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PIC oscillator Q

Started by Robert Baer September 10, 2015
   It seems that an un-programmed PIC will not oscillate; the OSC pins 
are at ground in the "raw" state, and 10Megs between them obviously will 
not get them to logic (linear) level.

   So, ASS-u-ME that the PIC is minimally programmed for an external 
20Mhz crystal and one would like it to oscillate at that frequency and 
not higher, what changes would be needed, based on my old Semi-universal 
oscillator:

   Copied from "Semi-universal CMOS Xtal OSC"  11/11/2008 4:55 AM

   Plug crystal into appropiate socket; each has its specified load.
   The drive resistor shown is the maximum value that allows all
frequencies of a given type to oscillate; some frequencies work
with higher R values (less drive).
   NOTE: in *all* cases the frequency is higher than marked (
expected) value.
   Made using a 74AC02 which oscillates near 140Mhz with no Xtal
plugged in (amplitude about 1V pk-pk at 5V supply).

                                            Xlo (Khz)
                10M                   Marking |  Measured
          +-----/\/\----+             --------+-----------
          |             |                 32  |   32.7711
          |     |\      |                     |   32.7710
          +-----| >o----+---+                 |   32.7721
          |     |/      |   |         --------+-----------
          |             \   |            100  |  100.0033
          |        680K /   |                 |  100.0042
          |             \   |         --------+-----------
          |      Xlo    |   |            200  |  200.0951
          +-----o  o----+   \         --------+-----------
          |             |   / 6.8K      1000  | 1000.386
         ---       10p ---  \
         --- 22p       ---  |                 Xhi (Mhz)
          |             |   |         Marking   |  Measured
          |             V   |         ----------+-----------
          |      Xhi        |          2.000    | 2.000188
          +-----o  o----+---+                   | 2.000179
          |             |             ----------+-----------
         ---           ---             3.579545 | 3.580152
         --- 18p       --- 18p        ----------+-----------
          |             |              10.000   | 10.003115
          V GND         V             ----------+-----------
                                       12.000   | 12.007229


On 10/09/2015 09:13, Robert Baer wrote:
> It seems that an un-programmed PIC will not oscillate; the OSC pins > are at ground in the "raw" state, and 10Megs between them obviously will > not get them to logic (linear) level. > > So, ASS-u-ME that the PIC is minimally programmed for an external > 20Mhz crystal and one would like it to oscillate at that frequency and > not higher, what changes would be needed, based on my old Semi-universal > oscillator:
RTFM. eg section 6 in 16F84. I suspect default is basic RC operation but have never investigated that since I wanted a precision clock rate. In HS mode it will happily drive a suitable 20MHz Xtal. -- Regards, Martin Brown
Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com> wrote:

> It seems that an un-programmed PIC will not oscillate; the OSC pins > are at ground in the "raw" state, and 10Megs between them obviously > will not get them to logic (linear) level.
Many 8 bit PICs default to RC oscillator mode if unprogrammed. Try a 22pF cap to ground and a 5.6K pullup on OSC1. OSC2 generally outputs a Fosc/4 signal in RC mode.
> > So, ASS-u-ME that the PIC is minimally programmed for an external > 20Mhz crystal and one would like it to oscillate at that frequency and > not higher, what changes would be needed, based on my old > Semi-universal oscillator: > > Copied from "Semi-universal CMOS Xtal OSC" 11/11/2008 4:55 AM > > Plug crystal into appropiate socket; each has its specified load. > The drive resistor shown is the maximum value that allows all > frequencies of a given type to oscillate; some frequencies work > with higher R values (less drive). > NOTE: in *all* cases the frequency is higher than marked ( > expected) value. > Made using a 74AC02 which oscillates near 140Mhz with no Xtal > plugged in (amplitude about 1V pk-pk at 5V supply). > > Xlo (Khz) > 10M Marking | Measured > +-----/\/\----+ --------+----------- > | | 32 | 32.7711 > | |\ | | 32.7710 > +-----| >o----+---+ | 32.7721 > | |/ | | --------+----------- > | \ | 100 | 100.0033 > | 680K / | | 100.0042 > | \ | --------+----------- > | Xlo | | 200 | 200.0951 > +-----o o----+ \ --------+----------- > | | / 6.8K 1000 | 1000.386 > --- 10p --- \ > --- 22p --- | Xhi (Mhz) > | | | Marking | Measured > | V | ----------+----------- > | Xhi | 2.000 | 2.000188 > +-----o o----+---+ | 2.000179 > | | ----------+----------- > --- --- 3.579545 | 3.580152 > --- 18p --- 18p ----------+----------- > | | 10.000 | 10.003115 > V GND V ----------+----------- > 12.000 | 12.007229 > > >
Simply configure the PIC for HS mode and connect a 20MHz crystal across OSC1/OSC2 with load caps to ground of sligtly less than double the parallel load capacitance specified in the crystal's datasheet. External series and shunt resistors are only required in exceptional circumstances. See Microchip Application Notes AN826, AN849 & AN949. -- Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED) ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk [at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & >32K emails --> NUL
On 10/09/2015 09:13, Robert Baer wrote:
> It seems that an un-programmed PIC will not oscillate; the OSC pins > are at ground in the "raw" state, and 10Megs between them obviously will > not get them to logic (linear) level.
If this is the Schumann calibrator project then the PIC device I think you are referring to is the 16F648 which has an oscillator block capable of several configurations. An unprogrammed config word will be all 1's and will select RC oscillator with fosc/4 output - see datasheet DS40044F page 96 (which your pdf reader may show as page 98). piglet
On 9/10/2015 3:13 AM, Robert Baer wrote:
> It seems that an un-programmed PIC will not oscillate; the OSC pins > are at ground in the "raw" state, and 10Megs between them obviously will > not get them to logic (linear) level. > > So, ASS-u-ME that the PIC is minimally programmed for an external > 20Mhz crystal and one would like it to oscillate at that frequency and > not higher, what changes would be needed, based on my old Semi-universal > oscillator: > > Copied from "Semi-universal CMOS Xtal OSC" 11/11/2008 4:55 AM > > Plug crystal into appropiate socket; each has its specified load. > The drive resistor shown is the maximum value that allows all > frequencies of a given type to oscillate; some frequencies work > with higher R values (less drive). > NOTE: in *all* cases the frequency is higher than marked ( > expected) value. > Made using a 74AC02 which oscillates near 140Mhz with no Xtal > plugged in (amplitude about 1V pk-pk at 5V supply). > > Xlo (Khz) > 10M Marking | Measured > +-----/\/\----+ --------+----------- > | | 32 | 32.7711 > | |\ | | 32.7710 > +-----| >o----+---+ | 32.7721 > | |/ | | --------+----------- > | \ | 100 | 100.0033 > | 680K / | | 100.0042 > | \ | --------+----------- > | Xlo | | 200 | 200.0951 > +-----o o----+ \ --------+----------- > | | / 6.8K 1000 | 1000.386 > --- 10p --- \ > --- 22p --- | Xhi (Mhz) > | | | Marking | Measured > | V | ----------+----------- > | Xhi | 2.000 | 2.000188 > +-----o o----+---+ | 2.000179 > | | ----------+----------- > --- --- 3.579545 | 3.580152 > --- 18p --- 18p ----------+----------- > | | 10.000 | 10.003115 > V GND V ----------+----------- > 12.000 | 12.007229 >
If I understand you correctly, you want to know how to modify your circuit so that it produces a frequency no higher than the crystal's marking. Yes?
Martin Brown wrote:
> On 10/09/2015 09:13, Robert Baer wrote: >> It seems that an un-programmed PIC will not oscillate; the OSC pins >> are at ground in the "raw" state, and 10Megs between them obviously will >> not get them to logic (linear) level. >> >> So, ASS-u-ME that the PIC is minimally programmed for an external >> 20Mhz crystal and one would like it to oscillate at that frequency and >> not higher, what changes would be needed, based on my old Semi-universal >> oscillator: > > RTFM. eg section 6 in 16F84. I suspect default is basic RC operation but > have never investigated that since I wanted a precision clock rate. > In HS mode it will happily drive a suitable 20MHz Xtal. >
Yes, yes,yes,,,,,the CIRCUIT values please...
To select a given frequency or harmonic, one can put an LC tank in parallel 
with the crystal, so that non-resonant modes are shorted out.  The LC tank 
itself can also be used, if accuracy inbetween RC and xtal is tolerable.

Dimension the LC for comparable impedance to the crystal, i.e., sqrt(L/C) ~= 
1kohm.

Tim

-- 
Seven Transistor Labs
Electrical Engineering Consultation
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com

"Robert Baer" <robertbaer@localnet.com> wrote in message 
news:zYaIx.3724$bU1.120@fx15.iad...
> It seems that an un-programmed PIC will not oscillate; the OSC pins are > at ground in the "raw" state, and 10Megs between them obviously will not > get them to logic (linear) level. > > So, ASS-u-ME that the PIC is minimally programmed for an external 20Mhz > crystal and one would like it to oscillate at that frequency and not > higher, what changes would be needed, based on my old Semi-universal > oscillator: > > Copied from "Semi-universal CMOS Xtal OSC" 11/11/2008 4:55 AM > > Plug crystal into appropiate socket; each has its specified load. > The drive resistor shown is the maximum value that allows all > frequencies of a given type to oscillate; some frequencies work > with higher R values (less drive). > NOTE: in *all* cases the frequency is higher than marked ( > expected) value. > Made using a 74AC02 which oscillates near 140Mhz with no Xtal > plugged in (amplitude about 1V pk-pk at 5V supply). > > Xlo (Khz) > 10M Marking | Measured > +-----/\/\----+ --------+----------- > | | 32 | 32.7711 > | |\ | | 32.7710 > +-----| >o----+---+ | 32.7721 > | |/ | | --------+----------- > | \ | 100 | 100.0033 > | 680K / | | 100.0042 > | \ | --------+----------- > | Xlo | | 200 | 200.0951 > +-----o o----+ \ --------+----------- > | | / 6.8K 1000 | 1000.386 > --- 10p --- \ > --- 22p --- | Xhi (Mhz) > | | | Marking | Measured > | V | ----------+----------- > | Xhi | 2.000 | 2.000188 > +-----o o----+---+ | 2.000179 > | | ----------+----------- > --- --- 3.579545 | 3.580152 > --- 18p --- 18p ----------+----------- > | | 10.000 | 10.003115 > V GND V ----------+----------- > 12.000 | 12.007229 > >
Ian Malcolm wrote:
> Robert Baer<robertbaer@localnet.com> wrote: > >> It seems that an un-programmed PIC will not oscillate; the OSC pins >> are at ground in the "raw" state, and 10Megs between them obviously >> will not get them to logic (linear) level. > Many 8 bit PICs default to RC oscillator mode if unprogrammed. Try a > 22pF cap to ground and a 5.6K pullup on OSC1. OSC2 generally outputs a > Fosc/4 signal in RC mode. > >> >> So, ASS-u-ME that the PIC is minimally programmed for an external >> 20Mhz crystal and one would like it to oscillate at that frequency and >> not higher, what changes would be needed, based on my old >> Semi-universal oscillator: >> >> Copied from "Semi-universal CMOS Xtal OSC" 11/11/2008 4:55 AM >> >> Plug crystal into appropiate socket; each has its specified load. >> The drive resistor shown is the maximum value that allows all >> frequencies of a given type to oscillate; some frequencies work >> with higher R values (less drive). >> NOTE: in *all* cases the frequency is higher than marked ( >> expected) value. >> Made using a 74AC02 which oscillates near 140Mhz with no Xtal >> plugged in (amplitude about 1V pk-pk at 5V supply). >> >> Xlo (Khz) >> 10M Marking | Measured >> +-----/\/\----+ --------+----------- >> | | 32 | 32.7711 >> | |\ | | 32.7710 >> +-----|>o----+---+ | 32.7721 >> | |/ | | --------+----------- >> | \ | 100 | 100.0033 >> | 680K / | | 100.0042 >> | \ | --------+----------- >> | Xlo | | 200 | 200.0951 >> +-----o o----+ \ --------+----------- >> | | / 6.8K 1000 | 1000.386 >> --- 10p --- \ >> --- 22p --- | Xhi (Mhz) >> | | | Marking | Measured >> | V | ----------+----------- >> | Xhi | 2.000 | 2.000188 >> +-----o o----+---+ | 2.000179 >> | | ----------+----------- >> --- --- 3.579545 | 3.580152 >> --- 18p --- 18p ----------+----------- >> | | 10.000 | 10.003115 >> V GND V ----------+----------- >> 12.000 | 12.007229 >> >> >> > > Simply configure the PIC for HS mode and connect a 20MHz crystal across > OSC1/OSC2 with load caps to ground of sligtly less than double the > parallel load capacitance specified in the crystal's datasheet. > External series and shunt resistors are only required in exceptional > circumstances. See Microchip Application Notes AN826, AN849& AN949. >
AN826 "No records found" AN849 found; what is a "capasitors" ? due i no how to spel? AN949 found; real English. Thanks; 2 out of three is pretty good.
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piglet wrote:
> On 10/09/2015 09:13, Robert Baer wrote: >> It seems that an un-programmed PIC will not oscillate; the OSC pins >> are at ground in the "raw" state, and 10Megs between them obviously will >> not get them to logic (linear) level. > > If this is the Schumann calibrator project then the PIC device I think > you are referring to is the 16F648 which has an oscillator block capable > of several configurations. An unprogrammed config word will be all 1's > and will select RC oscillator with fosc/4 output - see datasheet > DS40044F page 96 (which your pdf reader may show as page 98). > > piglet > >
EggZactly Korrect! Still, the simple program did not work without the included config, and with ONE exception still does not work. Osc pins now near 2V logic, NO oscillation seen,ever. All "debug" LEDs off (those are via 10K from a pin to ground). Once (if you can count that high...) when probing around, i must ave touched something, because BINK! the LEDs went on. Powered off,then back on. No go; all LEDs off (except pin 4 LED indicating near 2V logic - standard blah blah). 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John S wrote:
> On 9/10/2015 3:13 AM, Robert Baer wrote: >> It seems that an un-programmed PIC will not oscillate; the OSC pins >> are at ground in the "raw" state, and 10Megs between them obviously will >> not get them to logic (linear) level. >> >> So, ASS-u-ME that the PIC is minimally programmed for an external >> 20Mhz crystal and one would like it to oscillate at that frequency and >> not higher, what changes would be needed, based on my old Semi-universal >> oscillator: >> >> Copied from "Semi-universal CMOS Xtal OSC" 11/11/2008 4:55 AM >> >> Plug crystal into appropiate socket; each has its specified load. >> The drive resistor shown is the maximum value that allows all >> frequencies of a given type to oscillate; some frequencies work >> with higher R values (less drive). >> NOTE: in *all* cases the frequency is higher than marked ( >> expected) value. >> Made using a 74AC02 which oscillates near 140Mhz with no Xtal >> plugged in (amplitude about 1V pk-pk at 5V supply). >> >> Xlo (Khz) >> 10M Marking | Measured >> +-----/\/\----+ --------+----------- >> | | 32 | 32.7711 >> | |\ | | 32.7710 >> +-----| >o----+---+ | 32.7721 >> | |/ | | --------+----------- >> | \ | 100 | 100.0033 >> | 680K / | | 100.0042 >> | \ | --------+----------- >> | Xlo | | 200 | 200.0951 >> +-----o o----+ \ --------+----------- >> | | / 6.8K 1000 | 1000.386 >> --- 10p --- \ >> --- 22p --- | Xhi (Mhz) >> | | | Marking | Measured >> | V | ----------+----------- >> | Xhi | 2.000 | 2.000188 >> +-----o o----+---+ | 2.000179 >> | | ----------+----------- >> --- --- 3.579545 | 3.580152 >> --- 18p --- 18p ----------+----------- >> | | 10.000 | 10.003115 >> V GND V ----------+----------- >> 12.000 | 12.007229 >> > > If I understand you correctly, you want to know how to modify your > circuit so that it produces a frequency no higher than the crystal's > marking. Yes? > >
Exactly. A few tens of Hertz more or less is acceptable; i could live with a few hundreds if absolutely necessary. Part value ideas?