Forums

Truck Starter/solenoid/battery help

Started by amdx September 25, 2014
In article <m057p5$e6u$1@dont-email.me>, gnuarm@gmail.com says...
> I can't remember, can you probe the point between the solenoid and the > starter? > > I have a problem with my truck now. Something is wrong with the > electrics. When I put the headlights on the voltage will drop and after > a few minutes the battery warning light comes on. I expect if I didn't > turn them off the engine would eventually die. Without the headlights > it seems to be able to power everything ok. > > -- > > Rick > >
That's usually signs of a bad alternator, a shorted diode most likely. Jamie
On 9/27/2014 12:03 PM, Maynard A. Philbrook Jr. wrote:
> In article <m057p5$e6u$1@dont-email.me>, gnuarm@gmail.com says... >> I can't remember, can you probe the point between the solenoid and the >> starter? >> >> I have a problem with my truck now. Something is wrong with the >> electrics. When I put the headlights on the voltage will drop and after >> a few minutes the battery warning light comes on. I expect if I didn't >> turn them off the engine would eventually die. Without the headlights >> it seems to be able to power everything ok. >> >> -- >> >> Rick >> >> > > That's usually signs of a bad alternator, a shorted diode most likely.
I was thinking it was likely the alternator... or the regulator, but I believe they build the regulators *in* the alternator these days, no? Another symptom is I hear a whine on the radio when I turn on the lights. Sounds to me like one phase of the alternator is not working. I'll have to swap it out. Only $133 for a rebuilt one. -- Rick
In article <m071kj$95b$1@dont-email.me>, gnuarm@gmail.com says...
> > On 9/27/2014 12:03 PM, Maynard A. Philbrook Jr. wrote: > > In article <m057p5$e6u$1@dont-email.me>, gnuarm@gmail.com says... > >> I can't remember, can you probe the point between the solenoid and the > >> starter? > >> > >> I have a problem with my truck now. Something is wrong with the > >> electrics. When I put the headlights on the voltage will drop and after > >> a few minutes the battery warning light comes on. I expect if I didn't > >> turn them off the engine would eventually die. Without the headlights > >> it seems to be able to power everything ok. > >> > >> -- > >> > >> Rick > >> > >> > > > > That's usually signs of a bad alternator, a shorted diode most likely. > > I was thinking it was likely the alternator... or the regulator, but I > believe they build the regulators *in* the alternator these days, no? > > Another symptom is I hear a whine on the radio when I turn on the > lights. Sounds to me like one phase of the alternator is not working. > I'll have to swap it out. Only $133 for a rebuilt one.
Yes. The whine from the radio is a bad DIODE, common problem. At night time if you have a GEN light, turn off the dash lights and you should see it on. Maybe. This also, depending on how bad it is, can cause the battery to run down if you don't use the truck often enough. You can rebuild it yourself if you feel confident. You can get rebuild kits around 50 bucks. Jamie
On Sat, 27 Sep 2014 15:02:18 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 9/27/2014 12:03 PM, Maynard A. Philbrook Jr. wrote: >> In article <m057p5$e6u$1@dont-email.me>, gnuarm@gmail.com says... >>> I can't remember, can you probe the point between the solenoid and the >>> starter? >>> >>> I have a problem with my truck now. Something is wrong with the >>> electrics. When I put the headlights on the voltage will drop and after >>> a few minutes the battery warning light comes on. I expect if I didn't >>> turn them off the engine would eventually die. Without the headlights >>> it seems to be able to power everything ok. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >> >> That's usually signs of a bad alternator, a shorted diode most likely. > >I was thinking it was likely the alternator... or the regulator, but I >believe they build the regulators *in* the alternator these days, no? > >Another symptom is I hear a whine on the radio when I turn on the >lights. Sounds to me like one phase of the alternator is not working. >I'll have to swap it out. Only $133 for a rebuilt one.
Ny neighbor had a Toyota truck that wasn't charging and it was a bad diode. He replaced the diode with one he had picked up somewhere and the alternator worked fine after that for several years until he sold the truck. I have personally rebuilt 4 or 5 alternators. The kits are usually pretty cheap. lots cheaper than a rebuilt. They have always been easy to fix. And even though I have bought rebuilt alternators that I had to take back because they were bad I have never rebuilt one that didn't work perfectly afterward. Eric Eric
rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/25/2014 10:26 PM, Ralph Barone wrote: >> amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote: >>> On 9/25/2014 4:02 PM, RobertMacy wrote: >>>> On Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:56:44 -0700, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> ...snip TOO much!.... >>>>> >>>> >>>> I had this exact, same symptom with my auto, 1972 classic. intermittent >>>> start, >>>> >>>> never got to measure but discovered that there was a build up of crud >>>> between the battery cable and the clamp to the battery cable that caused >>>> the whole problem. if not at battery, somewhere else along the path? >>> >>> Except that, when the starter fails to run I still have 11.9 volts on >>> the input side of the solenoid, when the starter does run the voltage >>> drops to 10.7 volts. Which I suggest is very close to battery voltage under starter load. >>> I'm fairly confident the problem is the contacts in the solenoid. >>> But as I've said I fixed the oil leak right above the starter/solenoid, >>> and hope to burn off any oil by use. The last 100 starter attempts >>> produce no failures. As I said very intermittent. >>> (or cleared itself he wrote with fingers crossed) >>> >>> Mikek >> >> I believe I've seen two problems on Toyotas. First was that the stationary >> contacts that the solenoid bridges got so worn that the solenoid would no >> longer reliably bridge them. Secondly, I believe I have also seen the >> brushes in the starter wear down to the point where they no longer made >> contact with the commutator and again, things stopped working (or maybe >> that was my compound mitre saw). > > The starter brushes will wear in any vehicle although they usually don't > stop making contact, instead the carbon wears away until the metal > backing wears down the contacts on the rotor destroying it (much like > your brake pads do). But maybe they put in a stop to prevent that. > > The solenoid in this model Toyota starter has an issue where the plunger > bridges the two contacts, but doesn't balance the pressure. So once one > starts to wear more than the other it has less pressure and becomes the > point of make/break taking all the wear. At some point the one contact > wears away to the point of not working... much sooner than if the bridge > across the two contacts was able to float and provide equal pressure at > all times. At least that is how I remember it.
Consider metallic ion transfer during a DC arc. It may not be unbalanced pressure causing one contact to appear to wear more than the other.
Den l=F8rdag den 27. september 2014 23.04.03 UTC+2 skrev Ralph Barone:
> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: >=20 > > On 9/25/2014 10:26 PM, Ralph Barone wrote: >=20 > >> amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote: >=20 > >>> On 9/25/2014 4:02 PM, RobertMacy wrote: >=20 > >>>> On Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:56:44 -0700, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>=20 > >>>>=20 >=20 > >>>>> ...snip TOO much!.... >=20 > >>>>>=20 >=20 > >>>>=20 >=20 > >>>> I had this exact, same symptom with my auto, 1972 classic. intermitt=
ent
>=20 > >>>> start, >=20 > >>>>=20 >=20 > >>>> never got to measure but discovered that there was a build up of cru=
d
>=20 > >>>> between the battery cable and the clamp to the battery cable that ca=
used
>=20 > >>>> the whole problem. if not at battery, somewhere else along the path? >=20 > >>>=20 >=20 > >>> Except that, when the starter fails to run I still have 11.9 volts =
on
>=20 > >>> the input side of the solenoid, when the starter does run the voltage >=20 > >>> drops to 10.7 volts. Which I suggest is very close to battery voltage=
under starter load.
>=20 > >>> I'm fairly confident the problem is the contacts in the solenoid. >=20 > >>> But as I've said I fixed the oil leak right above the starter/solenoi=
d,
>=20 > >>> and hope to burn off any oil by use. The last 100 starter attempts >=20 > >>> produce no failures. As I said very intermittent. >=20 > >>> (or cleared itself he wrote with fingers crossed) >=20 > >>>=20 >=20 > >>> Mikek >=20 > >>=20 >=20 > >> I believe I've seen two problems on Toyotas. First was that the statio=
nary
>=20 > >> contacts that the solenoid bridges got so worn that the solenoid would=
no
>=20 > >> longer reliably bridge them. Secondly, I believe I have also seen the >=20 > >> brushes in the starter wear down to the point where they no longer mad=
e
>=20 > >> contact with the commutator and again, things stopped working (or mayb=
e
>=20 > >> that was my compound mitre saw). >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > The starter brushes will wear in any vehicle although they usually don'=
t
>=20 > > stop making contact, instead the carbon wears away until the metal >=20 > > backing wears down the contacts on the rotor destroying it (much like >=20 > > your brake pads do). But maybe they put in a stop to prevent that. >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > The solenoid in this model Toyota starter has an issue where the plunge=
r
>=20 > > bridges the two contacts, but doesn't balance the pressure. So once on=
e
>=20 > > starts to wear more than the other it has less pressure and becomes the >=20 > > point of make/break taking all the wear. At some point the one contact >=20 > > wears away to the point of not working... much sooner than if the bridg=
e
>=20 > > across the two contacts was able to float and provide equal pressure at >=20 > > all times. At least that is how I remember it. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Consider metallic ion transfer during a DC arc. It may not be unbalanced >=20 > pressure causing one contact to appear to wear more than the other.
I'm quite sure thats the cause, on the few I've changed it has always been = the same contact that was nearly gone -Lasse
On 9/27/2014 4:19 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> Den l&#2013266168;rdag den 27. september 2014 23.04.03 UTC+2 skrev Ralph Barone: >> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On 9/25/2014 10:26 PM, Ralph Barone wrote: >> >>>> amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote: >> >>>>> On 9/25/2014 4:02 PM, RobertMacy wrote: >> >>>>>> On Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:56:44 -0700, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> ...snip TOO much!.... >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I had this exact, same symptom with my auto, 1972 classic. intermittent >> >>>>>> start, >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> never got to measure but discovered that there was a build up of crud >> >>>>>> between the battery cable and the clamp to the battery cable that caused >> >>>>>> the whole problem. if not at battery, somewhere else along the path? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Except that, when the starter fails to run I still have 11.9 volts on >> >>>>> the input side of the solenoid, when the starter does run the voltage >> >>>>> drops to 10.7 volts. Which I suggest is very close to battery voltage under starter load. >> >>>>> I'm fairly confident the problem is the contacts in the solenoid. >> >>>>> But as I've said I fixed the oil leak right above the starter/solenoid, >> >>>>> and hope to burn off any oil by use. The last 100 starter attempts >> >>>>> produce no failures. As I said very intermittent. >> >>>>> (or cleared itself he wrote with fingers crossed) >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Mikek >> >>>> >> >>>> I believe I've seen two problems on Toyotas. First was that the stationary >> >>>> contacts that the solenoid bridges got so worn that the solenoid would no >> >>>> longer reliably bridge them. Secondly, I believe I have also seen the >> >>>> brushes in the starter wear down to the point where they no longer made >> >>>> contact with the commutator and again, things stopped working (or maybe >> >>>> that was my compound mitre saw). >> >>> >> >>> The starter brushes will wear in any vehicle although they usually don't >> >>> stop making contact, instead the carbon wears away until the metal >> >>> backing wears down the contacts on the rotor destroying it (much like >> >>> your brake pads do). But maybe they put in a stop to prevent that. >> >>> >> >>> The solenoid in this model Toyota starter has an issue where the plunger >> >>> bridges the two contacts, but doesn't balance the pressure. So once one >> >>> starts to wear more than the other it has less pressure and becomes the >> >>> point of make/break taking all the wear. At some point the one contact >> >>> wears away to the point of not working... much sooner than if the bridge >> >>> across the two contacts was able to float and provide equal pressure at >> >>> all times. At least that is how I remember it. >> >> >> >> Consider metallic ion transfer during a DC arc. It may not be unbalanced >> >> pressure causing one contact to appear to wear more than the other. > > I'm quite sure thats the cause, on the few I've changed it has always been the same contact that was nearly gone > > -Lasse >
I think it is the contacts, but I refuse to fix it when it is working! If it is still working without fault a month from now, my theory will be it had oil on the contacts from the dripping valve cover. Which is very interesting, because this a common problem, but I have never heard the leaking oil mentioned. Mikek
On 9/27/2014 2:02 PM, rickman wrote:
> On 9/27/2014 12:03 PM, Maynard A. Philbrook Jr. wrote: >> In article <m057p5$e6u$1@dont-email.me>, gnuarm@gmail.com says... >>> I can't remember, can you probe the point between the solenoid and the >>> starter? >>> >>> I have a problem with my truck now. Something is wrong with the >>> electrics. When I put the headlights on the voltage will drop and after >>> a few minutes the battery warning light comes on. I expect if I didn't >>> turn them off the engine would eventually die. Without the headlights >>> it seems to be able to power everything ok. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >> >> That's usually signs of a bad alternator, a shorted diode most likely. > > I was thinking it was likely the alternator... or the regulator, but I > believe they build the regulators *in* the alternator these days, no? > > Another symptom is I hear a whine on the radio when I turn on the > lights. Sounds to me like one phase of the alternator is not working. > I'll have to swap it out. Only $133 for a rebuilt one. >
Young man, in my day it was $22 for an alternator. Mikek PS, I remember selling gas at 18.9 cents a gallon. I also remember my dads 51 Chevrolet pickup truck with the broken fuel gauge. He would buy $1.00 of gas every time he drove it. One day I was with him and he couldn't get the full $1 in the tank, we had quite a giggle! It had over 300k miles on it, and he painted it with a paint brush under the neighbors shade tree. :-)
In article <m07cli$mpd$1@dont-email.me>, nojunk@knology.net says...
> > On 9/27/2014 2:02 PM, rickman wrote: > > On 9/27/2014 12:03 PM, Maynard A. Philbrook Jr. wrote: > >> In article <m057p5$e6u$1@dont-email.me>, gnuarm@gmail.com says... > >>> I can't remember, can you probe the point between the solenoid and the > >>> starter? > >>> > >>> I have a problem with my truck now. Something is wrong with the > >>> electrics. When I put the headlights on the voltage will drop and after > >>> a few minutes the battery warning light comes on. I expect if I didn't > >>> turn them off the engine would eventually die. Without the headlights > >>> it seems to be able to power everything ok. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> Rick > >>> > >>> > >> > >> That's usually signs of a bad alternator, a shorted diode most likely. > > > > I was thinking it was likely the alternator... or the regulator, but I > > believe they build the regulators *in* the alternator these days, no? > > > > Another symptom is I hear a whine on the radio when I turn on the > > lights. Sounds to me like one phase of the alternator is not working. > > I'll have to swap it out. Only $133 for a rebuilt one. > > > Young man, in my day it was $22 for an alternator. > Mikek > > PS, I remember selling gas at 18.9 cents a gallon. > > I also remember my dads 51 Chevrolet pickup truck with the broken fuel > gauge. He would buy $1.00 of gas every time he drove it. One day I was > with him and he couldn't get the full $1 in the tank, we had quite a giggle! > It had over 300k miles on it, and he painted it with a paint brush > under the neighbors shade tree. :-)
Does that mean I am old too? I remember gas at 20 cents a gal. I remember one day my dad drove up to the pump and it went up to 25 cents, you should of heard him pissing and moaning! :) Jamie
"amdx" <nojunk@knology.net> wrote in message 
news:m07c6a$jpq$1@dont-email.me...
> On 9/27/2014 4:19 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: >> Den l&#2013266168;rdag den 27. september 2014 23.04.03 UTC+2 skrev Ralph Barone: >>> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On 9/25/2014 10:26 PM, Ralph Barone wrote: >>> >>>>> amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote: >>> >>>>>> On 9/25/2014 4:02 PM, RobertMacy wrote: >>> >>>>>>> On Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:56:44 -0700, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> ...snip TOO much!.... >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> I had this exact, same symptom with my auto, 1972 classic. >>>>>>> intermittent >>> >>>>>>> start, >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> never got to measure but discovered that there was a build up of >>>>>>> crud >>> >>>>>>> between the battery cable and the clamp to the battery cable that >>>>>>> caused >>> >>>>>>> the whole problem. if not at battery, somewhere else along the path? >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Except that, when the starter fails to run I still have 11.9 volts >>>>>> on >>> >>>>>> the input side of the solenoid, when the starter does run the voltage >>> >>>>>> drops to 10.7 volts. Which I suggest is very close to battery voltage >>>>>> under starter load. >>> >>>>>> I'm fairly confident the problem is the contacts in the solenoid. >>> >>>>>> But as I've said I fixed the oil leak right above the >>>>>> starter/solenoid, >>> >>>>>> and hope to burn off any oil by use. The last 100 starter attempts >>> >>>>>> produce no failures. As I said very intermittent. >>> >>>>>> (or cleared itself he wrote with fingers crossed) >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Mikek >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> I believe I've seen two problems on Toyotas. First was that the >>>>> stationary >>> >>>>> contacts that the solenoid bridges got so worn that the solenoid would >>>>> no >>> >>>>> longer reliably bridge them. Secondly, I believe I have also seen the >>> >>>>> brushes in the starter wear down to the point where they no longer >>>>> made >>> >>>>> contact with the commutator and again, things stopped working (or >>>>> maybe >>> >>>>> that was my compound mitre saw). >>> >>>> >>> >>>> The starter brushes will wear in any vehicle although they usually >>>> don't >>> >>>> stop making contact, instead the carbon wears away until the metal >>> >>>> backing wears down the contacts on the rotor destroying it (much like >>> >>>> your brake pads do). But maybe they put in a stop to prevent that. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> The solenoid in this model Toyota starter has an issue where the >>>> plunger >>> >>>> bridges the two contacts, but doesn't balance the pressure. So once >>>> one >>> >>>> starts to wear more than the other it has less pressure and becomes the >>> >>>> point of make/break taking all the wear. At some point the one contact >>> >>>> wears away to the point of not working... much sooner than if the >>>> bridge >>> >>>> across the two contacts was able to float and provide equal pressure at >>> >>>> all times. At least that is how I remember it. >>> >>> >>> >>> Consider metallic ion transfer during a DC arc. It may not be unbalanced >>> >>> pressure causing one contact to appear to wear more than the other. >> >> I'm quite sure thats the cause, on the few I've changed it has always >> been the same contact that was nearly gone >> >> -Lasse >> > I think it is the contacts, but I refuse to fix it when it is working! > If it is still working without fault a month from now, my theory will be > it had oil on the contacts from the dripping valve cover. > Which is very interesting, because this a common problem, but I have > never heard the leaking oil mentioned. > Mikek >
There is usually a round copper disk that moves to complete the connection between the two copper terminals. As the terminals and the disk erodes, the connection will get intermittent. As the disk rotates a bit, the contact is temporarily restored until the more worn part moves back into position. I have sometimes in the past just flipped the disk over to get more life from the solenoid. Yours might not be that way.