Forums

Truck Starter/solenoid/battery help

Started by amdx September 25, 2014
On 9/25/2014 4:02 PM, RobertMacy wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:56:44 -0700, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: > >> ...snip TOO much!.... >> > > I had this exact, same symptom with my auto, 1972 classic. intermittent > start, > > never got to measure but discovered that there was a build up of crud > between the battery cable and the clamp to the battery cable that caused > the whole problem. if not at battery, somewhere else along the path?
Except that, when the starter fails to run I still have 11.9 volts on the input side of the solenoid, when the starter does run the voltage drops to 10.7 volts. Which I suggest is very close to battery voltage under starter load. I'm fairly confident the problem is the contacts in the solenoid. But as I've said I fixed the oil leak right above the starter/solenoid, and hope to burn off any oil by use. The last 100 starter attempts produce no failures. As I said very intermittent. (or cleared itself he wrote with fingers crossed) Mikek
amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:
> On 9/25/2014 4:02 PM, RobertMacy wrote: >> On Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:56:44 -0700, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> ...snip TOO much!.... >>> >> >> I had this exact, same symptom with my auto, 1972 classic. intermittent >> start, >> >> never got to measure but discovered that there was a build up of crud >> between the battery cable and the clamp to the battery cable that caused >> the whole problem. if not at battery, somewhere else along the path? > > Except that, when the starter fails to run I still have 11.9 volts on > the input side of the solenoid, when the starter does run the voltage > drops to 10.7 volts. Which I suggest is very close to battery voltage under starter load. > I'm fairly confident the problem is the contacts in the solenoid. > But as I've said I fixed the oil leak right above the starter/solenoid, > and hope to burn off any oil by use. The last 100 starter attempts > produce no failures. As I said very intermittent. > (or cleared itself he wrote with fingers crossed) > > Mikek
I believe I've seen two problems on Toyotas. First was that the stationary contacts that the solenoid bridges got so worn that the solenoid would no longer reliably bridge them. Secondly, I believe I have also seen the brushes in the starter wear down to the point where they no longer made contact with the commutator and again, things stopped working (or maybe that was my compound mitre saw).
In article <832785067433387808.480825address_is-
invalid.invalid@shawnews>, address_is@invalid.invalid says...
> > amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote: > > On 9/25/2014 4:02 PM, RobertMacy wrote: > >> On Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:56:44 -0700, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >>> ...snip TOO much!.... > >>> > >> > >> I had this exact, same symptom with my auto, 1972 classic. intermittent > >> start, > >> > >> never got to measure but discovered that there was a build up of crud > >> between the battery cable and the clamp to the battery cable that caused > >> the whole problem. if not at battery, somewhere else along the path? > > > > Except that, when the starter fails to run I still have 11.9 volts on > > the input side of the solenoid, when the starter does run the voltage > > drops to 10.7 volts. Which I suggest is very close to battery voltage under starter load. > > I'm fairly confident the problem is the contacts in the solenoid. > > But as I've said I fixed the oil leak right above the starter/solenoid, > > and hope to burn off any oil by use. The last 100 starter attempts > > produce no failures. As I said very intermittent. > > (or cleared itself he wrote with fingers crossed) > > > > Mikek > > I believe I've seen two problems on Toyotas. First was that the stationary > contacts that the solenoid bridges got so worn that the solenoid would no > longer reliably bridge them. Secondly, I believe I have also seen the > brushes in the starter wear down to the point where they no longer made > contact with the commutator and again, things stopped working (or maybe > that was my compound mitre saw).
I'll put my 2 cents in.. Possible engine ground strap is loose and with all that oil running down the side, the attempts to start is heating up the bad joint and cooking the oil away, then has a semi connection to start, and it may start ok for some time after that. Taking a meter reading from the - side of the battery terminal over to the solenoid will show that you have 12 volts there. I had this problem years ago in an old ford straight 6 engine.. What flag me to the device giving me the problem was the fact that the alternator light would come on now and then and one day I noticed it would come on when I jumped into the engine, which made the engine move sideways a bit. The big issue is, if you don't get the oil problem corrected, it can cause an engine fire with all that oil, in the case of arcing. You could also have loose bolts on the starter! Jamie
On 9/25/2014 10:26 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
> amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote: >> On 9/25/2014 4:02 PM, RobertMacy wrote: >>> On Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:56:44 -0700, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> ...snip TOO much!.... >>>> >>> >>> I had this exact, same symptom with my auto, 1972 classic. intermittent >>> start, >>> >>> never got to measure but discovered that there was a build up of crud >>> between the battery cable and the clamp to the battery cable that caused >>> the whole problem. if not at battery, somewhere else along the path? >> >> Except that, when the starter fails to run I still have 11.9 volts on >> the input side of the solenoid, when the starter does run the voltage >> drops to 10.7 volts. Which I suggest is very close to battery voltage under starter load. >> I'm fairly confident the problem is the contacts in the solenoid. >> But as I've said I fixed the oil leak right above the starter/solenoid, >> and hope to burn off any oil by use. The last 100 starter attempts >> produce no failures. As I said very intermittent. >> (or cleared itself he wrote with fingers crossed) >> >> Mikek > > I believe I've seen two problems on Toyotas. First was that the stationary > contacts that the solenoid bridges got so worn that the solenoid would no > longer reliably bridge them. Secondly, I believe I have also seen the > brushes in the starter wear down to the point where they no longer made > contact with the commutator and again, things stopped working (or maybe > that was my compound mitre saw).
The starter brushes will wear in any vehicle although they usually don't stop making contact, instead the carbon wears away until the metal backing wears down the contacts on the rotor destroying it (much like your brake pads do). But maybe they put in a stop to prevent that. The solenoid in this model Toyota starter has an issue where the plunger bridges the two contacts, but doesn't balance the pressure. So once one starts to wear more than the other it has less pressure and becomes the point of make/break taking all the wear. At some point the one contact wears away to the point of not working... much sooner than if the bridge across the two contacts was able to float and provide equal pressure at all times. At least that is how I remember it. -- Rick
On 9/25/2014 11:02 PM, Maynard A. Philbrook Jr. wrote:
> In article <832785067433387808.480825address_is- > invalid.invalid@shawnews>, address_is@invalid.invalid says... >> >> amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote: >>> On 9/25/2014 4:02 PM, RobertMacy wrote: >>>> On Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:56:44 -0700, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> ...snip TOO much!.... >>>>> >>>> >>>> I had this exact, same symptom with my auto, 1972 classic. intermittent >>>> start, >>>> >>>> never got to measure but discovered that there was a build up of crud >>>> between the battery cable and the clamp to the battery cable that caused >>>> the whole problem. if not at battery, somewhere else along the path? >>> >>> Except that, when the starter fails to run I still have 11.9 volts on >>> the input side of the solenoid, when the starter does run the voltage >>> drops to 10.7 volts. Which I suggest is very close to battery voltage under starter load. >>> I'm fairly confident the problem is the contacts in the solenoid. >>> But as I've said I fixed the oil leak right above the starter/solenoid, >>> and hope to burn off any oil by use. The last 100 starter attempts >>> produce no failures. As I said very intermittent. >>> (or cleared itself he wrote with fingers crossed) >>> >>> Mikek >> >> I believe I've seen two problems on Toyotas. First was that the stationary >> contacts that the solenoid bridges got so worn that the solenoid would no >> longer reliably bridge them. Secondly, I believe I have also seen the >> brushes in the starter wear down to the point where they no longer made >> contact with the commutator and again, things stopped working (or maybe >> that was my compound mitre saw). > > I'll put my 2 cents in.. > > Possible engine ground strap is loose and with all that oil running > down the side, the attempts to start is heating up the bad joint and > cooking the oil away, then has a semi connection to start, and it may > start ok for some time after that.
That reminds me of something else I saw on my truck. Once the engine became intermittent and stopped on the highway. I lifted the hood (as if there would be something I could "see"...) and wiggled some things. I found a loose ground wire in the area of where the carburetor would have been if it had one, lol. I turned the key and it started. I tightened up the screw by hand and used a wrench when I got back to the house. So ground straps can come loose.
> Taking a meter reading from the - side of the battery terminal over > to the solenoid will show that you have 12 volts there.
Not if he can't get it to fail...
> I had this problem years ago in an old ford straight 6 engine..
That *was* years ago if it was a current car at the time. What 60's, early 70's?
> What flag me to the device giving me the problem was the fact that > the alternator light would come on now and then and one day I noticed > it would come on when I jumped into the engine, which made the > engine move sideways a bit. > > The big issue is, if you don't get the oil problem corrected, it can > cause an engine fire with all that oil, in the case of arcing. > > You could also have loose bolts on the starter! > > Jamie >
-- Rick
On Thu, 25 Sep 2014 15:22:01 -0700, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 9/25/2014 5:02 PM, RobertMacy wrote: >> On Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:56:44 -0700, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> ...snip TOO much!.... >>> >> >> I had this exact, same symptom with my auto, 1972 classic. intermittent >> start, >> >> never got to measure but discovered that there was a build up of crud >> between the battery cable and the clamp to the battery cable that caused >> the whole problem. if not at battery, somewhere else along the path? > > Uh, I think you snipped TOO much... I can't tell what you are replying > to... lol > > Ah, you are replying to my post, but not really to me. >
thank you for understanding, apologies, that was waaaay too much snip! but in defence my reply was more 'chiming in' than 'replying to' Forgot to mention the crud build up was NOT between the battery and the cable clamp, but inside the cable itself between the clamp and the rest of the cable! First time failed, thought was the battery, had battery replaced, worked great for a while, then started failing again. Thought the car's electrical was 'eating' batteries, because everytime a battery replacement, the cable was jostled just enough to make it last another 6 months to a year. Final solution was to replace the cable, and it actually crumbled apart at the clamp by that time.
On 2014-09-25, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:
> > > I'm having very intermittent lack of starter rotation on a Toyota > > T-100. Over the last 14 years I have replaced the contacts in the > > solenoid and more recently (1 to 2 years) replaced the starter. > > For trouble shooting I have a meter with one lead connected to the > > bolt on the solenoid and the other to the frame. (solenoid is built > into the starter) > > > The plan is; if I can get it to malfunction while trying to start it > > and the voltage on the solenoid is 12.7v vs 10.7 then I know the > > solenoid contacts didn't connect (if they clicked) or the starter is > > open (less likely).
starter brushes are wear parts too.
> Ok, after about ten more times > switching the key to start, the starter did NOT engage. and the > voltage stayed at 11.9v VS 10.7 when the starter engaged. > > So by my logic I suspect the contacts in the solenoid.
> Anyone have other thoughts and a way to differentiate. > Oh, I like that going for a differential diagnoses!
get under there with a jumper and connect the coil terminal to the battery terminal. if that works the problewm is before the solenoid if not measure the voltage on the switched solenoid contact. high is a bad motor low is a bad solenoid, if you want to reduce wear and load and improve safety while testing remove the spark plugs. -- umop apisdn --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---
On 2014-09-25, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:
> On 9/25/2014 4:02 PM, RobertMacy wrote: >> On Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:56:44 -0700, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> ...snip TOO much!.... >>> >> >> I had this exact, same symptom with my auto, 1972 classic. intermittent >> start, >> >> never got to measure but discovered that there was a build up of crud >> between the battery cable and the clamp to the battery cable that caused >> the whole problem. if not at battery, somewhere else along the path? > > Except that, when the starter fails to run I still have 11.9 volts on > the input side of the solenoid, when the starter does run the voltage > drops to 10.7 volts. Which I suggest is very close to battery voltage > under starter load.
It could still be a fault in the branch of the battery cable that goes to the starter. often the rest of the electrics are connected to the branch that goes to the altenator. -- umop apisdn --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---
On 9/26/2014 6:44 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
> On 2014-09-25, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote: >> On 9/25/2014 4:02 PM, RobertMacy wrote: >>> On Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:56:44 -0700, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> ...snip TOO much!.... >>>> >>> >>> I had this exact, same symptom with my auto, 1972 classic. intermittent >>> start, >>> >>> never got to measure but discovered that there was a build up of crud >>> between the battery cable and the clamp to the battery cable that caused >>> the whole problem. if not at battery, somewhere else along the path? >> >> Except that, when the starter fails to run I still have 11.9 volts on >> the input side of the solenoid, when the starter does run the voltage >> drops to 10.7 volts. Which I suggest is very close to battery voltage >> under starter load. > > It could still be a fault in the branch of the battery cable that > goes to the starter. often the rest of the electrics are connected to > the branch that goes to the alternator. >
. I don't see it that way. There is a cable directly from the battery to the solenoid. When the starter motor turns the voltage is 10.6v, when it doesn't turn it is 11.8v. If the problem was in the "branch of the battery cable that goes to the starter" then I wouldn't have 11.8v on the solenoid. It has to be after the 11.8v point or else the starter would run on 11.8v. If the problem was a bad connection in the "branch of the battery cable that goes to the starter" the all the voltage would drop across that bad connection. 1ohm 0.05ohm It would be like this series circuit +12v----^^^------^^^----grd The 1 ohm represents the bad connection and would have 11.43v across it, that leaves 0.57 volts across the 0.05 ohm that represents the starter. It must have worked all day today, no complaints from the wife and she was out with it all day. Mikek
On 9/26/2014 9:04 PM, amdx wrote:
> On 9/26/2014 6:44 PM, Jasen Betts wrote: >> On 2014-09-25, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote: >>> On 9/25/2014 4:02 PM, RobertMacy wrote: >>>> On Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:56:44 -0700, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> ...snip TOO much!.... >>>>> >>>> >>>> I had this exact, same symptom with my auto, 1972 classic. intermittent >>>> start, >>>> >>>> never got to measure but discovered that there was a build up of crud >>>> between the battery cable and the clamp to the battery cable that >>>> caused >>>> the whole problem. if not at battery, somewhere else along the path? >>> >>> Except that, when the starter fails to run I still have 11.9 volts on >>> the input side of the solenoid, when the starter does run the voltage >>> drops to 10.7 volts. Which I suggest is very close to battery voltage >>> under starter load. >> >> It could still be a fault in the branch of the battery cable that >> goes to the starter. often the rest of the electrics are connected to >> the branch that goes to the alternator. >> > . > > I don't see it that way. There is a cable directly from the battery > to the solenoid. When the starter motor turns the voltage is 10.6v, when > it doesn't turn it is 11.8v. If the problem was in the "branch of the > battery cable that goes to the starter" then I wouldn't have 11.8v on > the solenoid. It has to be after the 11.8v point or else the starter > would run on 11.8v. > If the problem was a bad connection in the "branch of the battery > cable that goes to the starter" the all the voltage would drop across > that bad connection. 1ohm 0.05ohm > It would be like this series circuit +12v----^^^------^^^----grd > The 1 ohm represents the bad connection and would have 11.43v across it, > that leaves 0.57 volts across the 0.05 ohm that represents the starter. > > It must have worked all day today, no complaints from the wife and she > was out with it all day.
There are TWO cables to the starter. The other one is from the ground of the battery and goes to some bolt on the engine. If this one is intermittently bad you will see exactly the same symptom as a bad contact unless you can probe the connection between the solenoid and the starter. 0.01ohm 0.05ohm 1ohm +12v----^^^------^^^------^^^----Battery Neg solenoid starter bad cable connection I can't remember, can you probe the point between the solenoid and the starter? I have a problem with my truck now. Something is wrong with the electrics. When I put the headlights on the voltage will drop and after a few minutes the battery warning light comes on. I expect if I didn't turn them off the engine would eventually die. Without the headlights it seems to be able to power everything ok. -- Rick