 at 6:39:24 PM UTC-4, Uwe Bonnes wrote: > >> George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote: > >>> This is a bit of a shot in the dark, but I wonder if anyone has used > >>> 'garden variety' APD (Avalanche Photodiodes) in the photon counting > >>> mode where they are biased above their breakdown voltage? > >>> > >>> I just got a quote on some of these, > >>> https://www.lasercomponents.com/fileadmin/user_upload/home/Datasheets/lcd/sar-series.pdf > >>> > >>> The difference between the SAR and SARP looks mostly to be the noise > >>> and dark current. (see figs 6,7,8) > >>> > >>> Oh the SAR500 is $60 for one the SARP500 is $150 > >>> and with TEC they are $375 and $670... that is some serious scratch. > >>> > >>> George H. > >> > >> Why APD's and not MPPC(Silicon Photo Multipliers)? > >> > >> -- > >> Uwe Bonnes bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de > >> > >> Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt > >> --------- Tel. 06151 1623569 ------- Fax. 06151 1623305 --------- > > > > I need to count photons with some decent efficiency at ~800nm. > > longer wavelength might work too, but low dark count and > > high QE is what I need. I should probably get fiber coupling > > too. It's an entangled photon, exp. You start with a UV laser > > (~400nm.) with a magic x-tal to phase entangle the down converted > > 800 nm photons. (I need to read a lot more about it.) > > > > George H. > > > > > > I'm going to order > > > Well, "low dark count" and APDs only go together for very permissive > values of "low". On a per-area basis, APDs have six orders of magnitude > worse dark counts than PMTs, and that's an apples-to-apples comparison: > Si APDs and visible-sensitive bialkali PMTs--a 100-um APD has about the > same dark count rate as a *FOUR INCH* PMT.Right, If you know of a small pmt with quantum efficiency (QE) greater than (?) ~50% at 800 nm I could try that. :^) I still have to understand the experimental details, but I think I'm looking for correlations between two detectors. The higher the QE the less one has to bash on the data with statistics to see a correlation. Obviously dark counts go into that mix too. I hear I can cool 'em down and reduce the dark count. I wonder if one can stick them in LN2? Anyway the people at Laser components were friendly and helpful. I'm going to order some of the APD's to play with. Their fab plant is in Tempe AZ. Maybe I can have Jim T. swing by and steal me a few :^) Here's a long discussion from Kiko at Colgate. (I still have to read and digest most of it.) http://www.colgate.edu/portaldata/imagegallerywww/98c178dc-7e5b-4a04-b0a1-a73abf7f13d5/ImageGallery/correlated-photon-experiments.pdf George H.> > Cheers > > Phil Hobbs > > -- > Dr Philip C D Hobbs > Principal Consultant > ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics > Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics > Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 > > http://electrooptical.net > http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by ●April 11, 20182018-04-11
On Tuesday, April 10, 2018 at 9:57:24 PM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:> On Wednesday, April 11, 2018 at 6:30:50 AM UTC+10, George Herold wrote: > > This is a bit of a shot in the dark, but I wonder if anyone has used 'garden variety' APD (Avalanche Photodiodes) in the photon counting mode where they > > are biased above their breakdown voltage? > > > > I just got a quote on some of these, > > https://www.lasercomponents.com/fileadmin/user_upload/home/Datasheets/lcd/sar-series.pdf > > > > The difference between the SAR and SARP looks mostly to be the noise and dark > > current. (see figs 6,7,8) > > > > Oh the SAR500 is $60 for one > > the SARP500 is $150 > > and with TEC they are $375 and $670... that is some serious scratch. > > I've not used them, but I have had some minor interaction with people who are rather good with them, including Sergio Cova > > http://www.everyphotoncounts.com/ > > They have long list of publications. The one I liked used the latching inputs on a 9685 (fast ECL) comparator in an active latch SPAD - which was vaguely similar to something I'd done in a very different context, but I didn't get a citation. > > Sloman, A.W. and Swords, M.D. "A fast and economical gated discriminator", Journal of Physics E: Scientific Instruments, 11, 521-524 (1978). > > I can't pick it out of the list - it would have been published some 15 years ago, and I can find a couple of plausible candidates, but nothing really sticks out. > > http://www.everyphotoncounts.com/pub.php > > -- > Bill Sloman, SydneyRight, thanks Bill. I've read some of Cova's articles. At some point in the future you can all look forward to me asking about active quenching circuits. :^) George H.
Reply by ●April 11, 20182018-04-11
On Wed, 11 Apr 2018 06:35:11 -0700 (PDT), George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:>On Tuesday, April 10, 2018 at 8:13:31 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote: >> On 04/10/18 19:03, George Herold wrote: >> > On Tuesday, April 10, 2018 at 6:39:24 PM UTC-4, Uwe Bonnes wrote: >> >> George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote: >> >>> This is a bit of a shot in the dark, but I wonder if anyone has used >> >>> 'garden variety' APD (Avalanche Photodiodes) in the photon counting >> >>> mode where they are biased above their breakdown voltage? >> >>> >> >>> I just got a quote on some of these, >> >>> https://www.lasercomponents.com/fileadmin/user_upload/home/Datasheets/lcd/sar-series.pdf >> >>> >> >>> The difference between the SAR and SARP looks mostly to be the noise >> >>> and dark current. (see figs 6,7,8) >> >>> >> >>> Oh the SAR500 is $60 for one the SARP500 is $150 >> >>> and with TEC they are $375 and $670... that is some serious scratch. >> >>> >> >>> George H. >> >> >> >> Why APD's and not MPPC(Silicon Photo Multipliers)? >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Uwe Bonnes bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de >> >> >> >> Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt >> >> --------- Tel. 06151 1623569 ------- Fax. 06151 1623305 --------- >> > >> > I need to count photons with some decent efficiency at ~800nm. >> > longer wavelength might work too, but low dark count and >> > high QE is what I need. I should probably get fiber coupling >> > too. It's an entangled photon, exp. You start with a UV laser >> > (~400nm.) with a magic x-tal to phase entangle the down converted >> > 800 nm photons. (I need to read a lot more about it.) >> > >> > George H. >> > >> > >> > I'm going to order >> > >> Well, "low dark count" and APDs only go together for very permissive >> values of "low". On a per-area basis, APDs have six orders of magnitude >> worse dark counts than PMTs, and that's an apples-to-apples comparison: >> Si APDs and visible-sensitive bialkali PMTs--a 100-um APD has about the >> same dark count rate as a *FOUR INCH* PMT. > >Right, If you know of a small pmt with quantum efficiency (QE) greater than >(?) ~50% at 800 nm I could try that. :^)You might consider using a microchannel plate, like from a night-vision gadget. Since they are area amplifiers, one could possibly be used as two (or more!) detectors. Even a gen-1 night vision thing (they are cheap) could be used as a photon amplifier maybe. Hamamatsu has a tiny MEMS PMT that they don't want to sell. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●April 11, 20182018-04-11
On Wednesday, April 11, 2018 at 11:19:53 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:> On Wed, 11 Apr 2018 06:35:11 -0700 (PDT), George Herold > <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote: > > >On Tuesday, April 10, 2018 at 8:13:31 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote: > >> On 04/10/18 19:03, George Herold wrote: > >> > On Tuesday, April 10, 2018 at 6:39:24 PM UTC-4, Uwe Bonnes wrote: > >> >> George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote: > >> >>> This is a bit of a shot in the dark, but I wonder if anyone has used > >> >>> 'garden variety' APD (Avalanche Photodiodes) in the photon counting > >> >>> mode where they are biased above their breakdown voltage? > >> >>> > >> >>> I just got a quote on some of these, > >> >>> https://www.lasercomponents.com/fileadmin/user_upload/home/Datasheets/lcd/sar-series.pdf > >> >>> > >> >>> The difference between the SAR and SARP looks mostly to be the noise > >> >>> and dark current. (see figs 6,7,8) > >> >>> > >> >>> Oh the SAR500 is $60 for one the SARP500 is $150 > >> >>> and with TEC they are $375 and $670... that is some serious scratch. > >> >>> > >> >>> George H. > >> >> > >> >> Why APD's and not MPPC(Silicon Photo Multipliers)? > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> Uwe Bonnes bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de > >> >> > >> >> Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt > >> >> --------- Tel. 06151 1623569 ------- Fax. 06151 1623305 --------- > >> > > >> > I need to count photons with some decent efficiency at ~800nm. > >> > longer wavelength might work too, but low dark count and > >> > high QE is what I need. I should probably get fiber coupling > >> > too. It's an entangled photon, exp. You start with a UV laser > >> > (~400nm.) with a magic x-tal to phase entangle the down converted > >> > 800 nm photons. (I need to read a lot more about it.) > >> > > >> > George H. > >> > > >> > > >> > I'm going to order > >> > > >> Well, "low dark count" and APDs only go together for very permissive > >> values of "low". On a per-area basis, APDs have six orders of magnitude > >> worse dark counts than PMTs, and that's an apples-to-apples comparison: > >> Si APDs and visible-sensitive bialkali PMTs--a 100-um APD has about the > >> same dark count rate as a *FOUR INCH* PMT. > > > >Right, If you know of a small pmt with quantum efficiency (QE) greater than > >(?) ~50% at 800 nm I could try that. :^) > > You might consider using a microchannel plate, like from a > night-vision gadget. Since they are area amplifiers, one could > possibly be used as two (or more!) detectors.Hmm I don't know about those. (guessing) There is some photocathode, that emits electrons when a photon hits it. In which case it will have the same problem as PMT's. The photocathodes are not that efficient at 800nm. The APD's I'm looking at have a QE of 90%!! at 800nm (For correlations with two detectors it's the square of the QE that I care about, so 10% is the pits.)> > Even a gen-1 night vision thing (they are cheap) could be used as a > photon amplifier maybe. > > Hamamatsu has a tiny MEMS PMT that they don't want to sell.They have some Silicon PM (MPPC) which are arrays of APD's, but the ones I know about are all in the visible... response peaks ~500 nm. https://www.hamamatsu.com/us/en/community/optical_sensors/articles/physics_and_operation_of_mppc/index.html Trolling Hamamatsu, these might be OK. http://www.hamamatsu.com/resources/pdf/ssd/s10341_series_kapd1030e.pdf But no data on operation above the breakdown voltage. George H.> > > -- > > John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc > > lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●April 11, 20182018-04-11
On Wed, 11 Apr 2018 11:19:52 -0700 (PDT), George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:>On Wednesday, April 11, 2018 at 11:19:53 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: >> On Wed, 11 Apr 2018 06:35:11 -0700 (PDT), George Herold >> <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote: >> >> >On Tuesday, April 10, 2018 at 8:13:31 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote: >> >> On 04/10/18 19:03, George Herold wrote: >> >> > On Tuesday, April 10, 2018 at 6:39:24 PM UTC-4, Uwe Bonnes wrote: >> >> >> George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote: >> >> >>> This is a bit of a shot in the dark, but I wonder if anyone has used >> >> >>> 'garden variety' APD (Avalanche Photodiodes) in the photon counting >> >> >>> mode where they are biased above their breakdown voltage? >> >> >>> >> >> >>> I just got a quote on some of these, >> >> >>> https://www.lasercomponents.com/fileadmin/user_upload/home/Datasheets/lcd/sar-series.pdf >> >> >>> >> >> >>> The difference between the SAR and SARP looks mostly to be the noise >> >> >>> and dark current. (see figs 6,7,8) >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Oh the SAR500 is $60 for one the SARP500 is $150 >> >> >>> and with TEC they are $375 and $670... that is some serious scratch. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> George H. >> >> >> >> >> >> Why APD's and not MPPC(Silicon Photo Multipliers)? >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> Uwe Bonnes bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de >> >> >> >> >> >> Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt >> >> >> --------- Tel. 06151 1623569 ------- Fax. 06151 1623305 --------- >> >> > >> >> > I need to count photons with some decent efficiency at ~800nm. >> >> > longer wavelength might work too, but low dark count and >> >> > high QE is what I need. I should probably get fiber coupling >> >> > too. It's an entangled photon, exp. You start with a UV laser >> >> > (~400nm.) with a magic x-tal to phase entangle the down converted >> >> > 800 nm photons. (I need to read a lot more about it.) >> >> > >> >> > George H. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > I'm going to order >> >> > >> >> Well, "low dark count" and APDs only go together for very permissive >> >> values of "low". On a per-area basis, APDs have six orders of magnitude >> >> worse dark counts than PMTs, and that's an apples-to-apples comparison: >> >> Si APDs and visible-sensitive bialkali PMTs--a 100-um APD has about the >> >> same dark count rate as a *FOUR INCH* PMT. >> > >> >Right, If you know of a small pmt with quantum efficiency (QE) greater than >> >(?) ~50% at 800 nm I could try that. :^) >> >> You might consider using a microchannel plate, like from a >> night-vision gadget. Since they are area amplifiers, one could >> possibly be used as two (or more!) detectors. > >Hmm I don't know about those. (guessing) There is some >photocathode, that emits electrons when a photon hits it.Yes. And the electrons get amplified, by a microchannel plate or, in the cheap ones, just by being accelerated by a lot of voltage. The dark emission should be like a PMT which, as Phil notes, is zillions of times better than an APD. In which case>it will have the same problem as PMT's. The photocathodes are not that >efficient at 800nm. The APD's I'm looking at have a QE of 90%!! at >800nm (For correlations with two detectors it's the square of the QE that I care about, so 10% is the pits.) > > >> >> Even a gen-1 night vision thing (they are cheap) could be used as a >> photon amplifier maybe. >> >> Hamamatsu has a tiny MEMS PMT that they don't want to sell. > >They have some Silicon PM (MPPC) which are arrays of APD's, but the >ones I know about are all in the visible... response peaks ~500 nm. > >https://www.hamamatsu.com/us/en/community/optical_sensors/articles/physics_and_operation_of_mppc/index.html > >Trolling Hamamatsu, these might be OK. >http://www.hamamatsu.com/resources/pdf/ssd/s10341_series_kapd1030e.pdf > >But no data on operation above the breakdown voltage. >George H. >> >> >> -- >> >> John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc >> >> lunatic fringe electronicsThe night-vision gadgets usually include a near-IR illuminator, just barely visible, so it's around 800 nm. The classic sniperscopes worked with invisible IR, so the bad guys wouldn't see the immuminator. I have a cheap russian night-vision scope that's great for spying on critters in the back yard at night. Skunks, raccoons, cats, possom, now occasionally coyotes, plus deer and wildcats in Truckee. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing precision measurement jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
