BLDC controller and ATF16V8B/GAL16V8B/PAL16V8B

Den l=F8rdag den 20. september 2014 16.01.58 UTC+2 skrev edward....@gmail.c=
om:
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > > BLDC controller:
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > > http://173.224.223.62/motor
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > > I am thinking about moving the PIC 3 feet away (closer to t=
he control panel) from this board.  There are 6 outputs in 6 possible state=
s.  Each pair of MOSFET can be in HI, LO or KILL (both HI and LO) states.  =
I can add an I/O expander or shift register to minimize the connections, bu=
t that increase the chance of KILL states due to communication error.  So, =
i am thinking about a 3 to 6 decoder like ATF16V8B (EE) or even GAL16V8B/PA=
L16V8B.  I need the EE version just to develop the logic, but don't really =
want it changeable or erasable anyway.  Or just buy enough GAL16V8B/PAL16V8=
B to burn and dump them.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > > I read that these are old chips and moderm USB programmer m=
ight not handle them well.  Can someone recommend a cheap programmer for th=
em?
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > I can't  read what those drivers are, but most of them will n=
ot let you turn on both the top an bottom fet at the same time.=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > Most have independent HI and LO inputs and outputs.  Even if th=
e gate driver can prevent it, the controller should not try to test it.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > you'll need inputs for either either phase voltages or hall s=
ensors to run a BLDC motor=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > Signal and sensors can run on thinner wires or even opto-isolat=
ed.  Phased power lines cannot be opto-isolated.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > There will be only one signal input, with frequency controlled by=
 micro or 555.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > are you going to have another switching converter to set the voltag=
e? a bldc motor is not a stepper=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > Yes, or it could just be an array of batteries.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > you don't want any speed control or current limiting?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> We could still control the speed with frequency of the clock pulses.=20

that is not how you drive a BLDC motor, it is not a stepper motor

-Lasse

On Saturday, September 20, 2014 7:25:30 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christense=
n wrote:
> Den l=F8rdag den 20. september 2014 16.01.58 UTC+2 skrev edward....@gmail=
.com:
>=20
> > > > > > > > > BLDC controller:
>=20
> > > > > > > > > http://173.224.223.62/motor
>=20
> > > > > > > > > I am thinking about moving the PIC 3 feet away (closer to=
 the control panel) from this board.  There are 6 outputs in 6 possible sta=
tes.  Each pair of MOSFET can be in HI, LO or KILL (both HI and LO) states.=
  I can add an I/O expander or shift register to minimize the connections, =
but that increase the chance of KILL states due to communication error.  So=
, i am thinking about a 3 to 6 decoder like ATF16V8B (EE) or even GAL16V8B/=
PAL16V8B.  I need the EE version just to develop the logic, but don't reall=
y want it changeable or erasable anyway.  Or just buy enough GAL16V8B/PAL16=
V8B to burn and dump them.
>=20
> > > > > > > > > I read that these are old chips and moderm USB programmer=
 might not handle them well.  Can someone recommend a cheap programmer for =
them?
>=20
> > > > > > > > I can't  read what those drivers are, but most of them will=
 not let you turn on both the top an bottom fet at the same time.=20
>=20
> > > > > > > Most have independent HI and LO inputs and outputs.  Even if =
the gate driver can prevent it, the controller should not try to test it.
>=20
> > > > > > > > you'll need inputs for either either phase voltages or hall=
 sensors to run a BLDC motor=20
>=20
> > > > > > > Signal and sensors can run on thinner wires or even opto-isol=
ated.  Phased power lines cannot be opto-isolated.
>=20
> > > > > > There will be only one signal input, with frequency controlled =
by micro or 555.
>=20
> > > > > are you going to have another switching converter to set the volt=
age? a bldc motor is not a stepper=20
>=20
> > > > Yes, or it could just be an array of batteries.
>=20
> > > you don't want any speed control or current limiting?
>=20
> > We could still control the speed with frequency of the clock pulses.=20
>=20
> that is not how you drive a BLDC motor, it is not a stepper motor

We drive the Johnson FSM with variable frequency pulses and output:

;   Johnson         AHI ALO BHI BLO CHI CLO
;  0   0   0         0   0   1   0   0   1
;  1   0   0         1   0   0   0   0   1
;  1   1   0         1   0   0   1   0   0
;  1   1   1         0   0   0   1   1   0
;  0   1   1         0   1   0   0   1   0
;  0   0   1         0   1   1   0   0   0

The driving frequency is 3x the RPM cycle.

Den l=F8rdag den 20. september 2014 18.01.47 UTC+2 skrev edward....@gmail.c=
om:
> On Saturday, September 20, 2014 7:25:30 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christen=
sen wrote:
>=20
> > Den l=F8rdag den 20. september 2014 16.01.58 UTC+2 skrev edward....@gma=
il.com:
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > > > > BLDC controller:
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > > > > http://173.224.223.62/motor
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > > > > I am thinking about moving the PIC 3 feet away (closer =
to the control panel) from this board.  There are 6 outputs in 6 possible s=
tates.  Each pair of MOSFET can be in HI, LO or KILL (both HI and LO) state=
s.  I can add an I/O expander or shift register to minimize the connections=
, but that increase the chance of KILL states due to communication error.  =
So, i am thinking about a 3 to 6 decoder like ATF16V8B (EE) or even GAL16V8=
B/PAL16V8B.  I need the EE version just to develop the logic, but don't rea=
lly want it changeable or erasable anyway.  Or just buy enough GAL16V8B/PAL=
16V8B to burn and dump them.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > > > > I read that these are old chips and moderm USB programm=
er might not handle them well.  Can someone recommend a cheap programmer fo=
r them?
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > > > I can't  read what those drivers are, but most of them wi=
ll not let you turn on both the top an bottom fet at the same time.=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > > Most have independent HI and LO inputs and outputs.  Even i=
f the gate driver can prevent it, the controller should not try to test it.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > > > you'll need inputs for either either phase voltages or ha=
ll sensors to run a BLDC motor=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > > Signal and sensors can run on thinner wires or even opto-is=
olated.  Phased power lines cannot be opto-isolated.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > There will be only one signal input, with frequency controlle=
d by micro or 555.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > are you going to have another switching converter to set the vo=
ltage? a bldc motor is not a stepper=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > Yes, or it could just be an array of batteries.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > you don't want any speed control or current limiting?
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > We could still control the speed with frequency of the clock pulses.=
=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > that is not how you drive a BLDC motor, it is not a stepper motor
>=20
>=20
>=20
> We drive the Johnson FSM with variable frequency pulses and output:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ;   Johnson         AHI ALO BHI BLO CHI CLO
>=20
> ;  0   0   0         0   0   1   0   0   1
>=20
> ;  1   0   0         1   0   0   0   0   1
>=20
> ;  1   1   0         1   0   0   1   0   0
>=20
> ;  1   1   1         0   0   0   1   1   0
>=20
> ;  0   1   1         0   1   0   0   1   0
>=20
> ;  0   0   1         0   1   1   0   0   0
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The driving frequency is 3x the RPM cycle.

my point is that you can't control the speed by stepping through the sequen=
ce
faster or slower like you would a stepper motor.=20

The sequence must be controlled by the feedback from hall sensors,=20
or if sensor-less phase voltages=20

voltage or pwm of the phases control the speed


-Lasse

> > > > > > > > > > > BLDC controller:
>=20
> > > > > > > > > > > http://173.224.223.62/motor
>=20
> > > > > > > > > > > I am thinking about moving the PIC 3 feet away (close=
r to the control panel) from this board.  There are 6 outputs in 6 possible=
 states.  Each pair of MOSFET can be in HI, LO or KILL (both HI and LO) sta=
tes.  I can add an I/O expander or shift register to minimize the connectio=
ns, but that increase the chance of KILL states due to communication error.=
  So, i am thinking about a 3 to 6 decoder like ATF16V8B (EE) or even GAL16=
V8B/PAL16V8B.  I need the EE version just to develop the logic, but don't r=
eally want it changeable or erasable anyway.  Or just buy enough GAL16V8B/P=
AL16V8B to burn and dump them.
>=20
> > > > > > > > > > > I read that these are old chips and moderm USB progra=
mmer might not handle them well.  Can someone recommend a cheap programmer =
for them?
>=20
> > > > > > > > > > I can't  read what those drivers are, but most of them =
will not let you turn on both the top an bottom fet at the same time.=20
>=20
> > > > > > > > > Most have independent HI and LO inputs and outputs.  Even=
 if the gate driver can prevent it, the controller should not try to test i=
t.
>=20
> > > > > > > > > > you'll need inputs for either either phase voltages or =
hall sensors to run a BLDC motor=20
>=20
> > > > > > > > > Signal and sensors can run on thinner wires or even opto-=
isolated.  Phased power lines cannot be opto-isolated.
>=20
> > > > > > > > There will be only one signal input, with frequency control=
led by micro or 555.
>=20
> > > > > > > are you going to have another switching converter to set the =
voltage? a bldc motor is not a stepper=20
>=20
> > > > > > Yes, or it could just be an array of batteries.
>=20
> > > > > you don't want any speed control or current limiting?
>=20
> > > > We could still control the speed with frequency of the clock pulses=
.=20
>=20
> > > that is not how you drive a BLDC motor, it is not a stepper motor
>=20
> > We drive the Johnson FSM with variable frequency pulses and output:
>=20
> > ;   Johnson         AHI ALO BHI BLO CHI CLO
> > ;  0   0   0         0   0   1   0   0   1
> > ;  1   0   0         1   0   0   0   0   1
> > ;  1   1   0         1   0   0   1   0   0
> > ;  1   1   1         0   0   0   1   1   0
> > ;  0   1   1         0   1   0   0   1   0
> > ;  0   0   1         0   1   1   0   0   0
>=20
> > The driving frequency is 3x the RPM cycle.
>=20

> my point is that you can't control the speed by stepping through the sequ=
ence faster or slower like you would a stepper motor.=20

Yes, the controller can only adjust the frequency slightly in conjunction w=
ith the sensor.  The sensor is opto-isolated and routed to the controller s=
eparately.  This driver board is only dealing with output, no point in conn=
ecting the sensor than back to the controlling micro.
=20
> The sequence must be controlled by the feedback from hall sensors, or if =
sensor-less phase voltages voltage or pwm of the phases control the speed

We can PWM it with a multi-level control signal, for example:

0V 6V 0V 6V 0V 6V 0V 12V 0V 6V 0V 6V 0V 6V
|    state 000       | |     state 100      |
|  BH -- BH -- BH -- | |    AH -- AH -- AH  |
|  CL -- CL -- CL -- | |    CL -- CL -- CL  |=20

Den l=F8rdag den 20. september 2014 19.32.45 UTC+2 skrev edward....@gmail.c=
om:
> > > > > > > > > > > > BLDC controller:
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > http://173.224.223.62/motor
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > I am thinking about moving the PIC 3 feet away (clo=
ser to the control panel) from this board.  There are 6 outputs in 6 possib=
le states.  Each pair of MOSFET can be in HI, LO or KILL (both HI and LO) s=
tates.  I can add an I/O expander or shift register to minimize the connect=
ions, but that increase the chance of KILL states due to communication erro=
r.  So, i am thinking about a 3 to 6 decoder like ATF16V8B (EE) or even GAL=
16V8B/PAL16V8B.  I need the EE version just to develop the logic, but don't=
 really want it changeable or erasable anyway.  Or just buy enough GAL16V8B=
/PAL16V8B to burn and dump them.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > I read that these are old chips and moderm USB prog=
rammer might not handle them well.  Can someone recommend a cheap programme=
r for them?
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > > > > > I can't  read what those drivers are, but most of the=
m will not let you turn on both the top an bottom fet at the same time.=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > > > > Most have independent HI and LO inputs and outputs.  Ev=
en if the gate driver can prevent it, the controller should not try to test=
 it.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > > > > > you'll need inputs for either either phase voltages o=
r hall sensors to run a BLDC motor=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > > > > Signal and sensors can run on thinner wires or even opt=
o-isolated.  Phased power lines cannot be opto-isolated.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > > > There will be only one signal input, with frequency contr=
olled by micro or 555.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > > are you going to have another switching converter to set th=
e voltage? a bldc motor is not a stepper=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > > Yes, or it could just be an array of batteries.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > > you don't want any speed control or current limiting?
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > > We could still control the speed with frequency of the clock puls=
es.=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > > that is not how you drive a BLDC motor, it is not a stepper motor
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > We drive the Johnson FSM with variable frequency pulses and output:
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > ;   Johnson         AHI ALO BHI BLO CHI CLO
>=20
> > > ;  0   0   0         0   0   1   0   0   1
>=20
> > > ;  1   0   0         1   0   0   0   0   1
>=20
> > > ;  1   1   0         1   0   0   1   0   0
>=20
> > > ;  1   1   1         0   0   0   1   1   0
>=20
> > > ;  0   1   1         0   1   0   0   1   0
>=20
> > > ;  0   0   1         0   1   1   0   0   0
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > The driving frequency is 3x the RPM cycle.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > my point is that you can't control the speed by stepping through the se=
quence faster or slower like you would a stepper motor.=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Yes, the controller can only adjust the frequency slightly in conjunction=
=20
>with the sensor.  The sensor is opto-isolated and routed to the controller=
=20
>separately.  This driver board is only dealing with output, no point in=20
>connecting the sensor than back to the controlling micro.

commutation must be in sync with the rotor you can't change the frequency

>=20
> =20
>=20
> > The sequence must be controlled by the feedback from hall sensors, or i=
f sensor-less phase voltages voltage or pwm of the phases control the speed
>=20
>=20
>=20
> We can PWM it with a multi-level control signal, for example:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> 0V 6V 0V 6V 0V 6V 0V 12V 0V 6V 0V 6V 0V 6V
>=20
> |    state 000       | |     state 100      |
>=20
> |  BH -- BH -- BH -- | |    AH -- AH -- AH  |
>=20
> |  CL -- CL -- CL -- | |    CL -- CL -- CL  |

but what's the point? it's just more unnecessary hardware=20

six pins on a micro and you are done

-Lasse

On 9/20/2014 12:07 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

> but what's the point? it's just more unnecessary hardware
> six pins on a micro and you are done

+42

You can put an MCU on the board in less space and for less
total cost (DM+DL) than an MCU *and* a PAL/GAL!  Just
condition the outputs (pullups/downs/inverters/buffers)
so the MCU's outputs can't sit in an unhappy state if
the MCU refuses to start up.

Bring the smarts *into* the field instead of dealing with
cables, etc.  (what happens if the cable is unplugged?)

On Saturday, September 20, 2014 12:33:58 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/20/2014 12:07 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> 
> > but what's the point? it's just more unnecessary hardware six pins on a micro and you are done
> 
> You can put an MCU on the board in less space and for less total cost (DM+DL) than an MCU *and* a PAL/GAL!  Just condition the outputs (pullups/downs/inverters/buffers) so the MCU's outputs can't sit in an unhappy state if the MCU refuses to start up.

The micro needs to be in two different places. So, it's either micro + micro or micro + gal/pal.

> Bring the smarts *into* the field instead of dealing with cables, etc.  (what happens if the cable is unplugged?)

Then no signal, and the motor would be free running, or stop eventually.

Den s=F8ndag den 21. september 2014 04.37.20 UTC+2 skrev edward....@gmail.c=
om:
> On Saturday, September 20, 2014 12:33:58 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>=20
> > On 9/20/2014 12:07 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > but what's the point? it's just more unnecessary hardware six pins on=
 a micro and you are done
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > You can put an MCU on the board in less space and for less total cost (=
DM+DL) than an MCU *and* a PAL/GAL!  Just condition the outputs (pullups/do=
wns/inverters/buffers) so the MCU's outputs can't sit in an unhappy state i=
f the MCU refuses to start up.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The micro needs to be in two different places. So, it's either micro + mi=
cro=20
> or micro + gal/pal.

all just to make it more complicated and save a few wires?

>=20
>=20
>=20
> > Bring the smarts *into* the field instead of dealing with cables, etc. =
 (what happens if the cable is unplugged?)
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Then no signal, and the motor would be free running, or stop eventually.

a BLDC doesn't free run if you stop commutating it catches fire

-Lasse

On 2014-09-20, edward.ming.lee@gmail.com <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Actually, this is too unstable.  The FSM would work if it's already in one of the 6 states, out of 64.  But if it's not, it won't drop in.  I am switching to decoding a 3 bits Johnson counter:

>> > Q0 := Q1
>> > Q1 := Q2
>> > Q2 := /Q0  

>> I know it is a test book nit, but guard against 010/101 states.
>
> It should transition to a valid state within one or two clock pulses.

Ideally should, as desctibed above, does not..

As long as the outputs are zero during the invalid states, we are OK.

Yes, "no drive" is better than "a fire",

-- 
umop apisdn


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

On 2014-09-20, edward.ming.lee@gmail.com <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, September 20, 2014 7:25:30 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>> Den l&oslash;rdag den 20. september 2014 16.01.58 UTC+2 skrev edward....@gmail.com:
>> 
>
> We drive the Johnson FSM with variable frequency pulses and output:
>
> ;   Johnson         AHI ALO BHI BLO CHI CLO
> ;  0   0   0         0   0   1   0   0   1
> ;  1   0   0         1   0   0   0   0   1
> ;  1   1   0         1   0   0   1   0   0
> ;  1   1   1         0   0   0   1   1   0
> ;  0   1   1         0   1   0   0   1   0
> ;  0   0   1         0   1   1   0   0   0
>
> The driving frequency is 3x the RPM cycle.

word salad.

the counter clock frequency is 6 times the rotational
frequency, 

Or in drive frequency in Hertz is 360 time the 
spindle speed in RPM
 
-- 
umop apisdn


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---