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Dimensionally Plotted Field with XY Coils

Started by Unknown November 24, 2013
This is a mad scientist project, and I am not even sure how to ask the
question correctly.

What I have in mind is to create a zone of "EM texture" using two
solenoid coils at right angle to each other. These are not crossed but
effectively form two sides (or a corner) of a square.

The concept is to feed them with different arbitrary signals, such
that the composite perpendicular field contains irregularities encoded
by the intersecting waveshapes that would over a period of time trace
a geometric shape.

I suppose an analogy would be a PCB etching machine.

Has anyone seen this utilized in existing technology, if it is
feasible at all?

Mark Henderson

On Monday, 25 November 2013 13:46:49 UTC+11, mhend...@unitrans.com  wrote:
> This is a mad scientist project, and I am not even sure how to ask the question correctly. > > What I have in mind is to create a zone of "EM texture" using two solenoid coils at right angle to each other. These are not crossed but effectively form two sides (or a corner) of a square. > > The concept is to feed them with different arbitrary signals, such
that the composite perpendicular field contains irregularities encoded by the intersecting waveshapes that would over a period of time trace a geometric shape.
> > I suppose an analogy would be a PCB etching machine. Has anyone seen this utilized in existing technology, if it is feasible at all?
The arrangement of coils is reminiscent of the x/y scan coils which direct the scanned electron beam in a TV tube or an electron microscope. These are usually wound as saddle coils. Google finds plenty of references to saddle coils, but few have useful images. This paper doesn't present anything all that visually useful, but the line drawings in Figure 2 show how they work. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
On Monday, 25 November 2013 14:23:16 UTC+11, Bill Sloman  wrote:
> On Monday, 25 November 2013 13:46:49 UTC+11, mhend...@unitrans.com wrote=
:
> > This is a mad scientist project, and I am not even sure how to ask the =
question correctly.=20
> > =20 > > What I have in mind is to create a zone of "EM texture" using two sole=
noid coils at right angle to each other. These are not crossed but effectiv= ely form two sides (or a corner) of a square.=20
> > =20 > > The concept is to feed them with different arbitrary signals, such that=
the composite perpendicular field contains irregularities encoded by the i= ntersecting waveshapes that would over a period of time trace a geometric s= hape.=20
> >=20 > > I suppose an analogy would be a PCB etching machine. Has anyone seen th=
is utilized in existing technology, if it is feasible at all? =20
>=20 > The arrangement of coils is reminiscent of the x/y scan coils which direc=
t the scanned electron beam in a TV tube or an electron microscope.
> =20 > These are usually wound as overlapped pairs of saddle coils. Google finds=
plenty of references to saddle coils, but few have useful images. This pap= er doesn't present anything all that visually useful, but the line drawings= in Figure 2 show how they work. http://www.austms.org.au/Publ/Jamsb/V43P3/pdf/1732.pdf Oops. --=20 Bill Sloman, Sydney
I don't even... sounds rather loopy??  You want to, in essence, somehow 
form an image in the E&M field?  Standing waves perhaps?  Or just E or M? 
Supposing you had some method to visualize the field intensity in space, 
you'd like to create an arbitrary image to some finite resolution?

If the resolution limit is comparable to PCB etchings, you'll need 
submilimeter waves (>100GHz).  Right now, transmitters, modulators and 
resonators (let alone any kind of sensor to visualize the result, for 
which without... how would you know?) don't work well at those 
frequencies, so it will be quite an engineering task.

It's fun to envision scenarios with fields and lasers and cackling 
maniacal laughter, but until you can answer yourself the question: "what 
does it DO?", it's just a lot of hallucinations..

Tim

-- 
Seven Transistor Labs
Electrical Engineering Consultation
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com

<mhenderson@unitrans.com> wrote in message 
news:1kd599hup8dvrep66aq2vmeeor2eo9nrcf@4ax.com...
> > This is a mad scientist project, and I am not even sure how to ask the > question correctly. > > What I have in mind is to create a zone of "EM texture" using two > solenoid coils at right angle to each other. These are not crossed but > effectively form two sides (or a corner) of a square. > > The concept is to feed them with different arbitrary signals, such > that the composite perpendicular field contains irregularities encoded > by the intersecting waveshapes that would over a period of time trace > a geometric shape. > > I suppose an analogy would be a PCB etching machine. > > Has anyone seen this utilized in existing technology, if it is > feasible at all? > > Mark Henderson >
On Sun, 24 Nov 2013 22:55:59 -0600, "Tim Williams"
<tmoranwms@charter.net> wrote:

>I don't even... sounds rather loopy?? You want to, in essence, somehow >form an image in the E&M field? Standing waves perhaps? Or just E or M? >Supposing you had some method to visualize the field intensity in space, >you'd like to create an arbitrary image to some finite resolution? >
You would know it couldn't be a standing wave if you read my OP regarding the position of the _XY_ coils.
>If the resolution limit is comparable to PCB etchings, you'll need >submilimeter waves (>100GHz). Right now, transmitters, modulators and >resonators (let alone any kind of sensor to visualize the result, for >which without... how would you know?) don't work well at those >frequencies, so it will be quite an engineering task. >
That was an analogy. I did not actually specify this degree of resolution. It can be quite low. Just enough to define basic 2D geometric shapes.
>It's fun to envision scenarios with fields and lasers and cackling >maniacal laughter, but until you can answer yourself the question: "what >does it DO?", it's just a lot of hallucinations. >
Yes, want I want is an electromagnetic hallucination. Well put. Any practical ideas? Anyone? Mark Henderson
Could a fully controllable electromagnetic
field move a tiny ball bearing around
in a 3D space like that if the coils
are oriented right and currents are
so programmed?
 
It could be a curiosity, a mixer,
perhaps it could enhance one of those
3D plastic "printing" makerbot things?
 
On a huge scale it could be handy
for rolling out fibers of glass or
carbon in polyester resin.
 
Competing field strengths in each axis
could give the operator full control.
 
It could be fun to play with.
 
On a sunny day (Mon, 25 Nov 2013 02:07:12 -0800 (PST)) it happened Greegor
<greegor47@gmail.com> wrote in
<cc996cbe-43b5-4ba7-9d02-1c0fdd259cfd@googlegroups.com>:

>Could a fully controllable electromagnetic >field move a tiny ball bearing around >in a 3D space like that if the coils >are oriented right and currents are >so programmed?
Yes, with feedback of position I'd think: http://www.kurzweilai.net/mit-creates-amazing-ui-from-levitating-orbs
On Sunday, November 24, 2013 9:46:49 PM UTC-5, mhend...@unitrans.com wrote:
> This is a mad scientist project, and I am not even sure how to ask the > question correctly.
Ahh let's just use the 'mad' part and skip scientist until you've done a bunch more research.. or taken some basic Physics/ E&M classes. (Sorry to be so snarky, but I don't think you know what you are talking about.) You might try something like this, which is not E&M, but does make nice 'textures' that you can see. (chladni patterns on a square plate) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wmFAwqQB0g George H.
> > > > What I have in mind is to create a zone of "EM texture" using two > > solenoid coils at right angle to each other. These are not crossed but > > effectively form two sides (or a corner) of a square. > > > > The concept is to feed them with different arbitrary signals, such > > that the composite perpendicular field contains irregularities encoded > > by the intersecting waveshapes that would over a period of time trace > > a geometric shape. > > > > I suppose an analogy would be a PCB etching machine. > > > > Has anyone seen this utilized in existing technology, if it is > > feasible at all? > > > > Mark Henderson
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 13:46:49 +1100, mhenderson@unitrans.com wrote:

> >This is a mad scientist project, and I am not even sure how to ask the >question correctly. > >What I have in mind is to create a zone of "EM texture" using two >solenoid coils at right angle to each other. These are not crossed but >effectively form two sides (or a corner) of a square. > >The concept is to feed them with different arbitrary signals, such >that the composite perpendicular field contains irregularities encoded >by the intersecting waveshapes that would over a period of time trace >a geometric shape. > >I suppose an analogy would be a PCB etching machine. > >Has anyone seen this utilized in existing technology, if it is >feasible at all? > >Mark Henderson
Ok, I don't think this is doing what you think it would do. Look at single coil. You apply current, and a magnetic field is created, moving in three dimensions at the speed of light. If you are varying this field, then there are are 'waves' of varying magnetic intensity moving in a roughly spherical wavefront from this coil. Now, you add in a second coil, set at a distance. You vary its current as well. You know have spherical wavefronts of varying magnetic intensity flowing out from it. The two wavefronts will interact giving magnetic vectors that change in three dimensions. There will be no standing waves or static images. Standing waves require reflections, which magnetic fields don't do. You might be able to accomplish something if you used an array of coils, but then, that would still require you to be trying to actually DO something... I won't even go into the joys of trying to change the field intensity of a coil rapidly...