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Auto immobilizer

Started by Unknown August 22, 2016
Where do they connect auto immobilizer?  Ignition wire is simply, but too simple and obviously easy to by-pass.  For my old Ford, i disable it with the crankshaft sensor, since it would not start without it.  

I am using Intel Edison or Raspberry Pi to control an relay.  Both can do the job.  Edison is better because of the small size and embedded flash; However, it is also worse because of the embedded flash.  I had to reload the OS many times when it just disappear, due to the way they reload the OS on-board.    Fortunately, this would not be a problem with it power up all the time anyway.  RPI uses a separate uSD, loaded from PC.

Den mandag den 22. august 2016 kl. 20.44.09 UTC+2 skrev edward....@gmail.com:
> Where do they connect auto immobilizer? Ignition wire is simply, but too simple and obviously easy to by-pass. For my old Ford, i disable it with the crankshaft sensor, since it would not start without it. > > I am using Intel Edison or Raspberry Pi to control an relay. Both can do the job. Edison is better because of the small size and embedded flash; However, it is also worse because of the embedded flash. I had to reload the OS many times when it just disappear, due to the way they reload the OS on-board. Fortunately, this would not be a problem with it power up all the time anyway. RPI uses a separate uSD, loaded from PC.
why on earth would you use something like an edison or RPI to control a relay? -Lasse
On Monday, August 22, 2016 at 11:52:47 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> Den mandag den 22. august 2016 kl. 20.44.09 UTC+2 skrev edward....@gmail.com: > > Where do they connect auto immobilizer? Ignition wire is simply, but too simple and obviously easy to by-pass. For my old Ford, i disable it with the crankshaft sensor, since it would not start without it. > > > > I am using Intel Edison or Raspberry Pi to control an relay. Both can do the job. Edison is better because of the small size and embedded flash; However, it is also worse because of the embedded flash. I had to reload the OS many times when it just disappear, due to the way they reload the OS on-board. Fortunately, this would not be a problem with it power up all the time anyway. RPI uses a separate uSD, loaded from PC. > > why on earth would you use something like an edison or RPI to control a relay?
With a USB mobile modem, Internet connected. There are other things as well.
On 8/22/2016 11:44 AM, edward.ming.lee@gmail.com wrote:
> Where do they connect auto immobilizer? Ignition wire is simply, but too > simple and obviously easy to by-pass. For my old Ford, i disable it with > the crankshaft sensor, since it would not start without it.
Modern vehicles disable the "engine" by preventing the engine control app from *running* the engine (i.e., no "wires" have been cut; the control signals are just inhibited -- no injector controls, etc.). You'd have to mimic the functionality of the entire ECU to work-around it. For a legacy vehicle, you can cut power to the ignition (e.g., coil primary) and the fuel pump (if car has an electric fuel pump). Interrupting the battery to the starter is expensive and too easily worked-around. When I was in school, I designed a CDI for my 70's vintage vehicle. My approach to the "immobilizer" function was to inject "noise" into the firing circuit (i.e., bogus events from the "points") at an ever increasing frequency. In effect, cause the car to misfire hoping it would stall some time after the thieves had left the safety/isolation of wherever I'd parked it and now found themselves with a disabled vehicle in the middle of a roadway. It worked well enough -- but the car was never stolen so no idea how practical it would have been. There are probably similar actuators under the hood that could be interfered with the dramatically decrease performance without confusing the ECU, terribly.
> I am using Intel Edison or Raspberry Pi to control an relay. Both can do > the job. Edison is better because of the small size and embedded flash; > However, it is also worse because of the embedded flash. I had to reload > the OS many times when it just disappear, due to the way they reload the OS > on-board. Fortunately, this would not be a problem with it power up all > the time anyway. RPI uses a separate uSD, loaded from PC.
On Monday, August 22, 2016 at 12:02:59 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> On 8/22/2016 11:44 AM, edward.ming.lee@gmail.com wrote: > > Where do they connect auto immobilizer? Ignition wire is simply, but too > > simple and obviously easy to by-pass. For my old Ford, i disable it with > > the crankshaft sensor, since it would not start without it. > > Modern vehicles disable the "engine" by preventing the engine control > app from *running* the engine (i.e., no "wires" have been cut; the control > signals are just inhibited -- no injector controls, etc.). You'd have to mimic > the functionality of the entire ECU to work-around it.
So, is the RFID controller inside or close to the ECU?
> There are probably similar actuators under the hood that could be > interfered with the dramatically decrease performance without > confusing the ECU, terribly.
Yes, i found by accident that my Ford won't start without the crankcase sensor, just thin signal wires.
> > I am using Intel Edison or Raspberry Pi to control an relay. Both can do > > the job. Edison is better because of the small size and embedded flash; > > However, it is also worse because of the embedded flash. I had to reload > > the OS many times when it just disappear, due to the way they reload the OS > > on-board. Fortunately, this would not be a problem with it power up all > > the time anyway. RPI uses a separate uSD, loaded from PC.
On Mon, 22 Aug 2016 11:52:39 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

>Den mandag den 22. august 2016 kl. 20.44.09 UTC+2 skrev edward....@gmail.com: >> Where do they connect auto immobilizer? Ignition wire is simply, but too simple and obviously easy to by-pass. For my old Ford, i disable it with the crankshaft sensor, since it would not start without it. >> >> I am using Intel Edison or Raspberry Pi to control an relay. Both can do the job. Edison is better because of the small size and embedded flash; However, it is also worse because of the embedded flash. I had to reload the OS many times when it just disappear, due to the way they reload the OS on-board. Fortunately, this would not be a problem with it power up all the time anyway. RPI uses a separate uSD, loaded from PC. > >why on earth would you use something like an edison or RPI to control a relay? > > >-Lasse
Some people can only "design" using a uC/uP ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I'm looking for work... see my website.
On Monday, August 22, 2016 at 12:24:53 PM UTC-7, Jim Thompson wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Aug 2016 11:52:39 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen > <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote: > > >Den mandag den 22. august 2016 kl. 20.44.09 UTC+2 skrev edward....@gmail.com: > >> Where do they connect auto immobilizer? Ignition wire is simply, but too simple and obviously easy to by-pass. For my old Ford, i disable it with the crankshaft sensor, since it would not start without it. > >> > >> I am using Intel Edison or Raspberry Pi to control an relay. Both can do the job. Edison is better because of the small size and embedded flash; However, it is also worse because of the embedded flash. I had to reload the OS many times when it just disappear, due to the way they reload the OS on-board. Fortunately, this would not be a problem with it power up all the time anyway. RPI uses a separate uSD, loaded from PC. > > > >why on earth would you use something like an edison or RPI to control a relay? > > > > > >-Lasse > > Some people can only "design" using a uC/uP ;-) > > ...Jim Thompson
And some can't. We use uC when the application needs it. Can you design a web server with discret electronics?
On 8/22/2016 11:52 AM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> Den mandag den 22. august 2016 kl. 20.44.09 UTC+2 skrev > edward....@gmail.com: >> Where do they connect auto immobilizer? Ignition wire is simply, but too >> simple and obviously easy to by-pass. For my old Ford, i disable it with >> the crankshaft sensor, since it would not start without it. >> >> I am using Intel Edison or Raspberry Pi to control an relay. Both can do >> the job. Edison is better because of the small size and embedded flash; >> However, it is also worse because of the embedded flash. I had to reload >> the OS many times when it just disappear, due to the way they reload the >> OS on-board. Fortunately, this would not be a problem with it power up >> all the time anyway. RPI uses a separate uSD, loaded from PC. > > why on earth would you use something like an edison or RPI to control a > relay?
I guess it depends on what the "user interface" would happen to be. Kinda hard to design a "voice-print controlled relay" with anything less! :> (why use a relay if you could use a TOGGLE SWITCH?]
edward.ming.lee@gmail.com <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, August 22, 2016 at 12:02:59 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: >> On 8/22/2016 11:44 AM, edward.ming.lee@gmail.com wrote: >> > Where do they connect auto immobilizer? Ignition wire is simply, but too >> > simple and obviously easy to by-pass. For my old Ford, i disable it with >> > the crankshaft sensor, since it would not start without it. >> >> Modern vehicles disable the "engine" by preventing the engine control >> app from *running* the engine (i.e., no "wires" have been cut; the control >> signals are just inhibited -- no injector controls, etc.). You'd have to mimic >> the functionality of the entire ECU to work-around it. > > So, is the RFID controller inside or close to the ECU?
Probably yes. I have a car which has this feature as standard and I think there is just an RFID readout that is connected to the ECU. The ECU has to be programmed with the keys it has to recognize, and when the readout does not read one of those numbers it will simply not run the engine. It is still possible to run the starter motor. A message appears on the LCD telling about it. Each key has a passive RFID chip embedded. This is separate from the active (battery-powered) transmitter used to open and close the doors.
On 8/22/2016 12:14 PM, edward.ming.lee@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, August 22, 2016 at 12:02:59 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: >> On 8/22/2016 11:44 AM, edward.ming.lee@gmail.com wrote: >>> Where do they connect auto immobilizer? Ignition wire is simply, but >>> too simple and obviously easy to by-pass. For my old Ford, i disable it >>> with the crankshaft sensor, since it would not start without it. >> >> Modern vehicles disable the "engine" by preventing the engine control app >> from *running* the engine (i.e., no "wires" have been cut; the control >> signals are just inhibited -- no injector controls, etc.). You'd have to >> mimic the functionality of the entire ECU to work-around it. > > So, is the RFID controller inside or close to the ECU?
Nowadays, everything is a "virtual" circuit; messages move around instead of "wires" carrying specific signals. E.g., on SWMBO's vehicle, there are antennae in the two doors plus the rear liftgate (to sense the fob's proximity when attempting to open/lock any of those accesses) -- plus something inside the vehicle to sense if the driver has the fob nearby to start the vehicle. Note that the fob is not required to *operate* the vehicle, just to start/unlock/lock it. E.g., if the vehicle is running and you exit the vehicle, it will "complain" but the ignition will remain intact. (OTOH, if someone then stops the vehicle, it would not restart)
>> There are probably similar actuators under the hood that could be >> interfered with the dramatically decrease performance without confusing >> the ECU, terribly. > > Yes, i found by accident that my Ford won't start without the crankcase > sensor, just thin signal wires.
Cut power to the fuel pump and the injectors won't work. It's conceivable (though not likely) that the vehicle would complain if it couldn't sense it's ground speed -- knowing that it was in gear with the brake off. Emission controls might be usable to compromise performance. Etc. Cars are more integrated systems than they'd been in the past (despite the fact that the controls are distributed)