LTspice, a great program, but that UI!

"Kevin Aylward" <kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> writes:

>>"John Devereux"  wrote in message news:87pohlf007.fsf@devereux.me.uk...
>
>
>>>The fact that it is available for download, free. And the fact that
>>>other semi makers are offering similar free simulators for their
>>>parts.
>>
>> None of that is *evidence* that providing simulators sells any parts
>> at all, let alone, lots of parts. Its quite likely that it will
>> improve sales a tad, but just how much is guesswork.
>>
>>>And because the LTC people physically told me so last week.
>>
>> That is some evidence, in the legal sense, but without numbers, and
>> reasons for the numbers, it don't mean what they said was accurate or
>> even the truth. As I noted, what would you expect them to
>> say. "LTSpice is a total loss to us".
>>
>> When I was designing board level stuff, I would evaluate pretty every
>> single semiconductor company for the equivalent part I was planning to
>> design in. Its part of the process of being an engineer. You are going
>> to try and get the best compromise of performance, cost and
>> availability. It would be just insane to design in a part just because
>> that was in the kit of your freebe sim tool. Like, you aren't going to
>> check out any alternatives? This is the real world. I don't believe
>> any competent engineer would do such a daft thing.
>
>>It depends entirely on the expected production volumes doesn't it? There
>>are also a lot of unique / niche parts.
>
> Sure, but if it was unique to LT, then they would buy it because its
> unique to LT, LTSpice wouldn't matter .

Yes that is something of a side issue although for most of the "unique"
parts can be implemented with something else but may be more complicated
to design. But for specialist applications where volumes are lower I can
see the attraction of being able to drop in circuit block and have it
"just work", and furthermore be able to immediately demonstrate and
verify that with LTSpice.

Then if volumes of a high profit margin design do take off I can see it
being a while before a tried and trusted, yet relatively expensive part
is designed out.





-- 

John Devereux

"Jasen Betts"  wrote in message news:oa6rqu$ut$1@gonzo.alcatraz...

On 2017-03-13, Kevin Aylward <kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote:
> "John Larkin"  wrote in message
> news:80bdcclpctdk8lageprr2rpsf4rduih7sf@4ax.com...
>

>> None of that is *evidence* that providing simulators sells any parts at 
>> all,
>> let alone, lots of parts. Its quite likely that it will improve sales a 
>> tad,
>> but just how much is guesswork.

>For us it is guesswork, a statistician with the capability to perfom
>experiments and see detailed figures would be able to put a number on it.
>said number would then be a trade secret.

For LTSpice to be of value to LT, it only has to generate a tad more than 
Mike's salary, lets guess that at $500k p.a :-)


-- Kevin Aylward
http://www.anasoft.co.uk - SuperSpice
http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html 

On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 21:47:42 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 23:05:33 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 19:58:33 -0700, John Larkin
>><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 22:46:37 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 19:20:41 -0700, John Larkin
>>>><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 20:15:18 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 19:42:31 -0000, "Kevin Aylward"
>>>>>><kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"John Larkin"  wrote in message 
>>>>>>>news:pi2bcc1mmrc1027fui30jm0p0rr39n4nh8@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 16:46:53 -0000, "Kevin Aylward"
>>>>>>><kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"M Philbrook"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>news:MPG.332f37eeea23385398a015@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>In article <o9veuf$50c$1@dont-email.me>, gnuarm@gmail.com says...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Every time I want to do something with LTspice I have to fight the UI
>>>>>>>>> something wicked.  Doing anything relating to commands is pure torture.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I eventually figured out how to do what I wanted, but it is amazing how
>>>>>>>>>> poor not only the UI is, but the documentation.  I have learned
>>>>>>>>>> programming languages by reading the manuals.  But I can't decipher the
>>>>>>>>>> .MEAS statement in LTspice along with many other features.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Please be advised, LTspice and those like it are real programs designed
>>>>>>>>>for serious users in mind looking for real productivity tools for those
>>>>>>>>>that are PRODUCTIVE.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Pardon?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I suspect that part of the motivation and value of the Analog Devices
>>>>>>>>purchase of LTC was LT Spice; a couple of billion dollars worth maybe.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I have to say, no way josa, and ROTFLMAO. :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>John. Not a chance in a billion that LTSpice has a business worth even 
>>>>>>>remotely near that value. Its a freebe, so it would be simply impossible to 
>>>>>>>justify it as shareholder value as anything more than dubious "goodwill".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>*The* fundamental reason companies buy other companies, is to take their 
>>>>>>>*existing customers*, via the *products* that they *sell*. Its because the 
>>>>>>>other company is eating into their markets or markets they want to enter. 
>>>>>>>Its that simple. It has to be hard profit and loss quantifiable motives, 
>>>>>>>that convince investors and shareholders.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I propose that  LTSpice played no part whatsoever in Analog Devices 
>>>>>>>decision. Lets see if Mike pops up to contradict me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I would suggest that LTSpice gets LT repsonisble for a huge share of
>>>>>>its high margin business.  It's the way they support smaller companies
>>>>>>(where the margins are higher).  There is no other way to justify
>>>>>>their prices.
>>>>>
>>>>>We had a team of LTC folks visit us last Wednesday, partly to tell us
>>>>>about the expected effects of the ADI acquisition. They agreed with me
>>>>>that LT Spice is going to be important to ADI, and that LT Spice has
>>>>>probably sold gigabucks of parts so far.
>>>>>
>>>>>Some of their parts are good deals. Not gumdrop opamps or regulators,
>>>>>but things like fast ADCs and multi-channel serial DACs.
>>>>>
>>>>>We've used thousands of their LTM micro-brick switchers. Nice quiet
>>>>>little things.
>>>>
>>>>Way too expensive.  When we can buy SMPS regulator chips for well less
>>>>than $.50 (and add another $.20 for passives), these sorts of things
>>>>don't hold the interest much.
>>>
>>>"Expensive" depends on the context. They are small, convenient, and as
>>>I noted, very quiet. Two inches away from a 250 MHz, 12 bit ADC, I
>>>don't want a lot of switching spikes in my ground plane.
>>
>>You've just stated my point about LTSpice, and LT in general.  Great
>>stuff, if you're making tens or hundreds a month.  Not so great if
>>you're making thousands or hundreds of thousands.  TI doesn't give
>>much support for people making tens or hundreds but...
>
>If I post a question to one of the TI forums, somebody generally
>answers it pretty promptly, and usually fairly well. I actually have
>some support contacts at TI, but I think the forums work about as well
>in most cases. My question and answer get googl indexed for the rest
>of the world to see.
>
>Distributor FAEs work for small companies too.

But you don't have four people dedicated to your business, one of whom
is an excellent power supply designer.  Do they come into Highland and
teach an eight week power design course?  ...and bring lunch?  ;-)

>>
>>It's a matter of market.  LTSpice allows LT to go after the high
>>margin business, where they want to play.  TI, for instance, has a
>>completely different marketing model.
>>
>
>Sure. We average about 20% overall parts cost compared to selling
>price. Half of that is PC boards and packaging. So I don't worry much
>about parts cost. I do use cheap TI synchronous switchers and external
>Ls and Cs when it's reasonable, and when I have a lot of them on a
>board. 

Yes, that's *many* times our margin.  A buck matters.

>On a production run of, say, 50 or 100 pieces, it's good to minimize
>the number of line items on the BOM. Every part has to be loaded into
>feeders and such.

Sure.  The nuber of feeders is never a concern for our production (it
is for our CM but I never make it under their limit).  The number of
devices matters, of course, because it costs more to place a part than
most parts cost.

>Hey, I use LT Spice for non-LT sims. UniversalOpamp2 is handy.

;-) 

My favorite part is "ideal opamp".

On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 08:33:47 -0000, "Kevin Aylward"
<kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote:

>wrote in message news:4t2ccc969i3l4h4o36f52hsaa1saj63du7@4ax.com...
>
>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 19:58:33 -0700, John Larkin
><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 22:46:37 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 19:20:41 -0700, John Larkin
>>><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 20:15:18 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 19:42:31 -0000, "Kevin Aylward"
>>>>><kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>"John Larkin"  wrote in message
>>>>>>news:pi2bcc1mmrc1027fui30jm0p0rr39n4nh8@4ax.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 16:46:53 -0000, "Kevin Aylward"
>>>>>><kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"M Philbrook"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:MPG.332f37eeea23385398a015@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In article <o9veuf$50c$1@dont-email.me>, gnuarm@gmail.com says...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Every time I want to do something with LTspice I have to fight the 
>>>>>>>> UI
>>>>>>>> something wicked.  Doing anything relating to commands is pure 
>>>>>>>> torture.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I eventually figured out how to do what I wanted, but it is amazing 
>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>> poor not only the UI is, but the documentation.  I have learned
>>>>>>>>> programming languages by reading the manuals.  But I can't decipher 
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> .MEAS statement in LTspice along with many other features.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please be advised, LTspice and those like it are real programs 
>>>>>>>> designed
>>>>>>>>for serious users in mind looking for real productivity tools for 
>>>>>>>>those
>>>>>>>>that are PRODUCTIVE.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Pardon?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I suspect that part of the motivation and value of the Analog Devices
>>>>>>>purchase of LTC was LT Spice; a couple of billion dollars worth maybe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I have to say, no way josa, and ROTFLMAO. :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>John. Not a chance in a billion that LTSpice has a business worth even
>>>>>>remotely near that value. Its a freebe, so it would be simply 
>>>>>>impossible to
>>>>>>justify it as shareholder value as anything more than dubious 
>>>>>>"goodwill".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>*The* fundamental reason companies buy other companies, is to take 
>>>>>>their
>>>>>>*existing customers*, via the *products* that they *sell*. Its because 
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>other company is eating into their markets or markets they want to 
>>>>>>enter.
>>>>>>Its that simple. It has to be hard profit and loss quantifiable 
>>>>>>motives,
>>>>>>that convince investors and shareholders.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I propose that  LTSpice played no part whatsoever in Analog Devices
>>>>>>decision. Lets see if Mike pops up to contradict me.
>>>>>
>>>>>I would suggest that LTSpice gets LT repsonisble for a huge share of
>>>>>its high margin business.  It's the way they support smaller companies
>>>>>(where the margins are higher).  There is no other way to justify
>>>>>their prices.
>>>>
>>>>We had a team of LTC folks visit us last Wednesday, partly to tell us
>>>>about the expected effects of the ADI acquisition. They agreed with me
>>>>that LT Spice is going to be important to ADI, and that LT Spice has
>>>>probably sold gigabucks of parts so far.
>>>>
>>>>Some of their parts are good deals. Not gumdrop opamps or regulators,
>>>>but things like fast ADCs and multi-channel serial DACs.
>>>>
>>>>We've used thousands of their LTM micro-brick switchers. Nice quiet
>>>>little things.
>>>
>>>Way too expensive.  When we can buy SMPS regulator chips for well less
>>>than $.50 (and add another $.20 for passives), these sorts of things
>>>don't hold the interest much.
>>
>>"Expensive" depends on the context. They are small, convenient, and as
>>I noted, very quiet. Two inches away from a 250 MHz, 12 bit ADC, I
>>don't want a lot of switching spikes in my ground plane.
>
>>You've just stated my point about LTSpice, and LT in general.  Great
>>stuff, if you're making tens or hundreds a month.  Not so great if
>>you're making thousands or hundreds of thousands.  TI doesn't give
>>much support for people making tens or hundreds but...
>
>>It's a matter of market.  LTSpice allows LT to go after the high
>>margin business, where they want to play.
>
>This claim makes no sense. LTSpice is *only* a *simulation* program.  A 
>simulation program can't "allow" them to sell parts.

Nonsense.  They sell parts because they've made it easy for customers
to design their parts in.

>LTSpice is, essentially, an advertising tool. It simply puts the name LT on 
>the desktop. Sure, this has value, but purchasing departments don't buy 
>parts based on simulating LT chips on a computer, its, does the part meet 
>the performance required, at a cost I am willing to be, with an acceptable 
>lead time .

It's a lot more than advertising.  I understand that you're jealous of
Mike's rock star status but do try to keep it reasonable.  ;-)
>
>
>
>-- Kevin Aylward
>http://www.anasoft.co.uk - SuperSpice
>http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html 

On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 07:36:20 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 08:33:47 -0000, "Kevin Aylward"
><kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>wrote in message news:4t2ccc969i3l4h4o36f52hsaa1saj63du7@4ax.com...
>>
>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 19:58:33 -0700, John Larkin
>><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 22:46:37 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 19:20:41 -0700, John Larkin
>>>><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 20:15:18 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 19:42:31 -0000, "Kevin Aylward"
>>>>>><kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"John Larkin"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:pi2bcc1mmrc1027fui30jm0p0rr39n4nh8@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 16:46:53 -0000, "Kevin Aylward"
>>>>>>><kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"M Philbrook"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>news:MPG.332f37eeea23385398a015@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>In article <o9veuf$50c$1@dont-email.me>, gnuarm@gmail.com says...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Every time I want to do something with LTspice I have to fight the 
>>>>>>>>> UI
>>>>>>>>> something wicked.  Doing anything relating to commands is pure 
>>>>>>>>> torture.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I eventually figured out how to do what I wanted, but it is amazing 
>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>> poor not only the UI is, but the documentation.  I have learned
>>>>>>>>>> programming languages by reading the manuals.  But I can't decipher 
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> .MEAS statement in LTspice along with many other features.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Please be advised, LTspice and those like it are real programs 
>>>>>>>>> designed
>>>>>>>>>for serious users in mind looking for real productivity tools for 
>>>>>>>>>those
>>>>>>>>>that are PRODUCTIVE.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Pardon?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I suspect that part of the motivation and value of the Analog Devices
>>>>>>>>purchase of LTC was LT Spice; a couple of billion dollars worth maybe.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I have to say, no way josa, and ROTFLMAO. :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>John. Not a chance in a billion that LTSpice has a business worth even
>>>>>>>remotely near that value. Its a freebe, so it would be simply 
>>>>>>>impossible to
>>>>>>>justify it as shareholder value as anything more than dubious 
>>>>>>>"goodwill".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>*The* fundamental reason companies buy other companies, is to take 
>>>>>>>their
>>>>>>>*existing customers*, via the *products* that they *sell*. Its because 
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>other company is eating into their markets or markets they want to 
>>>>>>>enter.
>>>>>>>Its that simple. It has to be hard profit and loss quantifiable 
>>>>>>>motives,
>>>>>>>that convince investors and shareholders.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I propose that  LTSpice played no part whatsoever in Analog Devices
>>>>>>>decision. Lets see if Mike pops up to contradict me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I would suggest that LTSpice gets LT repsonisble for a huge share of
>>>>>>its high margin business.  It's the way they support smaller companies
>>>>>>(where the margins are higher).  There is no other way to justify
>>>>>>their prices.
>>>>>
>>>>>We had a team of LTC folks visit us last Wednesday, partly to tell us
>>>>>about the expected effects of the ADI acquisition. They agreed with me
>>>>>that LT Spice is going to be important to ADI, and that LT Spice has
>>>>>probably sold gigabucks of parts so far.
>>>>>
>>>>>Some of their parts are good deals. Not gumdrop opamps or regulators,
>>>>>but things like fast ADCs and multi-channel serial DACs.
>>>>>
>>>>>We've used thousands of their LTM micro-brick switchers. Nice quiet
>>>>>little things.
>>>>
>>>>Way too expensive.  When we can buy SMPS regulator chips for well less
>>>>than $.50 (and add another $.20 for passives), these sorts of things
>>>>don't hold the interest much.
>>>
>>>"Expensive" depends on the context. They are small, convenient, and as
>>>I noted, very quiet. Two inches away from a 250 MHz, 12 bit ADC, I
>>>don't want a lot of switching spikes in my ground plane.
>>
>>>You've just stated my point about LTSpice, and LT in general.  Great
>>>stuff, if you're making tens or hundreds a month.  Not so great if
>>>you're making thousands or hundreds of thousands.  TI doesn't give
>>>much support for people making tens or hundreds but...
>>
>>>It's a matter of market.  LTSpice allows LT to go after the high
>>>margin business, where they want to play.
>>
>>This claim makes no sense. LTSpice is *only* a *simulation* program.  A 
>>simulation program can't "allow" them to sell parts.
>>
>>LTSpice is, essentially, an advertising tool. It simply puts the name LT on 
>>the desktop. Sure, this has value, but purchasing departments don't buy 
>>parts based on simulating LT chips on a computer, its, does the part meet 
>>the performance required, at a cost I am willing to be, with an acceptable 
>>lead time .
>>
>>
>>
>
>Purchasing departments buy what engineers put on the BOM. If the part
>is sole-source, they have no choice.

Though they try...  (they're trying to tell us that we can't use a
particular capacitor).
>
>In most cases, an engineer can even declare an LM317 to be
>sole-source. Much less an LTC2242.
>
>My purchasing dept is not allowed to overrule an engineering decision
>and buy whatever they want. Heaven help companies where they are.

My PPoE allowed purchasing to buy resistors from "anyone" but
capacitor substitutions, had the be cleared by engineering.  WHere I
am now, no substutions aren't allowed without really expensive
testing.  
>
>I know lots of engineers who pull a part off the LT Spice parts menu,
>sim their circuit, and design in the LTC part.
>
>LTC just sold to ADI for $12 billion, about 10x annual sales. That's
>pretty good.

Thought it was a mere $8B.

On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 20:52:26 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:

>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 21:47:42 -0700, John Larkin
><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 23:05:33 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 19:58:33 -0700, John Larkin
>>><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 22:46:37 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 19:20:41 -0700, John Larkin
>>>>><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 20:15:18 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 19:42:31 -0000, "Kevin Aylward"
>>>>>>><kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"John Larkin"  wrote in message 
>>>>>>>>news:pi2bcc1mmrc1027fui30jm0p0rr39n4nh8@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 16:46:53 -0000, "Kevin Aylward"
>>>>>>>><kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>"M Philbrook"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>news:MPG.332f37eeea23385398a015@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>In article <o9veuf$50c$1@dont-email.me>, gnuarm@gmail.com says...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Every time I want to do something with LTspice I have to fight the UI
>>>>>>>>>> something wicked.  Doing anything relating to commands is pure torture.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I eventually figured out how to do what I wanted, but it is amazing how
>>>>>>>>>>> poor not only the UI is, but the documentation.  I have learned
>>>>>>>>>>> programming languages by reading the manuals.  But I can't decipher the
>>>>>>>>>>> .MEAS statement in LTspice along with many other features.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Please be advised, LTspice and those like it are real programs designed
>>>>>>>>>>for serious users in mind looking for real productivity tools for those
>>>>>>>>>>that are PRODUCTIVE.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Pardon?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I suspect that part of the motivation and value of the Analog Devices
>>>>>>>>>purchase of LTC was LT Spice; a couple of billion dollars worth maybe.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I have to say, no way josa, and ROTFLMAO. :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>John. Not a chance in a billion that LTSpice has a business worth even 
>>>>>>>>remotely near that value. Its a freebe, so it would be simply impossible to 
>>>>>>>>justify it as shareholder value as anything more than dubious "goodwill".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>*The* fundamental reason companies buy other companies, is to take their 
>>>>>>>>*existing customers*, via the *products* that they *sell*. Its because the 
>>>>>>>>other company is eating into their markets or markets they want to enter. 
>>>>>>>>Its that simple. It has to be hard profit and loss quantifiable motives, 
>>>>>>>>that convince investors and shareholders.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I propose that  LTSpice played no part whatsoever in Analog Devices 
>>>>>>>>decision. Lets see if Mike pops up to contradict me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I would suggest that LTSpice gets LT repsonisble for a huge share of
>>>>>>>its high margin business.  It's the way they support smaller companies
>>>>>>>(where the margins are higher).  There is no other way to justify
>>>>>>>their prices.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>We had a team of LTC folks visit us last Wednesday, partly to tell us
>>>>>>about the expected effects of the ADI acquisition. They agreed with me
>>>>>>that LT Spice is going to be important to ADI, and that LT Spice has
>>>>>>probably sold gigabucks of parts so far.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Some of their parts are good deals. Not gumdrop opamps or regulators,
>>>>>>but things like fast ADCs and multi-channel serial DACs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>We've used thousands of their LTM micro-brick switchers. Nice quiet
>>>>>>little things.
>>>>>
>>>>>Way too expensive.  When we can buy SMPS regulator chips for well less
>>>>>than $.50 (and add another $.20 for passives), these sorts of things
>>>>>don't hold the interest much.
>>>>
>>>>"Expensive" depends on the context. They are small, convenient, and as
>>>>I noted, very quiet. Two inches away from a 250 MHz, 12 bit ADC, I
>>>>don't want a lot of switching spikes in my ground plane.
>>>
>>>You've just stated my point about LTSpice, and LT in general.  Great
>>>stuff, if you're making tens or hundreds a month.  Not so great if
>>>you're making thousands or hundreds of thousands.  TI doesn't give
>>>much support for people making tens or hundreds but...
>>
>>If I post a question to one of the TI forums, somebody generally
>>answers it pretty promptly, and usually fairly well. I actually have
>>some support contacts at TI, but I think the forums work about as well
>>in most cases. My question and answer get googl indexed for the rest
>>of the world to see.
>>
>>Distributor FAEs work for small companies too.
>
>But you don't have four people dedicated to your business, one of whom
>is an excellent power supply designer.  Do they come into Highland and
>teach an eight week power design course?  ...and bring lunch?  ;-)

Sometimes they take us out for sushi.

But I don't want a power design course, especially not eight weeks.
Even I can get tired of sushi.



>
>>>
>>>It's a matter of market.  LTSpice allows LT to go after the high
>>>margin business, where they want to play.  TI, for instance, has a
>>>completely different marketing model.
>>>
>>
>>Sure. We average about 20% overall parts cost compared to selling
>>price. Half of that is PC boards and packaging. So I don't worry much
>>about parts cost. I do use cheap TI synchronous switchers and external
>>Ls and Cs when it's reasonable, and when I have a lot of them on a
>>board. 
>
>Yes, that's *many* times our margin.  A buck matters.
>
>>On a production run of, say, 50 or 100 pieces, it's good to minimize
>>the number of line items on the BOM. Every part has to be loaded into
>>feeders and such.
>
>Sure.  The nuber of feeders is never a concern for our production (it
>is for our CM but I never make it under their limit).  The number of
>devices matters, of course, because it costs more to place a part than
>most parts cost.
>
>>Hey, I use LT Spice for non-LT sims. UniversalOpamp2 is handy.
>
>;-) 
>
>My favorite part is "ideal opamp".

I use "e" for that.


-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing   precision measurement 

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 3:26:57 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 17:26:38 -0000, "Kevin Aylward"
> <kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> >"John Larkin"  wrote in message 
> >news:80bdcclpctdk8lageprr2rpsf4rduih7sf@4ax.com...
> >
> >
> >>>>
> >>>>Pardon?
> >>>
> >>>>I suspect that part of the motivation and value of the Analog Devices
> >>>>purchase of LTC was LT Spice; a couple of billion dollars worth maybe.
> >>>
> >>>I have to say, no way josa, and ROTFLMAO. :-)
> >>>
> >>>John. Not a chance in a billion that LTSpice has a business worth even
> >>>remotely near that value. Its a freebe, so it would be simply impossible 
> >>>to
> >>>justify it as shareholder value as anything more than dubious "goodwill".
> >>>
> >>>*The* fundamental reason companies buy other companies, is to take their
> >>>*existing customers*, via the *products* that they *sell*. Its because the
> >>>other company is eating into their markets or markets they want to enter.
> >>>Its that simple. It has to be hard profit and loss quantifiable motives,
> >>>that convince investors and shareholders.
> >>>
> >>>I propose that  LTSpice played no part whatsoever in Analog Devices
> >>>decision. Lets see if Mike pops up to contradict me.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>>LT Spice has sold a lot of LT parts.
> >>
> >>Maybe, maybe not. How do know? What physical evidence is there of that?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >>The fact that it is available for download, free. And the fact that
> >>other semi makers are offering similar free simulators for their
> >>parts.
> >
> >None of that is *evidence* that providing simulators sells any parts at all, 
> >let alone, lots of parts. Its quite likely that it will improve sales a tad, 
> >but just how much is guesswork.
> >
> >>And because the LTC people physically told me so last week.
> >
> >That is some evidence, in the legal sense, but without numbers, and reasons 
> >for the numbers, it don't mean what they said was accurate or even the 
> >truth. As I noted, what would you expect them to say. "LTSpice is a total 
> >loss to us".
> >
> >When I was designing board level stuff, I would evaluate pretty every single 
> >semiconductor company for the equivalent part I was planning to design in. 
> >Its part of the process of being an engineer. You are going to try and get 
> >the best compromise of performance, cost and availability. It would be just 
> >insane to design in a part just because that was in the kit of your freebe 
> >sim tool. Like, you aren't going to check out any alternatives? This is the 
> >real world. I don't believe any competent engineer would do such a daft 
> >thing.
> 
> Engineering is expensive. Risk can be expensive. Performance can be
> valuable. Getting a product to market matters. There's more to
> engineering than minimizing the BOM cost.
I'm small time, the price difference for LT parts hardly matters.
    
(Given the cost of box, switches, knobs, connectors, time etc.)
It's nice that someone caters to the smaller customer, I hope some 
of that stays with the AD buy.  

George H.   
> 
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/TEM2_Power_Board.JPG
> 
> 
> >
> >So, no, I don't believe that LTSpice makes much of a difference in sales.
> 
> There wouldn't be a tad of jealousy there, huh?
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc
> picosecond timing   precision measurement 
> 
> jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
> http://www.highlandtechnology.com

On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 9:15:43 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 20:52:26 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> 
> >On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 21:47:42 -0700, John Larkin
> ><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 23:05:33 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 19:58:33 -0700, John Larkin
> >>><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 22:46:37 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 19:20:41 -0700, John Larkin
> >>>>><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 20:15:18 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 19:42:31 -0000, "Kevin Aylward"
> >>>>>>><kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>"John Larkin"  wrote in message 
> >>>>>>>>news:pi2bcc1mmrc1027fui30jm0p0rr39n4nh8@4ax.com...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 16:46:53 -0000, "Kevin Aylward"
> >>>>>>>><kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>"M Philbrook"  wrote in message
> >>>>>>>>>news:MPG.332f37eeea23385398a015@news.eternal-september.org...
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>In article <o9veuf$50c$1@dont-email.me>, gnuarm@gmail.com says...
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Every time I want to do something with LTspice I have to fight the UI
> >>>>>>>>>> something wicked.  Doing anything relating to commands is pure torture.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I eventually figured out how to do what I wanted, but it is amazing how
> >>>>>>>>>>> poor not only the UI is, but the documentation.  I have learned
> >>>>>>>>>>> programming languages by reading the manuals.  But I can't decipher the
> >>>>>>>>>>> .MEAS statement in LTspice along with many other features.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Please be advised, LTspice and those like it are real programs designed
> >>>>>>>>>>for serious users in mind looking for real productivity tools for those
> >>>>>>>>>>that are PRODUCTIVE.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>Pardon?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>I suspect that part of the motivation and value of the Analog Devices
> >>>>>>>>>purchase of LTC was LT Spice; a couple of billion dollars worth maybe.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>I have to say, no way josa, and ROTFLMAO. :-)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>John. Not a chance in a billion that LTSpice has a business worth even 
> >>>>>>>>remotely near that value. Its a freebe, so it would be simply impossible to 
> >>>>>>>>justify it as shareholder value as anything more than dubious "goodwill".
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>*The* fundamental reason companies buy other companies, is to take their 
> >>>>>>>>*existing customers*, via the *products* that they *sell*. Its because the 
> >>>>>>>>other company is eating into their markets or markets they want to enter. 
> >>>>>>>>Its that simple. It has to be hard profit and loss quantifiable motives, 
> >>>>>>>>that convince investors and shareholders.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>I propose that  LTSpice played no part whatsoever in Analog Devices 
> >>>>>>>>decision. Lets see if Mike pops up to contradict me.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I would suggest that LTSpice gets LT repsonisble for a huge share of
> >>>>>>>its high margin business.  It's the way they support smaller companies
> >>>>>>>(where the margins are higher).  There is no other way to justify
> >>>>>>>their prices.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>We had a team of LTC folks visit us last Wednesday, partly to tell us
> >>>>>>about the expected effects of the ADI acquisition. They agreed with me
> >>>>>>that LT Spice is going to be important to ADI, and that LT Spice has
> >>>>>>probably sold gigabucks of parts so far.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Some of their parts are good deals. Not gumdrop opamps or regulators,
> >>>>>>but things like fast ADCs and multi-channel serial DACs.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>We've used thousands of their LTM micro-brick switchers. Nice quiet
> >>>>>>little things.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Way too expensive.  When we can buy SMPS regulator chips for well less
> >>>>>than $.50 (and add another $.20 for passives), these sorts of things
> >>>>>don't hold the interest much.
> >>>>
> >>>>"Expensive" depends on the context. They are small, convenient, and as
> >>>>I noted, very quiet. Two inches away from a 250 MHz, 12 bit ADC, I
> >>>>don't want a lot of switching spikes in my ground plane.
> >>>
> >>>You've just stated my point about LTSpice, and LT in general.  Great
> >>>stuff, if you're making tens or hundreds a month.  Not so great if
> >>>you're making thousands or hundreds of thousands.  TI doesn't give
> >>>much support for people making tens or hundreds but...
> >>
> >>If I post a question to one of the TI forums, somebody generally
> >>answers it pretty promptly, and usually fairly well. I actually have
> >>some support contacts at TI, but I think the forums work about as well
> >>in most cases. My question and answer get googl indexed for the rest
> >>of the world to see.
> >>
> >>Distributor FAEs work for small companies too.
> >
> >But you don't have four people dedicated to your business, one of whom
> >is an excellent power supply designer.  Do they come into Highland and
> >teach an eight week power design course?  ...and bring lunch?  ;-)
> 
> Sometimes they take us out for sushi.
> 
> But I don't want a power design course, especially not eight weeks.
> Even I can get tired of sushi.
> 
> 
> 
> >
> >>>
> >>>It's a matter of market.  LTSpice allows LT to go after the high
> >>>margin business, where they want to play.  TI, for instance, has a
> >>>completely different marketing model.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Sure. We average about 20% overall parts cost compared to selling
> >>price. Half of that is PC boards and packaging. So I don't worry much
> >>about parts cost. I do use cheap TI synchronous switchers and external
> >>Ls and Cs when it's reasonable, and when I have a lot of them on a
> >>board. 
> >
> >Yes, that's *many* times our margin.  A buck matters.
> >
> >>On a production run of, say, 50 or 100 pieces, it's good to minimize
> >>the number of line items on the BOM. Every part has to be loaded into
> >>feeders and such.
> >
> >Sure.  The nuber of feeders is never a concern for our production (it
> >is for our CM but I never make it under their limit).  The number of
> >devices matters, of course, because it costs more to place a part than
> >most parts cost.
> >
> >>Hey, I use LT Spice for non-LT sims. UniversalOpamp2 is handy.
> >
> >;-) 
> >
> >My favorite part is "ideal opamp".
> 
> I use "e" for that.
Yeah when is LT going to release "e" and how much is it? :^)
GH
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc
> picosecond timing   precision measurement 
> 
> jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
> http://www.highlandtechnology.com

On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 20:44:27 -0000, "Kevin Aylward"
<kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote:

>>"John Larkin"  wrote in message 
>>news:66sdccpjrn4sgm0dohodvrhlosuuru05hp@4ax.com...
>
>>
>>>And because the LTC people physically told me so last week.
>>
>>>That is some evidence, in the legal sense, but without numbers, and 
>>>reasons
>>>for the numbers, it don't mean what they said was accurate or even the
>>>truth. As I noted, what would you expect them to say. "LTSpice is a total
>>>loss to us".
>>
>>>When I was designing board level stuff, I would evaluate pretty every 
>>>single
>>>semiconductor company for the equivalent part I was planning to design in.
>>>Its part of the process of being an engineer. You are going to try and get
>>>the best compromise of performance, cost and availability. It would be 
>>>just
>>>insane to design in a part just because that was in the kit of your freebe
>>>sim tool. Like, you aren't going to check out any alternatives? This is 
>>>the
>>>real world. I don't believe any competent engineer would do such a daft
>>thing.
>
>>Engineering is expensive. Risk can be expensive. Performance can be
>>valuable. Getting a product to market matters. There's more to
>>engineering than minimizing the BOM cost.
>
>Sure, but one needs to step back a bit here, and examine reality.
>
>Are you really claiming that  a competent  engineer is not even going to 
>spend 30 mins on the web. Like *30 min* out of months of development costs, 
>simply to check out if another suitable part might even exist?

I don't recall saying that.

>
>
>>So, no, I don't believe that LTSpice makes much of a difference in sales.
>
>>There wouldn't be a tad of jealousy there, huh?
>
>No. I have given a lot of thought to what is the value of freebee stuff like 
>this, and it is not a lot, imo. The reality is, and taking into account your 
>valid comment in principle of minimising development time,  its simple not a 
>rational way to develop products to not do even the most minimal check of 
>alternative parts. Its even usually a requirement to design, whenever 
>possible, a product where you can second source parts.

Resistors and caps and some ICs are multi-sourced, but not much of the
good stuff is any more. 

>
>So, no I don't believe that a competent engineer, using LTSice, will refuse 
>to even go on the web for *5 minutes* to check if something else is 
>available. Its utter nonsense to suggest that this wouldn't happen. So, 
>LTSpice cannot possibly be a genuine *cause* to buy an LT part. The LT part 
>will be compared to another part, and the then optimum chosen, and it wont 
>matter whether LTSpice is there or not.

But if I get a good sim of an LTC part and it's not expensive, I just
use it. Their stuff works and doesn't get randomly EOLd like Maxim.

Here's a 2-channel 1200 volt pulse generator.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/T840_E1.jpg

(Nice layout, no? I did that one myself.)

I needed a 1400 volt supply, so I pulled up the LTC3803 sim, ran it,
and it looked great so I specified the part and moved on to the hard
parts. It worked just as predicted. (U17, tiny 6-pin bugger, cost
$1.32.)

Was I a Bad Engineer?



-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics 

On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 21:50:38 -0000, "Kevin Aylward"
<kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote:

>"Jasen Betts"  wrote in message news:oa6rqu$ut$1@gonzo.alcatraz...
>
>On 2017-03-13, Kevin Aylward <kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote:
>> "John Larkin"  wrote in message
>> news:80bdcclpctdk8lageprr2rpsf4rduih7sf@4ax.com...
>>
>
>>> None of that is *evidence* that providing simulators sells any parts at 
>>> all,
>>> let alone, lots of parts. Its quite likely that it will improve sales a 
>>> tad,
>>> but just how much is guesswork.
>
>>For us it is guesswork, a statistician with the capability to perfom
>>experiments and see detailed figures would be able to put a number on it.
>>said number would then be a trade secret.
>
>For LTSpice to be of value to LT, it only has to generate a tad more than 
>Mike's salary, lets guess that at $500k p.a :-)
>
>
>-- Kevin Aylward
>http://www.anasoft.co.uk - SuperSpice
>http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html 

I expect that he has some stock options.


-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics