Forums

Need the topology for a current to current SMPS, not voltage to voltage SMPS

Started by RobertMacy October 16, 2013
krw@attt.bizz wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Oct 2013 07:21:15 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> > wrote: > >> krw@attt.bizz wrote: >>> On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 16:36:45 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> John Larkin wrote: >>>>> On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 15:28:13 -0500, John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 10/19/2013 3:11 PM, Joerg wrote: >>>>>>> John S wrote: >>>>>>>> On 10/19/2013 1:41 PM, Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>> John S wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 10/19/2013 10:03 AM, Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> John S wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/19/2013 2:26 AM, Jasen Betts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2013-10-17, RobertMacy <robert.a.macy@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 06:01:01 -0700, George Herold >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <gherold@teachspin.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...snip... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK... We haven't done many AC circuit yet.. but I'm guessing the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sort of thing can be done. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For completeness here's the way a current source buck-boost should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/eey79dkci1sqpp0/DSCF0034.JPG >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (I figured out in the shower that the capacitor was in wrong.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George H. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks again for the images, surprisingly this time dropbox let me >>>>>>>>>>>>>> view >>>>>>>>>>>>>> them - usually doesn't. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> IN: AC with source current maybe 30-50mA, compliance to 1kV >>>>>>>>>>>>>> OUT: approx 5Vdc, with variable current, adjusted with time envelope >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0.8A down to 50uA. >>>>>>>>>>>>> current buck-boost converter. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> +--+-FET--+--|<------- >>>>>>>>>>>>> | | >>>>>>>>>>>>> === 3|| >>>>>>>>>>>>> | 3|| >>>>>>>>>>>>> | | >>>>>>>>>>>>> +--+------+----------- >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the more time the switch (FET in the diagram) >>>>>>>>>>>>> spends off the larger the current output >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand how you can get more current out of the inductor >>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>> it had when the switch opened. >>>>>>>>>>> Ask a politician, they can do that :-) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So, I should have studied politics rather than engineering. I guess >>>>>>>>>> Momma was right. >>>>>>>>> If you and I had done that we'd be rich. But probably not too happy. If >>>>>>>>> I were 18 again I'd veer towards a brewmaster's degree and keep EE as a >>>>>>>>> hobby. No kidding. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It very hard to resist your true calling, I learned. >>>>>>> The problem is to figure out what your true calling is. Some people >>>>>>> realize that late in life. For example, a top chemical scientist in our >>>>>>> area who some day when he was well in his 50's quit his well-paying job >>>>>>> at Monsanto and started a winery. He said he'd found his true calling. >>>>>>> Or a sccessful surgeon who, late in his 50's, became a pilot (after an >>>>>>> expensive trek through commercial pilot flight schooling) and hired on >>>>>>> with an airline. His income probably went down by 10-15dB but he was happy. >>>>>>> >>>>>> Of course, Joerg. Not everyone has a calling at birth, graduation, or >>>>>> any other special time in his life. However, when it comes, it is very >>>>>> hard to resist. If you are enjoying your calling, how much happier can >>>>>> you be? (Let's not get into salary) >>>>> I'm confused. Why would anyone want to do anything but design >>>>> electronics? >>>>> >>>> <raises hand> >>>> >>>> I'd like to get into beer brewing some day. When I did that last time as >>>> a student in Germany I almost had more fun that when designing >>>> electronics (which I did a lot while studying for my masters). Nowadays, >>>> after designing the umpteenth switch mode converter that can get a bit >>>> old. It's only fun if there is something in the mix where people have >>>> said "it can't be done". That's when my fun level meter goes to 120%. >>> I can imagine that brewing the billionth barrel of beer wouldn't be as >>> much fun as the first, either. Perhaps you have the hobby and >>> business right, after all. >> >> Hobby brewers and even the small commercial micro brewers don't run a >> bland same old same old scheme. They come up with variants and try out >> new recipes all the time. Like the chef in a fancy restaurant that is >> not tied to a chain, I was told by several that such a job never gets >> old. It's just hard not to gain weight (same with brewing). > > I think the same can be said for design engineers. I rarely design > complicated systems with unit logic anymore. ;-)
That's because you work on gear that isn't really mass production oriented. I work for numerous clients who are all in very different markets. This keeps our jobs interesting. But after talking to automotive designers I'd be bored stiff if I had to do their job for more than a year. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
On Sun, 20 Oct 2013 09:33:54 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>krw@attt.bizz wrote: >> On Sun, 20 Oct 2013 07:21:15 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> krw@attt.bizz wrote: >>>> On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 16:36:45 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> John Larkin wrote: >>>>>> On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 15:28:13 -0500, John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 10/19/2013 3:11 PM, Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>> John S wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 10/19/2013 1:41 PM, Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>> John S wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 10/19/2013 10:03 AM, Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> John S wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/19/2013 2:26 AM, Jasen Betts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2013-10-17, RobertMacy <robert.a.macy@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 06:01:01 -0700, George Herold >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <gherold@teachspin.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...snip... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK... We haven't done many AC circuit yet.. but I'm guessing the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sort of thing can be done. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For completeness here's the way a current source buck-boost should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/eey79dkci1sqpp0/DSCF0034.JPG >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (I figured out in the shower that the capacitor was in wrong.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George H. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks again for the images, surprisingly this time dropbox let me >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> view >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them - usually doesn't. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IN: AC with source current maybe 30-50mA, compliance to 1kV >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OUT: approx 5Vdc, with variable current, adjusted with time envelope >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0.8A down to 50uA. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> current buck-boost converter. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> +--+-FET--+--|<------- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> | | >>>>>>>>>>>>>> === 3|| >>>>>>>>>>>>>> | 3|| >>>>>>>>>>>>>> | | >>>>>>>>>>>>>> +--+------+----------- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the more time the switch (FET in the diagram) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> spends off the larger the current output >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand how you can get more current out of the inductor >>>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>>> it had when the switch opened. >>>>>>>>>>>> Ask a politician, they can do that :-) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> So, I should have studied politics rather than engineering. I guess >>>>>>>>>>> Momma was right. >>>>>>>>>> If you and I had done that we'd be rich. But probably not too happy. If >>>>>>>>>> I were 18 again I'd veer towards a brewmaster's degree and keep EE as a >>>>>>>>>> hobby. No kidding. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It very hard to resist your true calling, I learned. >>>>>>>> The problem is to figure out what your true calling is. Some people >>>>>>>> realize that late in life. For example, a top chemical scientist in our >>>>>>>> area who some day when he was well in his 50's quit his well-paying job >>>>>>>> at Monsanto and started a winery. He said he'd found his true calling. >>>>>>>> Or a sccessful surgeon who, late in his 50's, became a pilot (after an >>>>>>>> expensive trek through commercial pilot flight schooling) and hired on >>>>>>>> with an airline. His income probably went down by 10-15dB but he was happy. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course, Joerg. Not everyone has a calling at birth, graduation, or >>>>>>> any other special time in his life. However, when it comes, it is very >>>>>>> hard to resist. If you are enjoying your calling, how much happier can >>>>>>> you be? (Let's not get into salary) >>>>>> I'm confused. Why would anyone want to do anything but design >>>>>> electronics? >>>>>> >>>>> <raises hand> >>>>> >>>>> I'd like to get into beer brewing some day. When I did that last time as >>>>> a student in Germany I almost had more fun that when designing >>>>> electronics (which I did a lot while studying for my masters). Nowadays, >>>>> after designing the umpteenth switch mode converter that can get a bit >>>>> old. It's only fun if there is something in the mix where people have >>>>> said "it can't be done". That's when my fun level meter goes to 120%. >>>> I can imagine that brewing the billionth barrel of beer wouldn't be as >>>> much fun as the first, either. Perhaps you have the hobby and >>>> business right, after all. >>> >>> Hobby brewers and even the small commercial micro brewers don't run a >>> bland same old same old scheme. They come up with variants and try out >>> new recipes all the time. Like the chef in a fancy restaurant that is >>> not tied to a chain, I was told by several that such a job never gets >>> old. It's just hard not to gain weight (same with brewing). >> >> I think the same can be said for design engineers. I rarely design >> complicated systems with unit logic anymore. ;-) > > >That's because you work on gear that isn't really mass production >oriented. I work for numerous clients who are all in very different >markets. This keeps our jobs interesting. But after talking to >automotive designers I'd be bored stiff if I had to do their job for >more than a year.
Joerg, You're always pinching pennies in your designs. In automotive designs you're pinching _tenths_ of cents... which can really tax your imagination on how to get a job done. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
On Sun, 20 Oct 2013 09:33:54 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>krw@attt.bizz wrote: >> On Sun, 20 Oct 2013 07:21:15 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> krw@attt.bizz wrote: >>>> On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 16:36:45 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> John Larkin wrote: >>>>>> On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 15:28:13 -0500, John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 10/19/2013 3:11 PM, Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>> John S wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 10/19/2013 1:41 PM, Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>> John S wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 10/19/2013 10:03 AM, Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> John S wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/19/2013 2:26 AM, Jasen Betts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2013-10-17, RobertMacy <robert.a.macy@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 06:01:01 -0700, George Herold >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <gherold@teachspin.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...snip... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK... We haven't done many AC circuit yet.. but I'm guessing the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sort of thing can be done. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For completeness here's the way a current source buck-boost should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/eey79dkci1sqpp0/DSCF0034.JPG >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (I figured out in the shower that the capacitor was in wrong.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George H. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks again for the images, surprisingly this time dropbox let me >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> view >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them - usually doesn't. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IN: AC with source current maybe 30-50mA, compliance to 1kV >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OUT: approx 5Vdc, with variable current, adjusted with time envelope >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0.8A down to 50uA. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> current buck-boost converter. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> +--+-FET--+--|<------- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> | | >>>>>>>>>>>>>> === 3|| >>>>>>>>>>>>>> | 3|| >>>>>>>>>>>>>> | | >>>>>>>>>>>>>> +--+------+----------- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the more time the switch (FET in the diagram) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> spends off the larger the current output >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand how you can get more current out of the inductor >>>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>>> it had when the switch opened. >>>>>>>>>>>> Ask a politician, they can do that :-) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> So, I should have studied politics rather than engineering. I guess >>>>>>>>>>> Momma was right. >>>>>>>>>> If you and I had done that we'd be rich. But probably not too happy. If >>>>>>>>>> I were 18 again I'd veer towards a brewmaster's degree and keep EE as a >>>>>>>>>> hobby. No kidding. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It very hard to resist your true calling, I learned. >>>>>>>> The problem is to figure out what your true calling is. Some people >>>>>>>> realize that late in life. For example, a top chemical scientist in our >>>>>>>> area who some day when he was well in his 50's quit his well-paying job >>>>>>>> at Monsanto and started a winery. He said he'd found his true calling. >>>>>>>> Or a sccessful surgeon who, late in his 50's, became a pilot (after an >>>>>>>> expensive trek through commercial pilot flight schooling) and hired on >>>>>>>> with an airline. His income probably went down by 10-15dB but he was happy. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course, Joerg. Not everyone has a calling at birth, graduation, or >>>>>>> any other special time in his life. However, when it comes, it is very >>>>>>> hard to resist. If you are enjoying your calling, how much happier can >>>>>>> you be? (Let's not get into salary) >>>>>> I'm confused. Why would anyone want to do anything but design >>>>>> electronics? >>>>>> >>>>> <raises hand> >>>>> >>>>> I'd like to get into beer brewing some day. When I did that last time as >>>>> a student in Germany I almost had more fun that when designing >>>>> electronics (which I did a lot while studying for my masters). Nowadays, >>>>> after designing the umpteenth switch mode converter that can get a bit >>>>> old. It's only fun if there is something in the mix where people have >>>>> said "it can't be done". That's when my fun level meter goes to 120%. >>>> I can imagine that brewing the billionth barrel of beer wouldn't be as >>>> much fun as the first, either. Perhaps you have the hobby and >>>> business right, after all. >>> >>> Hobby brewers and even the small commercial micro brewers don't run a >>> bland same old same old scheme. They come up with variants and try out >>> new recipes all the time. Like the chef in a fancy restaurant that is >>> not tied to a chain, I was told by several that such a job never gets >>> old. It's just hard not to gain weight (same with brewing). >> >> I think the same can be said for design engineers. I rarely design >> complicated systems with unit logic anymore. ;-) > > >That's because you work on gear that isn't really mass production >oriented.
Really? A couple of million units a year isn't mass production?
>I work for numerous clients who are all in very different >markets. This keeps our jobs interesting. But after talking to >automotive designers I'd be bored stiff if I had to do their job for >more than a year.
Perhaps but I think you have a pretty small view of that world. However, I've been involved in many different markets at many different levels, over the years. It's a *big* field. There is no reason to do the same thing for forty years. Impossible, actually.
On 10/19/2013 6:36 PM, Joerg wrote:
> John Larkin wrote: >> On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 15:28:13 -0500, John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> >> wrote: >> >>> On 10/19/2013 3:11 PM, Joerg wrote: >>>> John S wrote: >>>>> On 10/19/2013 1:41 PM, Joerg wrote: >>>>>> John S wrote: >>>>>>> On 10/19/2013 10:03 AM, Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>> John S wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 10/19/2013 2:26 AM, Jasen Betts wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 2013-10-17, RobertMacy <robert.a.macy@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 06:01:01 -0700, George Herold >>>>>>>>>>> <gherold@teachspin.com> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ...snip... >>>>>>>>>>>> OK... We haven't done many AC circuit yet.. but I'm guessing the >>>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>>> sort of thing can be done. >>>>>>>>>>>> For completeness here's the way a current source buck-boost should >>>>>>>>>>>> look. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/eey79dkci1sqpp0/DSCF0034.JPG >>>>>>>>>>>> (I figured out in the shower that the capacitor was in wrong.) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> George H. >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks again for the images, surprisingly this time dropbox let me >>>>>>>>>>> view >>>>>>>>>>> them - usually doesn't. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> IN: AC with source current maybe 30-50mA, compliance to 1kV >>>>>>>>>>> OUT: approx 5Vdc, with variable current, adjusted with time envelope >>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>> 0.8A down to 50uA. >>>>>>>>>> current buck-boost converter. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> +--+-FET--+--|<------- >>>>>>>>>> | | >>>>>>>>>> === 3|| >>>>>>>>>> | 3|| >>>>>>>>>> | | >>>>>>>>>> +--+------+----------- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the more time the switch (FET in the diagram) >>>>>>>>>> spends off the larger the current output >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I don't understand how you can get more current out of the inductor >>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>> it had when the switch opened. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ask a politician, they can do that :-) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, I should have studied politics rather than engineering. I guess >>>>>>> Momma was right. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you and I had done that we'd be rich. But probably not too happy. If >>>>>> I were 18 again I'd veer towards a brewmaster's degree and keep EE as a >>>>>> hobby. No kidding. >>>>>> >>>>> It very hard to resist your true calling, I learned. >>>> >>>> The problem is to figure out what your true calling is. Some people >>>> realize that late in life. For example, a top chemical scientist in our >>>> area who some day when he was well in his 50's quit his well-paying job >>>> at Monsanto and started a winery. He said he'd found his true calling. >>>> Or a sccessful surgeon who, late in his 50's, became a pilot (after an >>>> expensive trek through commercial pilot flight schooling) and hired on >>>> with an airline. His income probably went down by 10-15dB but he was happy. >>>> >>> Of course, Joerg. Not everyone has a calling at birth, graduation, or >>> any other special time in his life. However, when it comes, it is very >>> hard to resist. If you are enjoying your calling, how much happier can >>> you be? (Let's not get into salary) >> >> I'm confused. Why would anyone want to do anything but design >> electronics? >> > > <raises hand> > > I'd like to get into beer brewing some day. When I did that last time as > a student in Germany I almost had more fun that when designing > electronics (which I did a lot while studying for my masters). Nowadays, > after designing the umpteenth switch mode converter that can get a bit > old. It's only fun if there is something in the mix where people have > said "it can't be done". That's when my fun level meter goes to 120%. >
I dunno, Joerg. Isn't brewing sort of like watching paint dry? My desire is that you poke something and can get an almost immediate response. I obviously don't have your patience. Which is also my shortcoming.
Jim Thompson wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Oct 2013 09:33:54 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> > wrote: > >> krw@attt.bizz wrote:
[...]
>>> I think the same can be said for design engineers. I rarely design >>> complicated systems with unit logic anymore. ;-) >> >> That's because you work on gear that isn't really mass production >> oriented. I work for numerous clients who are all in very different >> markets. This keeps our jobs interesting. But after talking to >> automotive designers I'd be bored stiff if I had to do their job for >> more than a year. > > Joerg, You're always pinching pennies in your designs. > > In automotive designs you're pinching _tenths_ of cents... which can > really tax your imagination on how to get a job done. >
I've done that kind of job as well. Where we had to ease resistor tolerance to 10% and for some to 20% (non-trimmed). Can be fun but it does get old. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
krw@attt.bizz wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Oct 2013 09:33:54 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> > wrote: > >> krw@attt.bizz wrote: >>> On Sun, 20 Oct 2013 07:21:15 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> krw@attt.bizz wrote: >>>>> On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 16:36:45 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> John Larkin wrote: >>>>>>> On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 15:28:13 -0500, John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 10/19/2013 3:11 PM, Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>> John S wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 10/19/2013 1:41 PM, Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> John S wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/19/2013 10:03 AM, Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> John S wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/19/2013 2:26 AM, Jasen Betts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2013-10-17, RobertMacy <robert.a.macy@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 06:01:01 -0700, George Herold >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <gherold@teachspin.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...snip... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK... We haven't done many AC circuit yet.. but I'm guessing the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sort of thing can be done. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For completeness here's the way a current source buck-boost should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/eey79dkci1sqpp0/DSCF0034.JPG >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (I figured out in the shower that the capacitor was in wrong.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George H. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks again for the images, surprisingly this time dropbox let me >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> view >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them - usually doesn't. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IN: AC with source current maybe 30-50mA, compliance to 1kV >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OUT: approx 5Vdc, with variable current, adjusted with time envelope >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0.8A down to 50uA. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current buck-boost converter. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +--+-FET--+--|<------- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> | | >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> === 3|| >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> | 3|| >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> | | >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +--+------+----------- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the more time the switch (FET in the diagram) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spends off the larger the current output >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand how you can get more current out of the inductor >>>>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it had when the switch opened. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ask a politician, they can do that :-) >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> So, I should have studied politics rather than engineering. I guess >>>>>>>>>>>> Momma was right. >>>>>>>>>>> If you and I had done that we'd be rich. But probably not too happy. If >>>>>>>>>>> I were 18 again I'd veer towards a brewmaster's degree and keep EE as a >>>>>>>>>>> hobby. No kidding. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It very hard to resist your true calling, I learned. >>>>>>>>> The problem is to figure out what your true calling is. Some people >>>>>>>>> realize that late in life. For example, a top chemical scientist in our >>>>>>>>> area who some day when he was well in his 50's quit his well-paying job >>>>>>>>> at Monsanto and started a winery. He said he'd found his true calling. >>>>>>>>> Or a sccessful surgeon who, late in his 50's, became a pilot (after an >>>>>>>>> expensive trek through commercial pilot flight schooling) and hired on >>>>>>>>> with an airline. His income probably went down by 10-15dB but he was happy. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Of course, Joerg. Not everyone has a calling at birth, graduation, or >>>>>>>> any other special time in his life. However, when it comes, it is very >>>>>>>> hard to resist. If you are enjoying your calling, how much happier can >>>>>>>> you be? (Let's not get into salary) >>>>>>> I'm confused. Why would anyone want to do anything but design >>>>>>> electronics? >>>>>>> >>>>>> <raises hand> >>>>>> >>>>>> I'd like to get into beer brewing some day. When I did that last time as >>>>>> a student in Germany I almost had more fun that when designing >>>>>> electronics (which I did a lot while studying for my masters). Nowadays, >>>>>> after designing the umpteenth switch mode converter that can get a bit >>>>>> old. It's only fun if there is something in the mix where people have >>>>>> said "it can't be done". That's when my fun level meter goes to 120%. >>>>> I can imagine that brewing the billionth barrel of beer wouldn't be as >>>>> much fun as the first, either. Perhaps you have the hobby and >>>>> business right, after all. >>>> Hobby brewers and even the small commercial micro brewers don't run a >>>> bland same old same old scheme. They come up with variants and try out >>>> new recipes all the time. Like the chef in a fancy restaurant that is >>>> not tied to a chain, I was told by several that such a job never gets >>>> old. It's just hard not to gain weight (same with brewing). >>> I think the same can be said for design engineers. I rarely design >>> complicated systems with unit logic anymore. ;-) >> >> That's because you work on gear that isn't really mass production >> oriented. > > Really? A couple of million units a year isn't mass production? >
Oops, I probably mixed you up with someone else. I thought it was stage electronics for rock bands and stuff.
>> I work for numerous clients who are all in very different >> markets. This keeps our jobs interesting. But after talking to >> automotive designers I'd be bored stiff if I had to do their job for >> more than a year. > > Perhaps but I think you have a pretty small view of that world.
Nope. Medical devices for hospitals, low cost medical devices for consumers (over-the-counter), aircraft electronics, spacecraft stuff, chemical pump controllers, power generation, oil/gas exploration electronics, NDT, commercial automotive (trucks), and so on.
> However, I've been involved in many different markets at many > different levels, over the years. It's a *big* field. There is no > reason to do the same thing for forty years. Impossible, actually. >
Not impossible. I met people who worked in one particular field such as engine control units for over 30 years. I'd have a hard time doing that, after being a consultant for this long. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
John S wrote:
> On 10/19/2013 6:36 PM, Joerg wrote:
[...]
>> I'd like to get into beer brewing some day. When I did that last time as >> a student in Germany I almost had more fun that when designing >> electronics (which I did a lot while studying for my masters). Nowadays, >> after designing the umpteenth switch mode converter that can get a bit >> old. It's only fun if there is something in the mix where people have >> said "it can't be done". That's when my fun level meter goes to 120%. >> > > I dunno, Joerg. Isn't brewing sort of like watching paint dry? My desire > is that you poke something and can get an almost immediate response. I > obviously don't have your patience. Which is also my shortcoming.
For brewing one must have patience. Occasionally stuff has to just sit there for a couple of weeks, your gear must be squeaky clean and sterilized, you can't cut corners. Else you might ruin a day's worth of work in minutes. When we brewed beer back in my university days we were rather busy for a whole day and then again when it was time to bottle. But we made sure there was a crate left over from last time and that none of us had to drive that evening. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
On 10/20/2013 2:56 PM, Joerg wrote:
> John S wrote: >> On 10/19/2013 6:36 PM, Joerg wrote: > > [...] > > >>> I'd like to get into beer brewing some day. When I did that last time as >>> a student in Germany I almost had more fun that when designing >>> electronics (which I did a lot while studying for my masters). Nowadays, >>> after designing the umpteenth switch mode converter that can get a bit >>> old. It's only fun if there is something in the mix where people have >>> said "it can't be done". That's when my fun level meter goes to 120%. >>> >> >> I dunno, Joerg. Isn't brewing sort of like watching paint dry? My desire >> is that you poke something and can get an almost immediate response. I >> obviously don't have your patience. Which is also my shortcoming. > > > For brewing one must have patience. Occasionally stuff has to just sit > there for a couple of weeks, your gear must be squeaky clean and > sterilized, you can't cut corners. Else you might ruin a day's worth of > work in minutes. When we brewed beer back in my university days we were > rather busy for a whole day and then again when it was time to bottle. > But we made sure there was a crate left over from last time and that > none of us had to drive that evening. >
Yeah, I know. But, I can't sit still for a day let alone a couple of weeks. I would die from boredom. I'm just not up to it. Others see it as a challenge. It is why we are so diverse. Thanks, Momma (Nature), for that.
On Sun, 20 Oct 2013 12:51:26 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>krw@attt.bizz wrote: >> On Sun, 20 Oct 2013 09:33:54 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> krw@attt.bizz wrote: >>>> On Sun, 20 Oct 2013 07:21:15 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> krw@attt.bizz wrote: >>>>>> On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 16:36:45 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> John Larkin wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 15:28:13 -0500, John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 10/19/2013 3:11 PM, Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>> John S wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 10/19/2013 1:41 PM, Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> John S wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/19/2013 10:03 AM, Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> John S wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/19/2013 2:26 AM, Jasen Betts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2013-10-17, RobertMacy <robert.a.macy@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 06:01:01 -0700, George Herold >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <gherold@teachspin.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...snip... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK... We haven't done many AC circuit yet.. but I'm guessing the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sort of thing can be done. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For completeness here's the way a current source buck-boost should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/eey79dkci1sqpp0/DSCF0034.JPG >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (I figured out in the shower that the capacitor was in wrong.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George H. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks again for the images, surprisingly this time dropbox let me >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> view >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them - usually doesn't. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IN: AC with source current maybe 30-50mA, compliance to 1kV >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OUT: approx 5Vdc, with variable current, adjusted with time envelope >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0.8A down to 50uA. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current buck-boost converter. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +--+-FET--+--|<------- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> | | >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> === 3|| >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> | 3|| >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> | | >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +--+------+----------- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the more time the switch (FET in the diagram) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spends off the larger the current output >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand how you can get more current out of the inductor >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it had when the switch opened. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ask a politician, they can do that :-) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So, I should have studied politics rather than engineering. I guess >>>>>>>>>>>>> Momma was right. >>>>>>>>>>>> If you and I had done that we'd be rich. But probably not too happy. If >>>>>>>>>>>> I were 18 again I'd veer towards a brewmaster's degree and keep EE as a >>>>>>>>>>>> hobby. No kidding. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It very hard to resist your true calling, I learned. >>>>>>>>>> The problem is to figure out what your true calling is. Some people >>>>>>>>>> realize that late in life. For example, a top chemical scientist in our >>>>>>>>>> area who some day when he was well in his 50's quit his well-paying job >>>>>>>>>> at Monsanto and started a winery. He said he'd found his true calling. >>>>>>>>>> Or a sccessful surgeon who, late in his 50's, became a pilot (after an >>>>>>>>>> expensive trek through commercial pilot flight schooling) and hired on >>>>>>>>>> with an airline. His income probably went down by 10-15dB but he was happy. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Of course, Joerg. Not everyone has a calling at birth, graduation, or >>>>>>>>> any other special time in his life. However, when it comes, it is very >>>>>>>>> hard to resist. If you are enjoying your calling, how much happier can >>>>>>>>> you be? (Let's not get into salary) >>>>>>>> I'm confused. Why would anyone want to do anything but design >>>>>>>> electronics? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> <raises hand> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'd like to get into beer brewing some day. When I did that last time as >>>>>>> a student in Germany I almost had more fun that when designing >>>>>>> electronics (which I did a lot while studying for my masters). Nowadays, >>>>>>> after designing the umpteenth switch mode converter that can get a bit >>>>>>> old. It's only fun if there is something in the mix where people have >>>>>>> said "it can't be done". That's when my fun level meter goes to 120%. >>>>>> I can imagine that brewing the billionth barrel of beer wouldn't be as >>>>>> much fun as the first, either. Perhaps you have the hobby and >>>>>> business right, after all. >>>>> Hobby brewers and even the small commercial micro brewers don't run a >>>>> bland same old same old scheme. They come up with variants and try out >>>>> new recipes all the time. Like the chef in a fancy restaurant that is >>>>> not tied to a chain, I was told by several that such a job never gets >>>>> old. It's just hard not to gain weight (same with brewing). >>>> I think the same can be said for design engineers. I rarely design >>>> complicated systems with unit logic anymore. ;-) >>> >>> That's because you work on gear that isn't really mass production >>> oriented. >> >> Really? A couple of million units a year isn't mass production? >> > >Oops, I probably mixed you up with someone else. I thought it was stage >electronics for rock bands and stuff.
That was the last job. ;-) I've done a few career changes in the last 10 years. Before that, one employer, oneish (perhaps two) markets, but very different jobs every five to eight years.
>>> I work for numerous clients who are all in very different >>> markets. This keeps our jobs interesting. But after talking to >>> automotive designers I'd be bored stiff if I had to do their job for >>> more than a year. >> >> Perhaps but I think you have a pretty small view of that world. > > >Nope. Medical devices for hospitals, low cost medical devices for >consumers (over-the-counter), aircraft electronics, spacecraft stuff, >chemical pump controllers, power generation, oil/gas exploration >electronics, NDT, commercial automotive (trucks), and so on.
You have a very small view of the automotive market. That is for sure.
>> However, I've been involved in many different markets at many >> different levels, over the years. It's a *big* field. There is no >> reason to do the same thing for forty years. Impossible, actually. >> > >Not impossible. I met people who worked in one particular field such as >engine control units for over 30 years. I'd have a hard time doing that, >after being a consultant for this long.
ECUs have changed more than a little in 30 years. They will change drastically, again, over the next ten. Hell, you'd have a hard time showing up for work with your pants on, after being a consultant that long. ;-)
On Sunday, October 20, 2013 9:05:15 AM UTC-4, John S wrote:
> On 10/19/2013 4:50 PM, Jasen Betts wrote: > > > On 2013-10-19, John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> wrote: > > >> On 10/19/2013 2:26 AM, Jasen Betts wrote: > > >>> On 2013-10-17, RobertMacy <robert.a.macy@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>>> On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 06:01:01 -0700, George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> > > >>> current buck-boost converter. > > >>> > > >>> +--+-FET--+--|<------- > >>> | | > >>> === 3|| > >>> | 3|| > >>> | | > >>> +--+------+----------- > > >>> > > >>> the more time the switch (FET in the diagram) > > >>> spends off the larger the current output > > >>> > > >> > > >> I don't understand how you can get more current out of the inductor than > > >> it had when the switch opened. > > > > > > You can't, that's why decreasing the on-time increses the current. > > > > > That capacitor on the left that looks like it's doing nothing >> > is actually essential, you turn on the switch briefly and > > the capacitor supplies the bulk of the current to wind the inductor up. > > if you want to simulate this arrange the simulation to start with the > > > switch closed. >
> Do you have a simulation you can share with us?
I was going to say it looked a bit like what I drew for a current boost. But I had the diode and inductor switched around. +----+--FET--+-LLL--+ | | | | ^ C _ R I C ^ R | | | | +----+-------+------+ Something like that, George H.