Forums

[Semi-OT] Multisync LCD monitors

Started by Phil Hobbs February 28, 2018
Hi, all,

My shiny new (to me) HP 89441A has an analogue video output, but none of 
my LCD monitors can sync to it--one says "out of range" and the other 
two just sit there sulking.  So I think that its vertical sync is too 
fast for them.

Any recommendations for LCD monitors that can handle Y2K-ish vertical 
sync rates?

Thanks

Phil Hobbs

-- 
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

On Thursday, 1 March 2018 01:12:20 UTC, Phil Hobbs  wrote:
> Hi, all, > > My shiny new (to me) HP 89441A has an analogue video output, but none of > my LCD monitors can sync to it--one says "out of range" and the other > two just sit there sulking. So I think that its vertical sync is too > fast for them. > > Any recommendations for LCD monitors that can handle Y2K-ish vertical > sync rates? > > Thanks > > Phil Hobbs
Pick one at random and it's sync or swim. NT
On 02/28/2018 08:33 PM, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, 1 March 2018 01:12:20 UTC, Phil Hobbs wrote: >> Hi, all, >> >> My shiny new (to me) HP 89441A has an analogue video output, but none of >> my LCD monitors can sync to it--one says "out of range" and the other >> two just sit there sulking. So I think that its vertical sync is too >> fast for them. >> >> Any recommendations for LCD monitors that can handle Y2K-ish vertical >> sync rates? >> >> Thanks >> >> Phil Hobbs > > Pick one at random and it's sync or swim. > > > NT >
<sploosh> Vanished without a trace. ;) Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 http://electrooptical.net http://hobbs-eo.com
On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 20:12:10 -0500, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>My shiny new (to me) HP 89441A has an analogue video output, but none of >my LCD monitors can sync to it--one says "out of range" and the other >two just sit there sulking. So I think that its vertical sync is too >fast for them. > >Any recommendations for LCD monitors that can handle Y2K-ish vertical >sync rates?
The "External Monitor" connector looks like a VGA monitor connector: <https://isurplus.com.au/images/stories/virtuemart/product/HP%2089441A%202.jpg> <http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/89441-90076.pdf> See Pg 7-16. The External Monitor connector is a 15-pin connector with standard VGA pinout. The External Monitor connector can interface with an external, multi-scanning monitor. The monitor must have a 25.5 kHz horizontal scan rate, a 60 Hz vertical refresh rate, and must conform to EIA-343-A standards. That should work with any VGA monitor. My guess(tm) is: 640x480 at 60Hz vertical is 400 * 1.05 * 60 = 25.2 KHz The 1.05 is the blanking interval. I suggest you look at what's coming out of the External Monitor connector with an o-silly scope. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 18:20:40 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

><http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/89441-90076.pdf> >See Pg 7-16. > The External Monitor connector is a 15-pin connector with > standard VGA pinout. The External Monitor connector can > interface with an external, multi-scanning monitor. The > monitor must have a 25.5 kHz horizontal scan rate, a 60 Hz > vertical refresh rate, and must conform to EIA-343-A standards.
>That should work with any VGA monitor. My guess(tm) is: > 640x400 at 60Hz vertical is > 400 * 1.05 * 60 = 25.2 KHz > The 1.05 is the blanking interval. > >I suggest you look at what's coming out of the External Monitor >connector with an o-silly scope.
That's strange. 600x400 is not a standard VESA mode and is NOT listed in the typical VGA timing tables: <http://martin.hinner.info/vga/timing.html> Also, the vertical sync rates do not go down to 25.5KHz. Skimming the list, it looks like 640x480 has the lowest horiz sync frequency of 31.5KHz. My 1.05 fudge was off. This calculator produces 24.90KHz for 640x400: <https://arachnoid.com/modelines/> 25.5KHz is something that was used in CGA/EGA arcade game monitors. Maybe this converter? (Not sure): <https://www.amazon.com/Paddsun-Converter-Output-Monitor-GBS-8200/dp/B01IBJCAIG> -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 18:48:29 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
(...)

Short list of 3 monitors that go DOWN to 24KHz:
<https://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=5052.0>
Apparently, some early game machines used 24KHz.


Oh swell, change everything.  
We now have a different sweep rate in the 2002 spec sheet:
<https://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5965-5425E.pdf>
See Pg 14:
 External monitor output
 Format             Analog plug-compatible with
                      30.15 kHz multi-sync monitors
 Impedance          75 Ohms
 Level              0 to 0.7 V
 Display rate       57.43 Hz
 Horizontal         30.15 kHz
   refresh rate  
 Horizontal lines   400

So, now it has to work at 30.15KHz and 60Hz.  That's close enough to
VGA 31.5 or 31.8KHz that any multisync monitor should work.



-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
"Jeff Liebermann"  wrote in message 
news:9toe9dthg43fbv1u179gd0qn0n0i2ddcd3@4ax.com...

On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 18:20:40 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

><http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/89441-90076.pdf> >See Pg 7-16. > The External Monitor connector is a 15-pin connector with > standard VGA pinout. The External Monitor connector can > interface with an external, multi-scanning monitor. The > monitor must have a 25.5 kHz horizontal scan rate, a 60 Hz > vertical refresh rate, and must conform to EIA-343-A standards.
>That should work with any VGA monitor. My guess(tm) is: > 640x400 at 60Hz vertical is > 400 * 1.05 * 60 = 25.2 KHz > The 1.05 is the blanking interval. > >I suggest you look at what's coming out of the External Monitor >connector with an o-silly scope.
That's strange. 600x400 is not a standard VESA mode and is NOT listed in the typical VGA timing tables: <http://martin.hinner.info/vga/timing.html> Also, the vertical sync rates do not go down to 25.5KHz. Skimming the list, it looks like 640x480 has the lowest horiz sync frequency of 31.5KHz. My 1.05 fudge was off. This calculator produces 24.90KHz for 640x400: <https://arachnoid.com/modelines/> 25.5KHz is something that was used in CGA/EGA arcade game monitors. Maybe this converter? (Not sure): <https://www.amazon.com/Paddsun-Converter-Output-Monitor-GBS-8200/dp/B01IBJCAIG> -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 ====================================================================== 640x400 was the highest resolution mode on the Amiga 1000 but since it was NTSC compatible I don't think the horizontal sync was 25.5 kHz. Had a pipe freeze and flood my garage three years ago, and even though it didn't get wet I went ahead and scrapped my A1000 and Amiga monitor in the cleanup. Lots of sentimental value (wrote my PhD thesis on it in 1988) but time passes :-). -- Regards, Carl Ijames
On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 6:20:46 PM UTC-8, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 20:12:10 -0500, Phil Hobbs > <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote: > > >My shiny new (to me) HP 89441A has an analogue video output, but none of > >my LCD monitors can sync to it-
> The External Monitor connector is a 15-pin connector with > standard VGA pinout. The External Monitor connector can > interface with an external, multi-scanning monitor. The > monitor must have a 25.5 kHz horizontal scan rate, a 60 Hz > vertical refresh rate, and must conform to EIA-343-A standards. > > That should work with any VGA monitor. My guess(tm) is: > 640x480 at 60Hz vertical is > 400 * 1.05 * 60 = 25.2 KHz > The 1.05 is the blanking interval. > > I suggest you look at what's coming out of the External Monitor > connector with an o-silly scope.
The important pins are #4 &10 (ground), #2 (green), #13 (Hsync) and #14 (Vsync) and it may be necessary to go into the monitor menu to set a sync mode. If it's old enough, it could have sync-on-green, or could use some other unusual sync-signal codings. New VGA implementations use digital signalling on pins 12 and 15 to do device configuration, but (ideally) your monitor has a menu that can be used instead.. When digital communication doesn't happen, lots of video just ... doesn't show.
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 18:48:29 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> > wrote: > (...)
> Short list of 3 monitors that go DOWN to 24KHz: > <https://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=5052.0> > Apparently, some early game machines used 24KHz.
> Oh swell, change everything. > We now have a different sweep rate in the 2002 spec sheet: > <https://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5965-5425E.pdf> > See Pg 14: > External monitor output > Format Analog plug-compatible with > 30.15 kHz multi-sync monitors > Impedance 75 Ohms > Level 0 to 0.7 V > Display rate 57.43 Hz > Horizontal 30.15 kHz > refresh rate > Horizontal lines 400
> So, now it has to work at 30.15KHz and 60Hz. That's close enough to > VGA 31.5 or 31.8KHz that any multisync monitor should work.
I ask a favor. Can you post the search string along with the results? I had tried to find info on 25kHz monitors before your post, and my results were dismal to none. You know, instead of working for a living, you should write a book on how you do your search strategies. You could call it "Google-Fu for the smart people". (XXX for Dummies is already taken.) You already know how to find the cheapest book dealer, and how to sell it on Amazon. You would become world famous and the richest person on the planet. Businessmen and imnportant politicians would come to you asking for help. They can afford any price you ask. This is an opportunity you cannot afford to miss. You have special skills that nobody else has, and it's time to turn it into profit. The world is yours if you will just reach out and take it. Need I say more?
On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 06:16:44 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote: > >> On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 18:48:29 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> >> wrote: >> (...) > >> Short list of 3 monitors that go DOWN to 24KHz: >> <https://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=5052.0> >> Apparently, some early game machines used 24KHz. > > >> Oh swell, change everything. >> We now have a different sweep rate in the 2002 spec sheet: >> <https://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5965-5425E.pdf> >> See Pg 14: >> External monitor output >> Format Analog plug-compatible with >> 30.15 kHz multi-sync monitors >> Impedance 75 Ohms >> Level 0 to 0.7 V >> Display rate 57.43 Hz >> Horizontal 30.15 kHz >> refresh rate >> Horizontal lines 400 > >> So, now it has to work at 30.15KHz and 60Hz. That's close enough to >> VGA 31.5 or 31.8KHz that any multisync monitor should work.
>I ask a favor. Can you post the search string along with the results? I had >tried to find info on 25kHz monitors before your post, and my results were >dismal to none.
Well, I noticed that everyone was rounding off the various frequencies. I was originally looking for anything that would sync down to 25.5Hz. So, I searched Google for: <https://www.google.com/search?q=26+khz+video+horizontal> <https://www.google.com/search?q=25+khz+video+horizontal> <https://www.google.com/search?q=24+khz+video+horizontal> The last search produced this page: <https://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=5052.0> which provided the game connection. However, all this may have been wasted since I found the 2002 specifications for the Agilent 89441A, which are quite different. Phil gets to measure the frequencies with an oscilloscope to see which one is correct. I don't believe that HP would use a non-standard 640x400 Amiga monitor but I've seen stranger things.
>You know, instead of working for a living, you should write a book on how >you do your search strategies. You could call it "Google-Fu for the smart >people". (XXX for Dummies is already taken.)
I actually started such a document. It won't be a book but more like a web page. In the distant past, I did the tech edits on an SCO Unix book. I really don't want to repeat that nightmare. Notice that I've reduced the Google search string and other URL's to just what is needed to perform the search. The tracking info, unique identifier, and such are not needed. If ever throw together a web page, that will be a key part. The rest is technical vocabulary expansion. You can't search for something if you don't know what it's called. So, I do a fair amount of buzzword and acronym excavation before I do the actual search. Lastly, I prefer to do image searches. I picture is worth 1 kilo-word. My first posting in this thread included a link to a photo of the back of the 89441A. From the original question, I thought it has an RCA phono or BNC connector with composite video. Although VGA is analog, it wasn't obvious until I saw the rear panel connector. I hope this helps.
>You already know how to find the cheapest book dealer, and how to sell it >on Amazon. You would become world famous and the richest person on the >planet. Businessmen and imnportant politicians would come to you asking for >help. They can afford any price you ask.
Sigh. I do not want to be famous and don't need to be the richest person on the planet. Fame and fortune tend to fleeting. I don't want to attract politicians and other vermin. They may be able to afford my exorbitant consulting rates, but that's useless if they don't bother to pay their bills. My worst payers are my wealthy clients and customers.
>This is an opportunity you cannot afford to miss. You have special skills >that nobody else has, and it's time to turn it into profit. The world is >yours if you will just reach out and take it.
I have most of what I want in life. If you want to motivate me, it will take something quite different from flattery. Try to work out what might motivate me, what makes me run, why I do things, and what gets my attention. Just one problem. Even if you guess correctly, I won't admit it. To make it easier, ask yourself a simple question, "What problem is he trying to solve"? If you can work that out, the other parts of the puzzle will easily fall into place.
>Need I say more?
I don't know. It's not my decision to make. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558