On 02/11/17 15:09, amdx wrote:> On 11/1/2017 8:44 PM, rickman wrote: >> amdx wrote on 11/1/2017 8:42 PM: >>> Well not a exactly a vacuum, they fill it with helium. >>> "...NASA’s Ames Research Center is going back to the future with its new >>> vacuum transistor — a nanometer-scale vacuum tube that, in early >>> testing, >>> has reached speeds of up to 460GHz." >>>> https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/185027-the-vacuum-tube-strikes-back-nasas-tiny-460ghz-vacuum-transistor-that-could-one-day-replace-silicon-fets >>>> >>>> >>> >>> And for the audiophools, > There’s no word on whether these >>> vacuum-channel >>> transistors will allow for the creation of small, modern audio >>> amplifiers >>> that sound like original tube amps — but maybe! >> >> Why would anyone care if they sound like tube amps? We can get all >> the tube amps we want. >> >> I thought they had recreated the sound of tubes digitally, no? >> > That was a bit of a joke. As I understand, in blind tests golden hears > do no better than chance on A/B listening tests. The difference becomes > noticeable only when over driven then the tube amps have a preferred > sound over transistors. > But, my ears rolloff at about 11kHz... > My 20 year old daughter didn't like the 15,750hz coming from an old TV > we had. > MikekI thought that there were two real parts to the "tube sound" (excluding the imaginary parts) - a bit of second order distortion, and nicer behaviour near saturation (with non-linear behaviour that gives less harsh cutoffs). The first effect is audible and apparently can be easily identified by people used to tube amps - I am neither an audiophool or an audiophile, and can't talk from personal experience. It is, of course, purely subjective whether you like this added distortion or not. The second effect means you don't need such an over-dimensioned amp with tubes when you want to get drums and cymbals to sound right (as they can give volume peaks that are much higher than the average level). Both of these effects can be achieved in transistor amps, but need something a bit more than a simple A/B design.
460GHz Vacuum Transistor
Started by ●November 1, 2017
Reply by ●November 2, 20172017-11-02
Reply by ●November 2, 20172017-11-02
On Thursday, 2 November 2017 15:03:16 UTC, David Brown wrote:> On 02/11/17 15:09, amdx wrote: > > On 11/1/2017 8:44 PM, rickman wrote: > >> amdx wrote on 11/1/2017 8:42 PM:> >>> And for the audiophools, > There’s no word on whether these > >>> vacuum-channel > >>> transistors will allow for the creation of small, modern audio > >>> amplifiers > >>> that sound like original tube amps — but maybe! > >> > >> Why would anyone care if they sound like tube amps? We can get all > >> the tube amps we want. > >> > >> I thought they had recreated the sound of tubes digitally, no? > >> > > That was a bit of a joke. As I understand, in blind tests golden hears > > do no better than chance on A/B listening tests. The difference becomes > > noticeable only when over driven then the tube amps have a preferred > > sound over transistors. > > But, my ears rolloff at about 11kHz... > > My 20 year old daughter didn't like the 15,750hz coming from an old TV > > we had. > > Mikek > > I thought that there were two real parts to the "tube sound" (excluding > the imaginary parts) - a bit of second order distortion, and nicer > behaviour near saturation (with non-linear behaviour that gives less > harsh cutoffs). > > The first effect is audible and apparently can be easily identified by > people used to tube amps - I am neither an audiophool or an audiophile, > and can't talk from personal experience. It is, of course, purely > subjective whether you like this added distortion or not. > > The second effect means you don't need such an over-dimensioned amp with > tubes when you want to get drums and cymbals to sound right (as they can > give volume peaks that are much higher than the average level). > > Both of these effects can be achieved in transistor amps, but need > something a bit more than a simple A/B design.There's another issue that affects the sound with popular non-hifi valve kit: 50/100Hz modulation. I've reproduced the effect with a basic audio amp IC. It does make a fair difference. NT
Reply by ●November 2, 20172017-11-02
Den torsdag den 2. november 2017 kl. 16.03.16 UTC+1 skrev David Brown:> On 02/11/17 15:09, amdx wrote: > > On 11/1/2017 8:44 PM, rickman wrote: > >> amdx wrote on 11/1/2017 8:42 PM: > >>> Well not a exactly a vacuum, they fill it with helium. > >>> "...NASA’s Ames Research Center is going back to the future with its new > >>> vacuum transistor — a nanometer-scale vacuum tube that, in early > >>> testing, > >>> has reached speeds of up to 460GHz." > >>>> https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/185027-the-vacuum-tube-strikes-back-nasas-tiny-460ghz-vacuum-transistor-that-could-one-day-replace-silicon-fets > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> And for the audiophools, > There’s no word on whether these > >>> vacuum-channel > >>> transistors will allow for the creation of small, modern audio > >>> amplifiers > >>> that sound like original tube amps — but maybe! > >> > >> Why would anyone care if they sound like tube amps? We can get all > >> the tube amps we want. > >> > >> I thought they had recreated the sound of tubes digitally, no? > >> > > That was a bit of a joke. As I understand, in blind tests golden hears > > do no better than chance on A/B listening tests. The difference becomes > > noticeable only when over driven then the tube amps have a preferred > > sound over transistors. > > But, my ears rolloff at about 11kHz... > > My 20 year old daughter didn't like the 15,750hz coming from an old TV > > we had. > > Mikek > > I thought that there were two real parts to the "tube sound" (excluding > the imaginary parts) - a bit of second order distortion, and nicer > behaviour near saturation (with non-linear behaviour that gives less > harsh cutoffs).second or third order has to do with symmetry in the amplifier, not if it's made with tubes or transistors> > The first effect is audible and apparently can be easily identified by > people used to tube amps - I am neither an audiophool or an audiophile, > and can't talk from personal experience. It is, of course, purely > subjective whether you like this added distortion or not.except for the gain stage in a guitar amplifier there is no reason to add distortion, the weak link is going to be the speakers anyway> > The second effect means you don't need such an over-dimensioned amp with > tubes when you want to get drums and cymbals to sound right (as they can > give volume peaks that are much higher than the average level).tube amps are big a heavy, and power is hardly a problem anymore
Reply by ●November 2, 20172017-11-02
On Thursday, 2 November 2017 16:49:20 UTC, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:> Den torsdag den 2. november 2017 kl. 16.03.16 UTC+1 skrev David Brown:> > The first effect is audible and apparently can be easily identified by > > people used to tube amps - I am neither an audiophool or an audiophile, > > and can't talk from personal experience. It is, of course, purely > > subjective whether you like this added distortion or not. > > except for the gain stage in a guitar amplifier there is no reason to add distortion, the weak link is going to be the speakers anywaydistortion is deliberately used for a few reasons, and used to be widely used unintentionally with beneficial effect on the sound. My experiment demonstrated that nicely. NT
Reply by ●November 2, 20172017-11-02
amdx wrote on 11/2/2017 10:09 AM:> On 11/1/2017 8:44 PM, rickman wrote: >> amdx wrote on 11/1/2017 8:42 PM: >>> Well not a exactly a vacuum, they fill it with helium. >>> "...NASA’s Ames Research Center is going back to the future with its new >>> vacuum transistor — a nanometer-scale vacuum tube that, in early testing, >>> has reached speeds of up to 460GHz." >>>> https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/185027-the-vacuum-tube-strikes-back-nasas-tiny-460ghz-vacuum-transistor-that-could-one-day-replace-silicon-fets >>>> >>>> >>> >>> And for the audiophools, > There’s no word on whether these vacuum-channel >>> transistors will allow for the creation of small, modern audio amplifiers >>> that sound like original tube amps — but maybe! >> >> Why would anyone care if they sound like tube amps? We can get all the >> tube amps we want. >> >> I thought they had recreated the sound of tubes digitally, no? >> > That was a bit of a joke. As I understand, in blind tests golden hears > do no better than chance on A/B listening tests. The difference becomes > noticeable only when over driven then the tube amps have a preferred sound > over transistors. > But, my ears rolloff at about 11kHz... > My 20 year old daughter didn't like the 15,750hz coming from an old TV we had.And we can't digitally emulate overdrive distortion of tubes? -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998
Reply by ●November 2, 20172017-11-02
On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 12:53:39 PM UTC-6, rickman wrote:> amdx wrote on 11/2/2017 10:09 AM: > > On 11/1/2017 8:44 PM, rickman wrote: > >> amdx wrote on 11/1/2017 8:42 PM: > >>> Well not a exactly a vacuum, they fill it with helium. > >>> "...NASA’s Ames Research Center is going back to the future with its new > >>> vacuum transistor — a nanometer-scale vacuum tube that, in early testing, > >>> has reached speeds of up to 460GHz." > >>>> https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/185027-the-vacuum-tube-strikes-back-nasas-tiny-460ghz-vacuum-transistor-that-could-one-day-replace-silicon-fets > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> And for the audiophools, > There’s no word on whether these vacuum-channel > >>> transistors will allow for the creation of small, modern audio amplifiers > >>> that sound like original tube amps — but maybe! > >> > >> Why would anyone care if they sound like tube amps? We can get all the > >> tube amps we want. > >> > >> I thought they had recreated the sound of tubes digitally, no? > >> > > That was a bit of a joke. As I understand, in blind tests golden hears > > do no better than chance on A/B listening tests. The difference becomes > > noticeable only when over driven then the tube amps have a preferred sound > > over transistors. > > But, my ears rolloff at about 11kHz... > > My 20 year old daughter didn't like the 15,750hz coming from an old TV we had. > > And we can't digitally emulate overdrive distortion of tubes? > > -- > > Rick C > > Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, > on the centerline of totality since 1998It seems like we should be able to, in theory, however, if there is a solid state guitar amp that does this well I am unaware of it. I am open to suggestions, if anybody has any, as my life would be simpler if I didn't need to maintain and lug around tube amps.
Reply by ●November 2, 20172017-11-02
On 11/01/2017 09:44 PM, rickman wrote:> amdx wrote on 11/1/2017 8:42 PM: >> Well not a exactly a vacuum, they fill it with helium. >> "...NASA’s Ames Research Center is going back to the future with its new >> vacuum transistor — a nanometer-scale vacuum tube that, in early testing, >> has reached speeds of up to 460GHz." >>> https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/185027-the-vacuum-tube-strikes-back-nasas-tiny-460ghz-vacuum-transistor-that-could-one-day-replace-silicon-fets >>> >>> >> >> And for the audiophools, > There’s no word on whether these >> vacuum-channel >> transistors will allow for the creation of small, modern audio amplifiers >> that sound like original tube amps — but maybe! > > Why would anyone care if they sound like tube amps? We can get all the > tube amps we want. > > I thought they had recreated the sound of tubes digitally, no? >I have a Line 6 Pocket POD, it was about $150 street price a couple years ago. I've been playing around 20 years and have used a lot of different amps; whatever "circuit emulation" DSP technology they're using is really well done and it pulls off a very uncanny simulacrum of say a cranked Marshall head through a 4x12" cabinet, that responds to your playing and control adjustments in the way you'd expect a real amp would. But you can listen thru headphones. Put the output in a full mix and I doubt many people could tell the difference. The only downside is it seems extremely power-hungry and will suck a quad of AAA batteries to nothing in about two hours even with the display backlight off, so it's nice they also included an input for an external DC adapter
Reply by ●November 2, 20172017-11-02
DemonicTubes wrote on 11/2/2017 3:29 PM:> On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 12:53:39 PM UTC-6, rickman wrote: >> amdx wrote on 11/2/2017 10:09 AM: >>> On 11/1/2017 8:44 PM, rickman wrote: >>>> amdx wrote on 11/1/2017 8:42 PM: >>>>> Well not a exactly a vacuum, they fill it with helium. >>>>> "...NASA’s Ames Research Center is going back to the future with its new >>>>> vacuum transistor — a nanometer-scale vacuum tube that, in early testing, >>>>> has reached speeds of up to 460GHz." >>>>>> https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/185027-the-vacuum-tube-strikes-back-nasas-tiny-460ghz-vacuum-transistor-that-could-one-day-replace-silicon-fets >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And for the audiophools, > There’s no word on whether these vacuum-channel >>>>> transistors will allow for the creation of small, modern audio amplifiers >>>>> that sound like original tube amps — but maybe! >>>> >>>> Why would anyone care if they sound like tube amps? We can get all the >>>> tube amps we want. >>>> >>>> I thought they had recreated the sound of tubes digitally, no? >>>> >>> That was a bit of a joke. As I understand, in blind tests golden hears >>> do no better than chance on A/B listening tests. The difference becomes >>> noticeable only when over driven then the tube amps have a preferred sound >>> over transistors. >>> But, my ears rolloff at about 11kHz... >>> My 20 year old daughter didn't like the 15,750hz coming from an old TV we had. >> >> And we can't digitally emulate overdrive distortion of tubes? >> >> -- >> >> Rick C >> >> Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, >> on the centerline of totality since 1998 > > It seems like we should be able to, in theory, however, if there is a solid state guitar amp that does this well I am unaware of it. I am open to suggestions, if anybody has any, as my life would be simpler if I didn't need to maintain and lug around tube amps.Define for me the nature of the "tube" sound and I will create a filter to provide that sound. -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998
Reply by ●November 2, 20172017-11-02
On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 1:52:04 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:> On a sunny day (Wed, 1 Nov 2017 19:42:09 -0500) it happened amdx > <nojunk@knology.net> wrote in <otdpl7$d8u$1@dont-email.me>: > > > Well not a exactly a vacuum, they fill it with helium. > >"...NASAâ s Ames Research Center is going back to the future with its new > >vacuum transistor â a nanometer-scale vacuum tube that, in early > >testing, has reached speeds of up to 460GHz." > >> > >> https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/185027-the-vacuum-tube-strikes-back-nasas-tiny-460ghz-vacuum-transistor-that-could-one-day-replace-silicon-fets > > > >And for the audiophools, > Thereâ s no word on whether these > >vacuum-channel transistors will allow for the creation of small, modern > >audio amplifiers that sound like original tube amps â but maybe! > > > > Mikek :-) > > With enough helium and enough transistors maybe NASA will finally rise towards the planets... > Or transistors floating everywhere :-) > > But really it is just a trillions(tm) part of the field emission display: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field-emission_display > > Note the word: Non Linearity. > > NASA should just build HUGE THINGS like nuclear powered spacecraft > that brings us through the galaxy,It wasn't NASA that killed Project Orion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propulsion) Mark L. Fergerson
Reply by ●November 2, 20172017-11-02
On Wed, 1 Nov 2017 19:42:09 -0500, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:> Well not a exactly a vacuum, they fill it with helium. >"...NASA�s Ames Research Center is going back to the future with its new >vacuum transistor � a nanometer-scale vacuum tube that, in early >testing, has reached speeds of up to 460GHz." >> https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/185027-the-vacuum-tube-strikes-back-nasas-tiny-460ghz-vacuum-transistor-that-could-one-day-replace-silicon-fets > >And for the audiophools, > There�s no word on whether these >vacuum-channel transistors will allow for the creation of small, modern >audio amplifiers that sound like original tube amps � but maybe! > > Mikek :-) >For audio it would sound like someone talking after they inhalied some helium. I guess that's called the "Donald Duck" sound..... :)
