Forums

Truck Starter/solenoid/battery help

Started by amdx September 25, 2014
 >   I'm having very intermittent lack of starter rotation on a Toyota
 > T-100. Over the last 14 years I have replaced the contacts in the
 > solenoid and more recently (1 to 2 years) replaced the starter.
 >    For trouble shooting I have a meter with one lead connected to the
 > bolt on the solenoid and the other to the frame. (solenoid is built 
into the starter)

 >  The plan is; if I can get it to malfunction while trying to start it
 > and the voltage on the solenoid is 12.7v vs 10.7 then I know the
 > solenoid contacts didn't connect (if they clicked) or the starter is
 > open (less likely).
 >   If the solenoid clicks and the voltage drops to a low value then I
 > probably have a bad connection in the wiring.
 >
 > So far I have engaged the starter 25 times without malfunction.
 > Letting things cool, then I'll try again, if I hit 100 my work is 
 >done for this go round!

 >                             Mikek
 >


   Ok, after about ten more times
  switching the key to start, the starter did NOT engage. and the 
voltage stayed at 11.9v VS 10.7 when the starter engaged.

  So by my logic I suspect the contacts in the solenoid.

Anyone have other thoughts and a way to differentiate.
Oh, I like that going for a differential diagnoses!

                                  Mikek

PS. I lament selling my Simpson 260, I had to grab a panel meter and 
adjust it from a 75 volt meter to a 15 volt meter. Digital meters are
not real helpful for this type of testing.
On 9/25/2014 11:56 AM, amdx wrote:
> > > I'm having very intermittent lack of starter rotation on a Toyota > > T-100. Over the last 14 years I have replaced the contacts in the > > solenoid and more recently (1 to 2 years) replaced the starter. > > For trouble shooting I have a meter with one lead connected to the > > bolt on the solenoid and the other to the frame. (solenoid is built > into the starter) > > > The plan is; if I can get it to malfunction while trying to start it > > and the voltage on the solenoid is 12.7v vs 10.7 then I know the > > solenoid contacts didn't connect (if they clicked) or the starter is > > open (less likely). > > If the solenoid clicks and the voltage drops to a low value then I > > probably have a bad connection in the wiring. > > > > So far I have engaged the starter 25 times without malfunction. > > Letting things cool, then I'll try again, if I hit 100 my work is > >done for this go round! > > > Mikek > > > > > Ok, after about ten more times > switching the key to start, the starter did NOT engage. and the > voltage stayed at 11.9v VS 10.7 when the starter engaged. > > So by my logic I suspect the contacts in the solenoid. > > Anyone have other thoughts and a way to differentiate. > Oh, I like that going for a differential diagnoses! > > Mikek > > PS. I lament selling my Simpson 260, I had to grab a panel meter and > adjust it from a 75 volt meter to a 15 volt meter. Digital meters are > not real helpful for this type of testing.
My Fluke meter has a bar graph at the bottom to give you some insight to what is going on when the digits aren't clear. I have a T100 and had the same solenoid contact problem which I repaired. Actually I should be due for them to go bad again, it's on 206 kmi now. I don't think you can say which is bad as yet. All you know is there is an intermittent open between the point you are measuring along the path to the battery through ground. But given the known issue with the solenoid, I would suspect the contacts. How many miles since you replaced the contacts or the whole starter? -- Rick
On 9/25/2014 11:56 AM, rickman wrote:
> On 9/25/2014 11:56 AM, amdx wrote: >> >> > I'm having very intermittent lack of starter rotation on a Toyota >> > T-100. Over the last 14 years I have replaced the contacts in the >> > solenoid and more recently (1 to 2 years) replaced the starter. >> > For trouble shooting I have a meter with one lead connected to the >> > bolt on the solenoid and the other to the frame. (solenoid is built >> into the starter) >> >> > The plan is; if I can get it to malfunction while trying to start it >> > and the voltage on the solenoid is 12.7v vs 10.7 then I know the >> > solenoid contacts didn't connect (if they clicked) or the starter is >> > open (less likely). >> > If the solenoid clicks and the voltage drops to a low value then I >> > probably have a bad connection in the wiring. >> > >> > So far I have engaged the starter 25 times without malfunction. >> > Letting things cool, then I'll try again, if I hit 100 my work is >> >done for this go round! >> >> > Mikek >> > >> >> >> Ok, after about ten more times >> switching the key to start, the starter did NOT engage. and the >> voltage stayed at 11.9v VS 10.7 when the starter engaged. >> >> So by my logic I suspect the contacts in the solenoid. >> >> Anyone have other thoughts and a way to differentiate. >> Oh, I like that going for a differential diagnoses! >> >> Mikek >> >> PS. I lament selling my Simpson 260, I had to grab a panel meter and >> adjust it from a 75 volt meter to a 15 volt meter. Digital meters are >> not real helpful for this type of testing. > > My Fluke meter has a bar graph at the bottom to give you some insight to > what is going on when the digits aren't clear. > > I have a T100 and had the same solenoid contact problem which I > repaired. Actually I should be due for them to go bad again, it's on > 206 kmi now. > > I don't think you can say which is bad as yet. All you know is there is > an intermittent open between the point you are measuring along the path > to the battery through ground.
I think I know a little more than that, the starter is like a 0.05 ohm resistor, so if I had a bad connection chances are the voltage would drop a lot lower than 11.8V with the starter engaged. YMMV
> But given the known issue with the solenoid, I would suspect the contacts.
I think so, but I can add a wrinkle, I noted oil dripping from the starter/solenoid, so a new theory is the oil has contaminated the contacts in the solenoid causing intermittent operation. I'm going to hold off until the problem becomes more common or clears itself. I have tighten the very loose bolts holding the valve covers.
>How many miles since you replaced the contacts or the whole starter?
I don't know, but we don't put 5,000 a year on the truck, and the starter was replaced within two years. 91k miles now on a 17 year old vehicle, but the previous owner put on more than our 5K per year in 3 years, before we bought it. ( I thinking it had about 40k miles when we got it) Mikek
On 9/25/2014 1:23 PM, amdx wrote:
> On 9/25/2014 11:56 AM, rickman wrote: >> On 9/25/2014 11:56 AM, amdx wrote: >>> >>> > I'm having very intermittent lack of starter rotation on a Toyota >>> > T-100. Over the last 14 years I have replaced the contacts in the >>> > solenoid and more recently (1 to 2 years) replaced the starter. >>> > For trouble shooting I have a meter with one lead connected to the >>> > bolt on the solenoid and the other to the frame. (solenoid is built >>> into the starter) >>> >>> > The plan is; if I can get it to malfunction while trying to start it >>> > and the voltage on the solenoid is 12.7v vs 10.7 then I know the >>> > solenoid contacts didn't connect (if they clicked) or the starter is >>> > open (less likely). >>> > If the solenoid clicks and the voltage drops to a low value then I >>> > probably have a bad connection in the wiring. >>> > >>> > So far I have engaged the starter 25 times without malfunction. >>> > Letting things cool, then I'll try again, if I hit 100 my work is >>> >done for this go round! >>> >>> > Mikek >>> > >>> >>> >>> Ok, after about ten more times >>> switching the key to start, the starter did NOT engage. and the >>> voltage stayed at 11.9v VS 10.7 when the starter engaged. >>> >>> So by my logic I suspect the contacts in the solenoid. >>> >>> Anyone have other thoughts and a way to differentiate. >>> Oh, I like that going for a differential diagnoses! >>> >>> Mikek >>> >>> PS. I lament selling my Simpson 260, I had to grab a panel meter and >>> adjust it from a 75 volt meter to a 15 volt meter. Digital meters are >>> not real helpful for this type of testing. >> >> My Fluke meter has a bar graph at the bottom to give you some insight to >> what is going on when the digits aren't clear. >> >> I have a T100 and had the same solenoid contact problem which I >> repaired. Actually I should be due for them to go bad again, it's on >> 206 kmi now. >> >> I don't think you can say which is bad as yet. All you know is there is >> an intermittent open between the point you are measuring along the path >> to the battery through ground. > > I think I know a little more than that, the starter is like a 0.05 ohm > resistor, so if I had a bad connection chances are the voltage would > drop a lot lower than 11.8V with the starter engaged. YMMV
If the connection were intermittent it could be completely open and pass no current. That's what you think is happening in the solenoid, no? Starters have brushes... You would only notice a voltage change if the bad connection was between the meter and the battery. A bad ground connection would still read high on your meter.
>> But given the known issue with the solenoid, I would suspect the >> contacts. > > I think so, but I can add a wrinkle, I noted oil dripping from the > starter/solenoid, so a new theory is the oil has contaminated the > contacts in the solenoid causing intermittent operation. > I'm going to hold off until the problem becomes more common > or clears itself. I have tighten the very loose bolts holding the > valve covers.
Isn't the solenoid on top of the starter? Is the oil inside the solenoid?
>> How many miles since you replaced the contacts or the whole starter? > > I don't know, but we don't put 5,000 a year on the truck, and the > starter was replaced within two years. 91k miles now on a 17 year old > vehicle, but the previous owner put on more than our 5K per year in 3 > years, before we bought it. ( I thinking it had about 40k miles when we > got it)
That makes me think it is not the solenoid unless it really is your oil problem. Mine wore out around 100 kmiles and I recall that was typical. I got mine a year old with 11 kmiles on the odometer. The only complaint with the original owner is they smoked and I could smell it in the summer when I turned on the AC for maybe three years! It has held up well, but repairs are *expensive*. The AC seems to be a regular repair item. $1k every 5 or 6 years. Maybe I should get a Chevy unit? -- Rick
Den torsdag den 25. september 2014 17.56.46 UTC+2 skrev amdx:
> > I'm having very intermittent lack of starter rotation on a Toyota > > > T-100. Over the last 14 years I have replaced the contacts in the > > > solenoid and more recently (1 to 2 years) replaced the starter. > > > For trouble shooting I have a meter with one lead connected to the > > > bolt on the solenoid and the other to the frame. (solenoid is built > > into the starter) > > > > > The plan is; if I can get it to malfunction while trying to start it > > > and the voltage on the solenoid is 12.7v vs 10.7 then I know the > > > solenoid contacts didn't connect (if they clicked) or the starter is > > > open (less likely). > > > If the solenoid clicks and the voltage drops to a low value then I > > > probably have a bad connection in the wiring. > > > > > > So far I have engaged the starter 25 times without malfunction. > > > Letting things cool, then I'll try again, if I hit 100 my work is > > >done for this go round! > > > > > Mikek > > > > > > > > > Ok, after about ten more times > > switching the key to start, the starter did NOT engage. and the > > voltage stayed at 11.9v VS 10.7 when the starter engaged. > > > > So by my logic I suspect the contacts in the solenoid. > > > > Anyone have other thoughts and a way to differentiate. > > Oh, I like that going for a differential diagnoses! >
measure across the contacts?, there's a bolt on each side of the starter -Lasse
On 9/25/2014 1:54 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> Den torsdag den 25. september 2014 17.56.46 UTC+2 skrev amdx: >>> I'm having very intermittent lack of starter rotation on a Toyota >> >> > T-100. Over the last 14 years I have replaced the contacts in the >> >> > solenoid and more recently (1 to 2 years) replaced the starter. >> >> > For trouble shooting I have a meter with one lead connected to the >> >> > bolt on the solenoid and the other to the frame. (solenoid is built >> >> into the starter) >> >> >> >> > The plan is; if I can get it to malfunction while trying to start it >> >> > and the voltage on the solenoid is 12.7v vs 10.7 then I know the >> >> > solenoid contacts didn't connect (if they clicked) or the starter is >> >> > open (less likely). >> >> > If the solenoid clicks and the voltage drops to a low value then I >> >> > probably have a bad connection in the wiring. >> >> > >> >> > So far I have engaged the starter 25 times without malfunction. >> >> > Letting things cool, then I'll try again, if I hit 100 my work is >> >> >done for this go round! >> >> >> >> > Mikek >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Ok, after about ten more times >> >> switching the key to start, the starter did NOT engage. and the >> >> voltage stayed at 11.9v VS 10.7 when the starter engaged. >> >> >> >> So by my logic I suspect the contacts in the solenoid. >> >> >> >> Anyone have other thoughts and a way to differentiate. >> >> Oh, I like that going for a differential diagnoses! >> > > measure across the contacts?, there's a bolt on each side of the starter > > > -Lasse >
The Toyota starter/solenoid is not built that way. Thanks, Mikek
Den torsdag den 25. september 2014 22.19.27 UTC+2 skrev amdx:
> On 9/25/2014 1:54 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > Den torsdag den 25. september 2014 17.56.46 UTC+2 skrev amdx: > > >>> I'm having very intermittent lack of starter rotation on a Toyota > > >> > > >> > T-100. Over the last 14 years I have replaced the contacts in the > > >> > > >> > solenoid and more recently (1 to 2 years) replaced the starter. > > >> > > >> > For trouble shooting I have a meter with one lead connected to the > > >> > > >> > bolt on the solenoid and the other to the frame. (solenoid is built > > >> > > >> into the starter) > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > The plan is; if I can get it to malfunction while trying to start it > > >> > > >> > and the voltage on the solenoid is 12.7v vs 10.7 then I know the > > >> > > >> > solenoid contacts didn't connect (if they clicked) or the starter is > > >> > > >> > open (less likely). > > >> > > >> > If the solenoid clicks and the voltage drops to a low value then I > > >> > > >> > probably have a bad connection in the wiring. > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > So far I have engaged the starter 25 times without malfunction. > > >> > > >> > Letting things cool, then I'll try again, if I hit 100 my work is > > >> > > >> >done for this go round! > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Mikek > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Ok, after about ten more times > > >> > > >> switching the key to start, the starter did NOT engage. and the > > >> > > >> voltage stayed at 11.9v VS 10.7 when the starter engaged. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> So by my logic I suspect the contacts in the solenoid. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Anyone have other thoughts and a way to differentiate. > > >> > > >> Oh, I like that going for a differential diagnoses! > > >> > > > > > > measure across the contacts?, there's a bolt on each side of the starter > > > > > > > > > -Lasse > > > > > The Toyota starter/solenoid is not built that way. >
it doesn't look like this? http://youtu.be/wgGWQ02GtEk?t=3m11s I've had a few Toyotas and replaced contacts on them -Lasse
On 9/25/2014 3:29 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> Den torsdag den 25. september 2014 22.19.27 UTC+2 skrev amdx: >> On 9/25/2014 1:54 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: >> >>> Den torsdag den 25. september 2014 17.56.46 UTC+2 skrev amdx: >> >>>>> I'm having very intermittent lack of starter rotation on a Toyota >> >>>> >> >>>> > T-100. Over the last 14 years I have replaced the contacts in the >> >>>> >> >>>> > solenoid and more recently (1 to 2 years) replaced the starter. >> >>>> >> >>>> > For trouble shooting I have a meter with one lead connected to the >> >>>> >> >>>> > bolt on the solenoid and the other to the frame. (solenoid is built >> >>>> >> >>>> into the starter) >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> > The plan is; if I can get it to malfunction while trying to start it >> >>>> >> >>>> > and the voltage on the solenoid is 12.7v vs 10.7 then I know the >> >>>> >> >>>> > solenoid contacts didn't connect (if they clicked) or the starter is >> >>>> >> >>>> > open (less likely). >> >>>> >> >>>> > If the solenoid clicks and the voltage drops to a low value then I >> >>>> >> >>>> > probably have a bad connection in the wiring. >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>> > So far I have engaged the starter 25 times without malfunction. >> >>>> >> >>>> > Letting things cool, then I'll try again, if I hit 100 my work is >> >>>> >> >>>> >done for this go round! >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> > Mikek >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Ok, after about ten more times >> >>>> >> >>>> switching the key to start, the starter did NOT engage. and the >> >>>> >> >>>> voltage stayed at 11.9v VS 10.7 when the starter engaged. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> So by my logic I suspect the contacts in the solenoid. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Anyone have other thoughts and a way to differentiate. >> >>>> >> >>>> Oh, I like that going for a differential diagnoses! >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> measure across the contacts?, there's a bolt on each side of the starter >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -Lasse >> >>> >> >> The Toyota starter/solenoid is not built that way. >> > > it doesn't look like this? http://youtu.be/wgGWQ02GtEk?t=3m11s > > I've had a few Toyotas and replaced contacts on them > > > -Lasse >
I am probably wrong. If I can get a lead on the backside I'll try that-- the next time I start troubleshooting. For now I'm going to believe the oil leaking from the valve cover contaminated the contacts. I tightened up the valve cover and hopefully eliminated any more oil leaking. I did over 100 reps on the starter and didn't have a malfunction. I think For the $15 the contacts will cost I may just get them and have them ready to change when I get a day off Thanks again, Mikek
On Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:56:44 -0700, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

> ...snip TOO much!.... >
I had this exact, same symptom with my auto, 1972 classic. intermittent start, never got to measure but discovered that there was a build up of crud between the battery cable and the clamp to the battery cable that caused the whole problem. if not at battery, somewhere else along the path?
On 9/25/2014 5:02 PM, RobertMacy wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:56:44 -0700, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: > >> ...snip TOO much!.... >> > > I had this exact, same symptom with my auto, 1972 classic. intermittent > start, > > never got to measure but discovered that there was a build up of crud > between the battery cable and the clamp to the battery cable that caused > the whole problem. if not at battery, somewhere else along the path?
Uh, I think you snipped TOO much... I can't tell what you are replying to... lol Ah, you are replying to my post, but not really to me. -- Rick