On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 12:51:05 -0700, Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote:>On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 11:22:24 -0700 (PDT), >bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: > >><snip> > >>This looks like something produced by former DEC people: >>http://www.dbit.com/ >> >> I don't think GE is actually using that ancient wire-wrapped >> kluge for the CPU. > >If it doesn't sport a PDP-11/70 or PDP-11/45 front panel, >it's not a PDP-11.Hey, what about the 11/20, 11/35, and all the variants of LSI-11? I don't care about how good the emulation>might be. I need lights and switches that work right. (Toggle >in bootstraps, etc.) I also would need a working paper tape >reader and punch. Would help immensely to also include an >ASR-33 or KSR-35. These human interfaces are very important. >But most especially the front panel. The rest may be >negotiable. But not the front panel.LSI-11s had mini BIOS sorts of things, with minimal console serial commands, boot loaders, like that. I wrote a couple of them. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com http://www.highlandtechnology.com Precision electronic instrumentation Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators Custom laser drivers and controllers Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro acquisition and simulation
the PDP-11 lives!
Started by ●June 19, 2013
Reply by ●June 21, 20132013-06-21
Reply by ●June 21, 20132013-06-21
On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 10:50:49 -0700, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:>On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 12:51:05 -0700, Jon Kirwan ><jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: > >>On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 11:22:24 -0700 (PDT), >>bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: >> >>><snip> >> >>>This looks like something produced by former DEC people: >>>http://www.dbit.com/ >>> >>> I don't think GE is actually using that ancient wire-wrapped >>> kluge for the CPU. >> >>If it doesn't sport a PDP-11/70 or PDP-11/45 front panel, >>it's not a PDP-11. > >Hey, what about the 11/20, 11/35, and all the variants of LSI-11?I used the 11/20, as well. Never met an 11/35, but I see it also has a front panel. Good! I don't recall an LSI-11 with a front panel. Was there one?>>I don't care about how good the emulation >>might be. I need lights and switches that work right. (Toggle >>in bootstraps, etc.) I also would need a working paper tape >>reader and punch. Would help immensely to also include an >>ASR-33 or KSR-35. These human interfaces are very important. >>But most especially the front panel. The rest may be >>negotiable. But not the front panel. > >LSI-11s had mini BIOS sorts of things, with minimal console serial >commands, boot loaders, like that. I wrote a couple of them.Yes. The VAX-11/780, for example, ALSO had a minimal built-in console that you could use to examine memory and so on, before booting the system. Not unlike the LSI-11's microcoded debugger thingy. I used it for a little while. But as I mentioned, I never saw a front panel on an LSI-11. Never really liked them because of that (except for cost, of course.) Jon
Reply by ●June 21, 20132013-06-21
On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 12:50:12 -0700, Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote:>On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 10:50:49 -0700, John Larkin ><jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: > >>On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 12:51:05 -0700, Jon Kirwan >><jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: >> >>>On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 11:22:24 -0700 (PDT), >>>bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: >>> >>>><snip> >>> >>>>This looks like something produced by former DEC people: >>>>http://www.dbit.com/ >>>> >>>> I don't think GE is actually using that ancient wire-wrapped >>>> kluge for the CPU. >>> >>>If it doesn't sport a PDP-11/70 or PDP-11/45 front panel, >>>it's not a PDP-11. >> >>Hey, what about the 11/20, 11/35, and all the variants of LSI-11? > >I used the 11/20, as well. Never met an 11/35, but I see it >also has a front panel. Good! > >I don't recall an LSI-11 with a front panel. Was there one?Not with all those switches and lights.> >>>I don't care about how good the emulation >>>might be. I need lights and switches that work right. (Toggle >>>in bootstraps, etc.) I also would need a working paper tape >>>reader and punch. Would help immensely to also include an >>>ASR-33 or KSR-35. These human interfaces are very important. >>>But most especially the front panel. The rest may be >>>negotiable. But not the front panel. >> >>LSI-11s had mini BIOS sorts of things, with minimal console serial >>commands, boot loaders, like that. I wrote a couple of them. > >Yes. The VAX-11/780, for example, ALSO had a minimal built-in >console that you could use to examine memory and so on, >before booting the system. Not unlike the LSI-11's microcoded >debugger thingy. I used it for a little while. But as I >mentioned, I never saw a front panel on an LSI-11. Never >really liked them because of that (except for cost, of >course.) >I think the first VAXen had a PDP-8 as the console. It actually booted the VAX engine and did some slow i/o. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com http://www.highlandtechnology.com Precision electronic instrumentation Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators Custom laser drivers and controllers Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro acquisition and simulation
Reply by ●June 21, 20132013-06-21
On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 12:56:43 -0700, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:>On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 12:50:12 -0700, Jon Kirwan ><jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: > >>On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 10:50:49 -0700, John Larkin >><jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >> >>>On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 12:51:05 -0700, Jon Kirwan >>><jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: >>> >>>>On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 11:22:24 -0700 (PDT), >>>>bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>This looks like something produced by former DEC people: >>>>>http://www.dbit.com/ >>>>> >>>>> I don't think GE is actually using that ancient wire-wrapped >>>>> kluge for the CPU. >>>> >>>>If it doesn't sport a PDP-11/70 or PDP-11/45 front panel, >>>>it's not a PDP-11. >>> >>>Hey, what about the 11/20, 11/35, and all the variants of LSI-11? >> >>I used the 11/20, as well. Never met an 11/35, but I see it >>also has a front panel. Good! >> >>I don't recall an LSI-11 with a front panel. Was there one? > >Not with all those switches and lights.Then I wouldn't care about it. No blinken' lights and no switches? Yuk!>>>>I don't care about how good the emulation >>>>might be. I need lights and switches that work right. (Toggle >>>>in bootstraps, etc.) I also would need a working paper tape >>>>reader and punch. Would help immensely to also include an >>>>ASR-33 or KSR-35. These human interfaces are very important. >>>>But most especially the front panel. The rest may be >>>>negotiable. But not the front panel. >>> >>>LSI-11s had mini BIOS sorts of things, with minimal console serial >>>commands, boot loaders, like that. I wrote a couple of them. >> >>Yes. The VAX-11/780, for example, ALSO had a minimal built-in >>console that you could use to examine memory and so on, >>before booting the system. Not unlike the LSI-11's microcoded >>debugger thingy. I used it for a little while. But as I >>mentioned, I never saw a front panel on an LSI-11. Never >>really liked them because of that (except for cost, of >>course.) > >I think the first VAXen had a PDP-8 as the console. It actually booted >the VAX engine and did some slow i/o.I have to admit, I've no idea what a "VAXen" is. However, I did get to work on one of the earliest commercially sold VAX-11/780's. Which I think is the first VAX incarnation that was sold as a commercial system -- though I have to also admit a limited perspective here. I don't recall seeing a PDP-8 in the system we set up. Raised floors, yes. Air conditioning, yes. Fancy (expensive and smart) disk systems? Yes. But no PDP-8. What's a "VAXen"? Are you thinking of the first-developed pre-commercial VAX systems? (I never saw one.) Jon
Reply by ●June 21, 20132013-06-21
On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 13:10:44 -0700, Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote:>On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 12:56:43 -0700, John Larkin ><jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: > >>On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 12:50:12 -0700, Jon Kirwan >><jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: >> >>>On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 10:50:49 -0700, John Larkin >>><jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >>> >>>>On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 12:51:05 -0700, Jon Kirwan >>>><jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>>On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 11:22:24 -0700 (PDT), >>>>>bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>This looks like something produced by former DEC people: >>>>>>http://www.dbit.com/ >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't think GE is actually using that ancient wire-wrapped >>>>>> kluge for the CPU. >>>>> >>>>>If it doesn't sport a PDP-11/70 or PDP-11/45 front panel, >>>>>it's not a PDP-11. >>>> >>>>Hey, what about the 11/20, 11/35, and all the variants of LSI-11? >>> >>>I used the 11/20, as well. Never met an 11/35, but I see it >>>also has a front panel. Good! >>> >>>I don't recall an LSI-11 with a front panel. Was there one? >> >>Not with all those switches and lights. > >Then I wouldn't care about it. No blinken' lights and no >switches? Yuk! > >>>>>I don't care about how good the emulation >>>>>might be. I need lights and switches that work right. (Toggle >>>>>in bootstraps, etc.) I also would need a working paper tape >>>>>reader and punch. Would help immensely to also include an >>>>>ASR-33 or KSR-35. These human interfaces are very important. >>>>>But most especially the front panel. The rest may be >>>>>negotiable. But not the front panel. >>>> >>>>LSI-11s had mini BIOS sorts of things, with minimal console serial >>>>commands, boot loaders, like that. I wrote a couple of them. >>> >>>Yes. The VAX-11/780, for example, ALSO had a minimal built-in >>>console that you could use to examine memory and so on, >>>before booting the system. Not unlike the LSI-11's microcoded >>>debugger thingy. I used it for a little while. But as I >>>mentioned, I never saw a front panel on an LSI-11. Never >>>really liked them because of that (except for cost, of >>>course.) >> >>I think the first VAXen had a PDP-8 as the console. It actually booted >>the VAX engine and did some slow i/o. > >I have to admit, I've no idea what a "VAXen" is. However, I >did get to work on one of the earliest commercially sold >VAX-11/780's. Which I think is the first VAX incarnation that >was sold as a commercial system -- though I have to also >admit a limited perspective here. I don't recall seeing a >PDP-8 in the system we set up. Raised floors, yes. Air >conditioning, yes. Fancy (expensive and smart) disk systems? >Yes. But no PDP-8. > >What's a "VAXen"? Are you thinking of the first-developed >pre-commercial VAX systems? (I never saw one.) > >JonThat's the plural of VAX. Come to think of it, it was probably a PDP-10 that I remember as using a PDP-8 to start things up. -- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators Custom timing and laser controllers Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Reply by ●June 22, 20132013-06-22
John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:> On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 13:10:44 -0700, Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 12:56:43 -0700, John Larkin >> <jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >> >>> On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 12:50:12 -0700, Jon Kirwan >>> <jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 10:50:49 -0700, John Larkin >>>> <jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 12:51:05 -0700, Jon Kirwan >>>>> <jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 11:22:24 -0700 (PDT), >>>>>> bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> <snip> >>>>>> >>>>>>> This looks like something produced by former DEC people: >>>>>>> http://www.dbit.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't think GE is actually using that ancient wire-wrapped >>>>>>> kluge for the CPU. >>>>>> >>>>>> If it doesn't sport a PDP-11/70 or PDP-11/45 front panel, >>>>>> it's not a PDP-11. >>>>> >>>>> Hey, what about the 11/20, 11/35, and all the variants of LSI-11? >>>> >>>> I used the 11/20, as well. Never met an 11/35, but I see it >>>> also has a front panel. Good! >>>> >>>> I don't recall an LSI-11 with a front panel. Was there one? >>> >>> Not with all those switches and lights. >> >> Then I wouldn't care about it. No blinken' lights and no >> switches? Yuk! >> >>>>>> I don't care about how good the emulation >>>>>> might be. I need lights and switches that work right. (Toggle >>>>>> in bootstraps, etc.) I also would need a working paper tape >>>>>> reader and punch. Would help immensely to also include an >>>>>> ASR-33 or KSR-35. These human interfaces are very important. >>>>>> But most especially the front panel. The rest may be >>>>>> negotiable. But not the front panel. >>>>> >>>>> LSI-11s had mini BIOS sorts of things, with minimal console serial >>>>> commands, boot loaders, like that. I wrote a couple of them. >>>> >>>> Yes. The VAX-11/780, for example, ALSO had a minimal built-in >>>> console that you could use to examine memory and so on, >>>> before booting the system. Not unlike the LSI-11's microcoded >>>> debugger thingy. I used it for a little while. But as I >>>> mentioned, I never saw a front panel on an LSI-11. Never >>>> really liked them because of that (except for cost, of >>>> course.) >>> >>> I think the first VAXen had a PDP-8 as the console. It actually booted >>> the VAX engine and did some slow i/o. >> >> I have to admit, I've no idea what a "VAXen" is. However, I >> did get to work on one of the earliest commercially sold >> VAX-11/780's. Which I think is the first VAX incarnation that >> was sold as a commercial system -- though I have to also >> admit a limited perspective here. I don't recall seeing a >> PDP-8 in the system we set up. Raised floors, yes. Air >> conditioning, yes. Fancy (expensive and smart) disk systems? >> Yes. But no PDP-8. >> >> What's a "VAXen"? Are you thinking of the first-developed >> pre-commercial VAX systems? (I never saw one.) >> >> Jon > > That's the plural of VAX. > > Come to think of it, it was probably a PDP-10 that I remember as using a PDP-8 > to start things up. >Seems to me, the 8 might have been the first computer in a box. Was not in a rack, but the 8I was. The PDP-15 was my first experience on a computer, but only worked with the 8I. Greg
Reply by ●June 22, 20132013-06-22
gregz <zekor@comcast.net> wrote:> John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >> On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 13:10:44 -0700, Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: >> >>> On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 12:56:43 -0700, John Larkin >>> <jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 12:50:12 -0700, Jon Kirwan >>>> <jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 10:50:49 -0700, John Larkin >>>>> <jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 12:51:05 -0700, Jon Kirwan >>>>>> <jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 11:22:24 -0700 (PDT), >>>>>>> bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <snip> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This looks like something produced by former DEC people: >>>>>>>> http://www.dbit.com/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't think GE is actually using that ancient wire-wrapped >>>>>>>> kluge for the CPU. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If it doesn't sport a PDP-11/70 or PDP-11/45 front panel, >>>>>>> it's not a PDP-11. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hey, what about the 11/20, 11/35, and all the variants of LSI-11? >>>>> >>>>> I used the 11/20, as well. Never met an 11/35, but I see it >>>>> also has a front panel. Good! >>>>> >>>>> I don't recall an LSI-11 with a front panel. Was there one? >>>> >>>> Not with all those switches and lights. >>> >>> Then I wouldn't care about it. No blinken' lights and no >>> switches? Yuk! >>> >>>>>>> I don't care about how good the emulation >>>>>>> might be. I need lights and switches that work right. (Toggle >>>>>>> in bootstraps, etc.) I also would need a working paper tape >>>>>>> reader and punch. Would help immensely to also include an >>>>>>> ASR-33 or KSR-35. These human interfaces are very important. >>>>>>> But most especially the front panel. The rest may be >>>>>>> negotiable. But not the front panel. >>>>>> >>>>>> LSI-11s had mini BIOS sorts of things, with minimal console serial >>>>>> commands, boot loaders, like that. I wrote a couple of them. >>>>> >>>>> Yes. The VAX-11/780, for example, ALSO had a minimal built-in >>>>> console that you could use to examine memory and so on, >>>>> before booting the system. Not unlike the LSI-11's microcoded >>>>> debugger thingy. I used it for a little while. But as I >>>>> mentioned, I never saw a front panel on an LSI-11. Never >>>>> really liked them because of that (except for cost, of >>>>> course.) >>>> >>>> I think the first VAXen had a PDP-8 as the console. It actually booted >>>> the VAX engine and did some slow i/o. >>> >>> I have to admit, I've no idea what a "VAXen" is. However, I >>> did get to work on one of the earliest commercially sold >>> VAX-11/780's. Which I think is the first VAX incarnation that >>> was sold as a commercial system -- though I have to also >>> admit a limited perspective here. I don't recall seeing a >>> PDP-8 in the system we set up. Raised floors, yes. Air >>> conditioning, yes. Fancy (expensive and smart) disk systems? >>> Yes. But no PDP-8. >>> >>> What's a "VAXen"? Are you thinking of the first-developed >>> pre-commercial VAX systems? (I never saw one.) >>> >>> Jon >> >> That's the plural of VAX. >> >> Come to think of it, it was probably a PDP-10 that I remember as using a PDP-8 >> to start things up. >> > > Seems to me, the 8 might have been the first computer in a box. Was not in > a rack, but the 8I was. The PDP-15 was my first experience on a computer, > but only worked with the 8I. > > GregThe PDP-8I had those smooth switches where you could really load boot loader in fast. I wonder how fast I did it. Greg
Reply by ●June 22, 20132013-06-22
John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> writes:> I think the first VAXen had a PDP-8 as the console. It actually booted > the VAX engine and did some slow i/o. >The first commercial VAX (the /780) had a very small LSI-11 (11/03 I'm pretty sure, but I can't swear to that in court) that managed the RX01 boot diskette and loaded the WCS as part of the cold-start procedure. It was in the very bottom of the left half of the CPU cabinet, under the space where the massbus adapters were, IIRC. The most vivid thing I recall of cold-starting the 780 was that the LSI-11 ROM would load the head, read some very small amount (a sector? Maybe two), unload the head, wait a few revs, load the head, read, unlaod, wait ... It took several minutes to load the microcode off the floppy. There were different revs of the microcode for VMS or BSD 4.3. (Didn't the KL have the same kind of deal -- there were microcode differences for ITS versus "everything else"? [Rich Alderson, you're on deck here....]) I never owned a /750, so I'm not sure what it had -- but I do recall, that was the only of the 11/7x0 machines that could load the WCS from the hard disk ... I also have a vague memory that the /750 had some of the microcode in mask roms, and that only ECO fixes were loaded during cold-start, but that's highly dubious -- I could be mistaking it for another machine of the vintage. The /730 had The Tape Drive Whose Name We Don't Utter and an 8085 controlling it to load the WCS ... and took - f - o - r - e - v ......... e - ..... r .... to boot. It did have the "neat - in the same way that shoving a dozen undergrads into a phone booth was neat - totally useless, but people do it 'because they can'" feature that the boot media drive was available under VMS as an ALLOCable device. In case there was someone masochistic enough that they wanted to make a backup on very low-density very unreliable tape at a couple hundred bytes per second. The serial port that connected the tape drive to the console processor ran at 9600 bps, but only transferred six (am I remembering that right? Was it six or was it four) bits at a time. The one time that the boot-media drive was *actually* useful was if you had the microcode assembler and source (which I did (painstakingly typed in by hand from photostat prints made from the microfiches)), so you could add instructions and what-not. By VMS 4.5, there was something like eight words of WCS free after all the ECOs were loaded. One night around pizza and beer, we did a back-of-the-envelope calculation about the feasability of turning the /730 into a Very Heavy, Very Slow, Very Noisy, Very Hot, High Power Consumption 680x0. The consensus was "Maybe - but it would be a VERY tight fit". -- NK1G - Lawrence echo 'lawrenabae@abaluon.abaom' | sed s/aba/c/g
Reply by ●June 22, 20132013-06-22
John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> writes:> > Come to think of it, it was probably a PDP-10 that I remember as > using a PDP-8 to start things up. >Well, the KA and KI were "PDP-10s in hardware" so they had no front-end processor. "Everyone knows" the FEP on the KL was a Unibus 11/40. I'm pretty sure the KS had a microproccesor based front-end much like the 8085 one in the contemporaneous VAXen) After the PDP-8 had pretty-much gone to pasture, the only thing at Digital that was 8-ish was the WS78, which used a PDP-8-on-a-chip (I now can't recall if it was the Intersil 6120, or an in-house Digital part, or a Digital-fabbed 6120) -- NK1G - Lawrence echo 'lawrenabae@abaluon.abaom' | sed s/aba/c/g
Reply by ●June 23, 20132013-06-23
On Sat, 22 Jun 2013 03:28:19 +0000 (UTC), gregz <zekor@comcast.net> = wrote:> >>> What's a "VAXen"? Are you thinking of the first-developed >>> pre-commercial VAX systems? (I never saw one.) >>>=20 >>> Jon >>=20 >> That's the plural of VAX. >>=20 >> Come to think of it, it was probably a PDP-10 that I remember as using=a PDP-8>> to start things up. >>=20 > >Seems to me, the 8 might have been the first computer in a box. Was not =in>a rack, but the 8I was. The PDP-15 was my first experience on a =computer,>but only worked with the 8I. > >GregI don't suggest being very sure about that one. In the very early 1970s = i was trained on and could use AN/UYK-4 systems that were built since the mid 1960s. 30 bit computer including ram and IO in a single 38 inch wide cabinet 6 feet tall. Then i trained on the AN/UYK-7, a 32 bit modular computer with a minimal configuration of 28 inches wide and 36 inches = tall that did about 1 mips. Still early 1970s. Both used magnetic core memory. ?-)
