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Vaccum capacitor failure oddness.

Started by Maynard A. Philbrook Jr. May 22, 2014
 	While analyzing a problem with a small (150Kwatt oscillator) 
circuit, we discovered a faulty 200 pf 30VK vacuum cap.

  This was found via a series of HI-POT testing, starting with the
filament transformer (250 amps) which acts as the tube heater and 
tap for the cathode (-) voltage ( the + is grounded in this circuit)

  First intentions were to determine if the transformer had a leaky 
problem due to higher than normal current in the tube and also to 
determine reasons why the resistor string for the High voltage return
was getting annihilated at random times.

  Any way, it appears that the Oscillator has been injected very high
levels of sporadic bias on the grid, causing the circuit to generate
excessive voltages but in narrow duty cycles. short enough to where the
digital monitors and filtering of the circuit would null the effect but 
still at the resistors of course, hammering them.

 It took a few times to determine this random effect.

  It seems while you are hi-poting this capacitor and trying to find 
where the discharge is coming from, it heals itself and you can then put 
the full 30KV to it however, let it sit around and it goes back to 
breaking down starting at around 4Kv and slowly working it's way back to
full level again as you do the retries with the HI_POT unit.
  
  We also notice this, the cap is behaving like a polarized neon bulb, 
in other words, it appears like there is ionized gas discharging 
randomly and the short isn't a low ohm short, it maybe no more than a 
1mA but it's enough to inject noise onto the grid of the tube. Also when 
I say polarized, I mean if I switch the polarity in the test it then 
seems to work, but that isn't how it's used in the circuit of course..

 This cap is part of a parasitic circuit for the grid and has a resistor
in series with it to the - side of the supply.

 Another note I took is that if you look at the copper tube plates 
inside the glass they look like the surface of the moon and the envelope 
at the ends also looks like some deposits maybe collecting on them 
inside (white powderish)

 This cap has been living in this circuit for many YEARS (like 35 or 
more)
 
  Is it possible the cap has gotten gassy from vaporization from arcs
due to other failures over the years and now contains unwanted 
properties inside?

 I remember replacing some vacuum caps in an amp I had years ago only 
because it seemed like people were hearing small popping noises in my 
signal, it was the caps breaking down but they were not actually doing 
anything visual damaging, does sort of sound like the same thing here.

Jamie
"Maynard A. Philbrook Jr." <jamie_ka1lpa@charter.net> wrote in message 
news:MPG.2de85d797c231b6a9898ee@news.eternal-september.org...
> Another note I took is that if you look at the copper tube plates > inside the glass they look like the surface of the moon and the envelope > at the ends also looks like some deposits maybe collecting on them > inside (white powderish)
Cratering = not just avalanche but subsequent heavy sputtering at the breakdown site. Which gives a big breakdown current and voltage change and stuff. Presumably there's a getter in there to maintain the vacuum. The white stuff was supposed to be your first clue something was dead...
> Is it possible the cap has gotten gassy from vaporization from arcs > due to other failures over the years and now contains unwanted > properties inside?
It's full of air, or enough gas to do that, or whatever. Replace it. If you have to ask the price, you don't want to know. :) Tim -- Seven Transistor Labs Electrical Engineering Consultation Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
On a sunny day (Thu, 22 May 2014 20:16:50 -0400) it happened "Maynard A.
Philbrook Jr." <jamie_ka1lpa@charter.net> wrote in
<MPG.2de85d797c231b6a9898ee@news.eternal-september.org>:

> Is it possible the cap has gotten gassy from vaporization from arcs >due to other failures over the years and now contains unwanted >properties inside?
Yes.
Maynard A. Philbrook Jr. <jamie_ka1lpa@charter.net> wrote:
> > While analyzing a problem with a small (150Kwatt oscillator) > circuit, we discovered a faulty 200 pf 30VK vacuum cap. > > This was found via a series of HI-POT testing, starting with the > filament transformer (250 amps) which acts as the tube heater and > tap for the cathode (-) voltage ( the + is grounded in this circuit) > > First intentions were to determine if the transformer had a leaky > problem due to higher than normal current in the tube and also to > determine reasons why the resistor string for the High voltage return > was getting annihilated at random times. > > Any way, it appears that the Oscillator has been injected very high > levels of sporadic bias on the grid, causing the circuit to generate > excessive voltages but in narrow duty cycles. short enough to where the > digital monitors and filtering of the circuit would null the effect but > still at the resistors of course, hammering them. > > It took a few times to determine this random effect. > > It seems while you are hi-poting this capacitor and trying to find > where the discharge is coming from, it heals itself and you can then put > the full 30KV to it however, let it sit around and it goes back to > breaking down starting at around 4Kv and slowly working it's way back to > full level again as you do the retries with the HI_POT unit. > > We also notice this, the cap is behaving like a polarized neon bulb, > in other words, it appears like there is ionized gas discharging > randomly and the short isn't a low ohm short, it maybe no more than a > 1mA but it's enough to inject noise onto the grid of the tube. Also when > I say polarized, I mean if I switch the polarity in the test it then > seems to work, but that isn't how it's used in the circuit of course.. > > This cap is part of a parasitic circuit for the grid and has a resistor > in series with it to the - side of the supply. > > Another note I took is that if you look at the copper tube plates > inside the glass they look like the surface of the moon and the envelope > at the ends also looks like some deposits maybe collecting on them > inside (white powderish) > > This cap has been living in this circuit for many YEARS (like 35 or > more) > > Is it possible the cap has gotten gassy from vaporization from arcs > due to other failures over the years and now contains unwanted > properties inside?
it could just have a leak, which explains the neon tube behavior and possible oxide/ white stuff issues. wrap it in a bag, smack with a hammer and then you have replace it.
In article <llm8fb$9p6$1@dont-email.me>, tmoranwms@charter.net says...
> > "Maynard A. Philbrook Jr." <jamie_ka1lpa@charter.net> wrote in message > news:MPG.2de85d797c231b6a9898ee@news.eternal-september.org... > > Another note I took is that if you look at the copper tube plates > > inside the glass they look like the surface of the moon and the envelope > > at the ends also looks like some deposits maybe collecting on them > > inside (white powderish) > > Cratering = not just avalanche but subsequent heavy sputtering at the > breakdown site. Which gives a big breakdown current and voltage change > and stuff. > > Presumably there's a getter in there to maintain the vacuum. The white > stuff was supposed to be your first clue something was dead... > > > Is it possible the cap has gotten gassy from vaporization from arcs > > due to other failures over the years and now contains unwanted > > properties inside? > > It's full of air, or enough gas to do that, or whatever. Replace it. If > you have to ask the price, you don't want to know. :) > > Tim
We found a used ceramic type lying around the shop for the time being. We have two that should be received tomorrow at $500 each. Thanks. Jamie