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2N4261 modern days replacement

Started by Sergey Kubushyn June 26, 2013
Can anybody point to something available now to replace 2N4261 transistor?
It will be used in its primary role, as fast switcher.

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BFT92 might be close.  Don't think the t_r, t_f is spec'd, but I doubt 
they use the same test circuit as the original, either (I'm looking at an 
old Motorola scan for reference here).  Volts, amps and frequency are 
comparable.  Have fun with the package though.

Tim

-- 
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com

"Sergey Kubushyn" <ksi@koi8.net> wrote in message 
news:kqfghn$k97$1@speranza.aioe.org...
> Can anybody point to something available now to replace 2N4261 > transistor? > It will be used in its primary role, as fast switcher. > > --- > ****************************************************************** > * KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. * > * Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. * > ******************************************************************
Tim Williams <tmoranwms@charter.net> wrote:

> BFT92 might be close. Don't think the t_r, t_f is spec'd, but I doubt > they use the same test circuit as the original, either (I'm looking at an > old Motorola scan for reference here). Volts, amps and frequency are > comparable. Have fun with the package though.
OK, thanks, will give it a try. It might be _too_ HF and start oscilating and saturation voltage is not known and it is not clear how fast it will go into saturation and back but it is definitely worth to try. As of the package -- SOT23 is a big one, no problems whatsoever :) --- ****************************************************************** * KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. * * Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. * ******************************************************************
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 19:48:07 +0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn <ksi@koi8.net>
wrote:

>Can anybody point to something available now to replace 2N4261 =
transistor?
>It will be used in its primary role, as fast switcher. > >--- >****************************************************************** >* KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. * >* Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. * >******************************************************************
The device actually seems to actually be available (arrow) in to72 = package made by microsemi and semicoa (albeit only in expensive military grades). Doesn't seem all that special from the data sheets i found. ?-)
josephkk <joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 19:48:07 +0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn <ksi@koi8.net> > wrote: > >>Can anybody point to something available now to replace 2N4261 transistor? >>It will be used in its primary role, as fast switcher. >> > The device actually seems to actually be available (arrow) in to72 package > made by microsemi and semicoa (albeit only in expensive military grades). > Doesn't seem all that special from the data sheets i found.
It is "available" but they have none in stock. You can definitely place an order with them for a box or more and eventually you might even get it in a year or so. The only real guys who do have those in stock are Freelance Electronics. BTW, highly recommended -- they have lots of obsolete and rare parts and those are really in stock so you get actual price right away and can purchase them online and get them shipped next business day. Not like all those sellers of hot air (and now many of them even show up on Octopart) that you have to ask for a quote, give them your target price and they might start looking for those parts usually coming out empty. Quest has 3 (three) in stock, Freelance has more (100+) but those are pretty expensive. I would like to buy something like 50 of those but not going to do this for $10 a pop... As for not being all that special -- such an expression usually means there are many similar parts around so one can just use something else. So if they are not all that special please point me to those similar transistors and I will happily purchase those instead. The closest one I'm aware of is BSR12. It works just fine in place of e.g. 2N4258 that is also used in many older Tek instruments but 2N4261 is at least 5 times faster and I can not find anything that would've matched its speed among modern transistors. If you know something suitable please tell what it is. --- ****************************************************************** * KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. * * Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. * ******************************************************************
On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 03:44:03 +0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn <ksi@koi8.net>
wrote:

>josephkk <joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 19:48:07 +0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn =
<ksi@koi8.net>
>> wrote: >>=20 >>>Can anybody point to something available now to replace 2N4261 =
transistor?
>>>It will be used in its primary role, as fast switcher. >>> >> The device actually seems to actually be available (arrow) in to72 =
package
>> made by microsemi and semicoa (albeit only in expensive military =
grades).
>> Doesn't seem all that special from the data sheets i found. > >It is "available" but they have none in stock. You can definitely place =
an
>order with them for a box or more and eventually you might even get it =
in a
>year or so. > >The only real guys who do have those in stock are Freelance Electronics. >BTW, highly recommended -- they have lots of obsolete and rare parts and >those are really in stock so you get actual price right away and can >purchase them online and get them shipped next business day. Not like =
all
>those sellers of hot air (and now many of them even show up on Octopart) >that you have to ask for a quote, give them your target price and they =
might
>start looking for those parts usually coming out empty. > >Quest has 3 (three) in stock, Freelance has more (100+) but those are =
pretty
>expensive. I would like to buy something like 50 of those but not going =
to
>do this for $10 a pop... > >As for not being all that special -- such an expression usually means =
there
>are many similar parts around so one can just use something else. So if =
they
>are not all that special please point me to those similar transistors =
and I
>will happily purchase those instead. > >The closest one I'm aware of is BSR12. It works just fine in place of =
e.g.
>2N4258 that is also used in many older Tek instruments but 2N4261 is at >least 5 times faster and I can not find anything that would've matched =
its
>speed among modern transistors. If you know something suitable please =
tell
>what it is. > >--- >****************************************************************** >* KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. * >* Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. * >******************************************************************
Well a quick bit of hunting brought up BFT92 and BFQ75 both in surface mount packages. Both of have higher ft though. ?-)
josephkk <joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 03:44:03 +0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn <ksi@koi8.net> > wrote: > >>josephkk <joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >>> On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 19:48:07 +0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn <ksi@koi8.net> >>> wrote: >>> >>>>Can anybody point to something available now to replace 2N4261 transistor? >>>>It will be used in its primary role, as fast switcher. >>>> >>> The device actually seems to actually be available (arrow) in to72 package >>> made by microsemi and semicoa (albeit only in expensive military grades). >>> Doesn't seem all that special from the data sheets i found. >> >>It is "available" but they have none in stock. You can definitely place an >>order with them for a box or more and eventually you might even get it in a >>year or so. >> >>The only real guys who do have those in stock are Freelance Electronics. >>BTW, highly recommended -- they have lots of obsolete and rare parts and >>those are really in stock so you get actual price right away and can >>purchase them online and get them shipped next business day. Not like all >>those sellers of hot air (and now many of them even show up on Octopart) >>that you have to ask for a quote, give them your target price and they might >>start looking for those parts usually coming out empty. >> >>Quest has 3 (three) in stock, Freelance has more (100+) but those are pretty >>expensive. I would like to buy something like 50 of those but not going to >>do this for $10 a pop... >> >>As for not being all that special -- such an expression usually means there >>are many similar parts around so one can just use something else. So if they >>are not all that special please point me to those similar transistors and I >>will happily purchase those instead. >> >>The closest one I'm aware of is BSR12. It works just fine in place of e.g. >>2N4258 that is also used in many older Tek instruments but 2N4261 is at >>least 5 times faster and I can not find anything that would've matched its >>speed among modern transistors. If you know something suitable please tell >>what it is. > > Well a quick bit of hunting brought up BFT92 and BFQ75 both in surface > mount packages. Both of have higher ft though.
BFQ75 is even a bigger rarity than 2N4261. BFT92 I do know and was going to give those a try but they are NOT switching transistors. They MIGHT work OK for fast saturating switching but that is not guaranteed -- nobody tested them in such applications and high Ft does not guarantee they would be as good switchers as they are amplifiers. NXP switching transistors are BSxxx (for BipolarSwitching ?) and their best PNP switching transistor is BSR12 that is way slower than 2N4261. And neither Semicoa nor Microsemi do even specify such a parameter as Ft; they only give turn-on and turn-off times that are not specified for BFT92 (BF standing for Bipolar ampliFier?) --- ****************************************************************** * KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. * * Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. * ******************************************************************
El 01-07-13 5:42, Sergey Kubushyn escribi&#2013265923;:
> josephkk<joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 03:44:03 +0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn<ksi@koi8.net> >> wrote: >> >>> josephkk<joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >>>> On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 19:48:07 +0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn<ksi@koi8.net> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Can anybody point to something available now to replace 2N4261 transistor? >>>>> It will be used in its primary role, as fast switcher. >>>>> >>>> The device actually seems to actually be available (arrow) in to72 package >>>> made by microsemi and semicoa (albeit only in expensive military grades). >>>> Doesn't seem all that special from the data sheets i found. >>> >>> It is "available" but they have none in stock. You can definitely place an >>> order with them for a box or more and eventually you might even get it in a >>> year or so. >>> >>> The only real guys who do have those in stock are Freelance Electronics. >>> BTW, highly recommended -- they have lots of obsolete and rare parts and >>> those are really in stock so you get actual price right away and can >>> purchase them online and get them shipped next business day. Not like all >>> those sellers of hot air (and now many of them even show up on Octopart) >>> that you have to ask for a quote, give them your target price and they might >>> start looking for those parts usually coming out empty. >>> >>> Quest has 3 (three) in stock, Freelance has more (100+) but those are pretty >>> expensive. I would like to buy something like 50 of those but not going to >>> do this for $10 a pop... >>> >>> As for not being all that special -- such an expression usually means there >>> are many similar parts around so one can just use something else. So if they >>> are not all that special please point me to those similar transistors and I >>> will happily purchase those instead. >>> >>> The closest one I'm aware of is BSR12. It works just fine in place of e.g. >>> 2N4258 that is also used in many older Tek instruments but 2N4261 is at >>> least 5 times faster and I can not find anything that would've matched its >>> speed among modern transistors. If you know something suitable please tell >>> what it is. >> >> Well a quick bit of hunting brought up BFT92 and BFQ75 both in surface >> mount packages. Both of have higher ft though. > > BFQ75 is even a bigger rarity than 2N4261. BFT92 I do know and was going to > give those a try but they are NOT switching transistors. They MIGHT work OK > for fast saturating switching but that is not guaranteed -- nobody tested > them in such applications and high Ft does not guarantee they would be as > good switchers as they are amplifiers.
Is it really used as a saturated switch? The test circuit below the switching time graphs of an old Motorola datasheet (can be found on the web) shows a long-tailed pair. This suggest non-saturated switching times. If it is used as saturated switch, is it really that fast as shown in some short-form datasheets? All short form datasheets don't show the reverse base current for measuring turn-off time.
> > NXP switching transistors are BSxxx (for BipolarSwitching ?) and their best > PNP switching transistor is BSR12 that is way slower than 2N4261. And > neither Semicoa nor Microsemi do even specify such a parameter as Ft; they > only give turn-on and turn-off times that are not specified for BFT92 (BF > standing for Bipolar ampliFier?) > > --- > ****************************************************************** > * KSI@home KOI8 Net< > The impossible we do immediately. * > * Las Vegas NV, USA< > Miracles require 24-hour notice. * > ******************************************************************
-- Wim PA3DJS www.tetech.nl Please remove abc first in case of PM
Wimpie <wimabctel@tetech.nl> wrote:
> El 01-07-13 5:42, Sergey Kubushyn escribi&oacute;: >> josephkk<joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >>> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 03:44:03 +0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn<ksi@koi8.net> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> josephkk<joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >>>>> On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 19:48:07 +0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn<ksi@koi8.net> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Can anybody point to something available now to replace 2N4261 transistor? >>>>>> It will be used in its primary role, as fast switcher. >>>>>> >>>>> The device actually seems to actually be available (arrow) in to72 package >>>>> made by microsemi and semicoa (albeit only in expensive military grades). >>>>> Doesn't seem all that special from the data sheets i found. >>>> >>>> It is "available" but they have none in stock. You can definitely place an >>>> order with them for a box or more and eventually you might even get it in a >>>> year or so. >>>> >>>> The only real guys who do have those in stock are Freelance Electronics. >>>> BTW, highly recommended -- they have lots of obsolete and rare parts and >>>> those are really in stock so you get actual price right away and can >>>> purchase them online and get them shipped next business day. Not like all >>>> those sellers of hot air (and now many of them even show up on Octopart) >>>> that you have to ask for a quote, give them your target price and they might >>>> start looking for those parts usually coming out empty. >>>> >>>> Quest has 3 (three) in stock, Freelance has more (100+) but those are pretty >>>> expensive. I would like to buy something like 50 of those but not going to >>>> do this for $10 a pop... >>>> >>>> As for not being all that special -- such an expression usually means there >>>> are many similar parts around so one can just use something else. So if they >>>> are not all that special please point me to those similar transistors and I >>>> will happily purchase those instead. >>>> >>>> The closest one I'm aware of is BSR12. It works just fine in place of e.g. >>>> 2N4258 that is also used in many older Tek instruments but 2N4261 is at >>>> least 5 times faster and I can not find anything that would've matched its >>>> speed among modern transistors. If you know something suitable please tell >>>> what it is. >>> >>> Well a quick bit of hunting brought up BFT92 and BFQ75 both in surface >>> mount packages. Both of have higher ft though. >> >> BFQ75 is even a bigger rarity than 2N4261. BFT92 I do know and was going to >> give those a try but they are NOT switching transistors. They MIGHT work OK >> for fast saturating switching but that is not guaranteed -- nobody tested >> them in such applications and high Ft does not guarantee they would be as >> good switchers as they are amplifiers. > > Is it really used as a saturated switch? The test circuit below the > switching time graphs of an old Motorola datasheet (can be found on > the web) shows a long-tailed pair. This suggest non-saturated > switching times. > > If it is used as saturated switch, is it really that fast as shown in > some short-form datasheets? All short form datasheets don't show the > reverse base current for measuring turn-off time.
Look at Semicoa or Microsemi datasheets. They clearly say "Saturated Turn On Switching Time to 90%" and off to 10% (Vcc = 17V, 50 ohm pulse generator). And yes, it is used as saturated switch. I can not find that old Motorola datasheet. I can only find various Semicoa/Microsemi datasheets (some shorter, some more complete) and one really old from New Jersey Semiconductor Products, Inc. dated June 1973. I confess to not digging past Google 5th page but it is mostly junk "sellers" ready to sell you any part, even one that never existed. --- ****************************************************************** * KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. * * Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. * ******************************************************************
On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 22:26:20 +0000, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:

> Wimpie <wimabctel@tetech.nl> wrote: >> El 01-07-13 5:42, Sergey Kubushyn escribi&oacute;: >>> josephkk<joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >>>> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 03:44:03 +0000 (UTC), Sergey >>>> Kubushyn<ksi@koi8.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> josephkk<joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >>>>>> On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 19:48:07 +0000 (UTC), Sergey >>>>>> Kubushyn<ksi@koi8.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Can anybody point to something available now to replace 2N4261 >>>>>>> transistor? It will be used in its primary role, as fast switcher. >>>>>>> >>>>>> The device actually seems to actually be available (arrow) in to72 >>>>>> package made by microsemi and semicoa (albeit only in expensive >>>>>> military grades). Doesn't seem all that special from the data >>>>>> sheets i found. >>>>> >>>>> It is "available" but they have none in stock. You can definitely >>>>> place an order with them for a box or more and eventually you might >>>>> even get it in a year or so. >>>>> >>>>> The only real guys who do have those in stock are Freelance >>>>> Electronics. BTW, highly recommended -- they have lots of obsolete >>>>> and rare parts and those are really in stock so you get actual price >>>>> right away and can purchase them online and get them shipped next >>>>> business day. Not like all those sellers of hot air (and now many of >>>>> them even show up on Octopart) that you have to ask for a quote, >>>>> give them your target price and they might start looking for those >>>>> parts usually coming out empty. >>>>> >>>>> Quest has 3 (three) in stock, Freelance has more (100+) but those >>>>> are pretty expensive. I would like to buy something like 50 of those >>>>> but not going to do this for $10 a pop... >>>>> >>>>> As for not being all that special -- such an expression usually >>>>> means there are many similar parts around so one can just use >>>>> something else. So if they are not all that special please point me >>>>> to those similar transistors and I will happily purchase those >>>>> instead. >>>>> >>>>> The closest one I'm aware of is BSR12. It works just fine in place >>>>> of e.g. 2N4258 that is also used in many older Tek instruments but >>>>> 2N4261 is at least 5 times faster and I can not find anything that >>>>> would've matched its speed among modern transistors. If you know >>>>> something suitable please tell what it is. >>>> >>>> Well a quick bit of hunting brought up BFT92 and BFQ75 both in >>>> surface mount packages. Both of have higher ft though. >>> >>> BFQ75 is even a bigger rarity than 2N4261. BFT92 I do know and was >>> going to give those a try but they are NOT switching transistors. They >>> MIGHT work OK for fast saturating switching but that is not guaranteed >>> -- nobody tested them in such applications and high Ft does not >>> guarantee they would be as good switchers as they are amplifiers. >> >> Is it really used as a saturated switch? The test circuit below the >> switching time graphs of an old Motorola datasheet (can be found on the >> web) shows a long-tailed pair. This suggest non-saturated switching >> times. >> >> If it is used as saturated switch, is it really that fast as shown in >> some short-form datasheets? All short form datasheets don't show the >> reverse base current for measuring turn-off time. > > Look at Semicoa or Microsemi datasheets. They clearly say "Saturated > Turn On Switching Time to 90%" and off to 10% (Vcc = 17V, 50 ohm pulse > generator). > > And yes, it is used as saturated switch. > > I can not find that old Motorola datasheet. I can only find various > Semicoa/Microsemi datasheets (some shorter, some more complete) and one > really old from New Jersey Semiconductor Products, Inc. dated June 1973. > I confess to not digging past Google 5th page but it is mostly junk > "sellers" ready to sell you any part, even one that never existed. > > --- > ****************************************************************** * > KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. * * Las > Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. * > ******************************************************************
There's a 3-page datasheet in the Moto "Small Signal Semiconductors" (C) 1987, starting on page 4-172. My copy has some obvious printing defects, but definitely gives turn-on and turn-off delays.