On May 2, 5:45=A0pm, dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com wrote:> On May 2, 4:32=A0pm, Cydrome Leader <prese...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote: > > > dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com wrote: > > > 4.7uF 6.3V X5R > > > dC =3D -70% @ 6VDC (!!) > > > =A0http://psearch.murata.com/capacitor/product/GRM188R60J475ME19%23.p=df> > > > James > > > that is pretty bad, but not a murata issue, vishas has a short doc on > > MLCCs > > >http://www.vishay.com/docs/40144/capchange.pdf > > Yep, it's a matter of high dielectric constant materials. =A0Standard > for Z5U[*], unexpected for X7R-types. The subject carpacitor(tm) was > X5R, but looks more like Z5U than X7R. > > I'm looking at a few mfrs' offerings to see if anyone's dielectric is > better... > > (*)(e.g.http://www.yageo.com/documents/recent/UPY-GPHC_Y5V_6.3V-to-50V_5.=pdf)> > -- > Cheers, > James ArthurWell as you know the X5/7 spec is just the tempco. Anything goes with the V spec I guess. buyer beware and all that.... Thanks for the 'heads up' George H.
Crapacitors
Started by ●May 2, 2013
Reply by ●May 2, 20132013-05-02
Reply by ●May 2, 20132013-05-02
On May 2, 6:05=A0pm, John Larkin <jlar...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:> On Thu, 2 May 2013 12:31:43 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com > wrote: > > >4.7uF 6.3V X5R > >dC =3D -70% @ 6VDC (!!) > > =A0http://psearch.murata.com/capacitor/product/GRM188R60J475ME19%23.pdf > > >James > > It's like a tantalum cap rated for X volts, with recommendation to > never use it at X volts. > > (I actually use tantalum caps at rated voltage *if* there's not much > charging current available. Otherwise, X/3 is about right.) > > -- > > John Larkin =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Highland Technology, Inc > > jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot comhttp://www.highlandtechnology.com > > Precision electronic instrumentation > Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators > Custom laser drivers and controllers > Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links > VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro =A0 acquisition and simulationI've got this audio amp that runs off 15 volts. But I've told people you can stick upto 40V into it. (as long as it doesn't over heat.) The IC's are good to 60V (I think, LM675?) but I've only got 50V tants as bypass C's. I should do a mod to 100V tants. Someone will want more V. George H.
Reply by ●May 2, 20132013-05-02
On May 2, 8:29=A0pm, George Herold <gher...@teachspin.com> wrote:> On May 2, 5:45=A0pm, dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com wrote: > > > > > On May 2, 4:32=A0pm, Cydrome Leader <prese...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote: > > > > dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com wrote: > > > > 4.7uF 6.3V X5R > > > > dC =3D -70% @ 6VDC (!!) > > > > =A0http://psearch.murata.com/capacitor/product/GRM188R60J475ME19%23=.pdf> > > > > James > > > > that is pretty bad, but not a murata issue, vishas has a short doc on > > > MLCCs > > > >http://www.vishay.com/docs/40144/capchange.pdf > > > Yep, it's a matter of high dielectric constant materials. =A0Standard > > for Z5U[*], unexpected for X7R-types. The subject carpacitor(tm) was > > X5R, but looks more like Z5U than X7R. > > > I'm looking at a few mfrs' offerings to see if anyone's dielectric is > > better... > > > (*)(e.g.http://www.yageo.com/documents/recent/UPY-GPHC_Y5V_6.3V-to-50V_=5.pdf)> > > Well as you know the X5/7 spec is just the tempco. =A0Anything goes with > the V spec I guess. =A0buyer beware and all that....Yup, the X/?/? notation mostly tells you Class I, II, or III dielectric. I thought perhaps different mfrs would have different secret sauces. If so, I haven't found it yet. Pg. 9, figure 4 of the Yageo link is frightening. A 50V Y5V has 90% C- loss at 20WVDC. Getting a MUCH-higher woltage-rated part helps preserve capacitance a smidgen. Using a physically larger part helps a lot.> Thanks for the 'heads up'Sure. I thought Joerg might be interested for his transducer-cap selection. He'd want high capacitance, low-voltage, and small package. That should maximize everything we normally hate. -- Cheers, James Arthur
Reply by ●May 3, 20132013-05-03
On May 2, 2:31=A0pm, dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com wrote:> 4.7uF 6.3V X5R > dC =3D -70% @ 6VDC (!!) > =A0http://psearch.murata.com/capacitor/product/GRM188R60J475ME19%23.pdf > > JamesCAPACITANCE LOSS vs. DC VOLTAGE, 0603, 4.7uF, mfr=3DTDK DC-Bias/V X5R, 35V JB, 6.3V X5R, 10V --------- -------- -------- -------- 0V 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 1.25 -3.7 -4.4 -16.2 2 -10.2 -11.6 -38.2 2.5 -16.6 -23.0 3.15 -24.5 -31.5 -58.8 4 -35.4 -41.4 -68.0 5 -45.9 -54.0 -75.6 6.3 -56.9 -81.8 8 -67.5 -86.5 10 -74.8 -89.6 12.5 -80.9 16 -86.0 25 -91.6 35 -94.2 Just FYI, here's a comparison of some TDK parts in various dielectrics. These data are from TDK's Component Characteristic Viewer, http://www.tdk.co.jp/ccv/index.asp -- Cheers, James Arthur
Reply by ●May 3, 20132013-05-03
John Fields wrote:> On Thu, 02 May 2013 17:31:05 -0800, Robert Baer > <robertbaer@localnet.com> wrote: > >> dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote: >>> 4.7uF 6.3V X5R >>> dC = -70% @ 6VDC (!!) >>> http://psearch.murata.com/capacitor/product/GRM188R60J475ME19%23.pdf >>> >>> James >> Now when i tried to look at the PDF, my Adobe 9.0 wanted an "upgrade" >> by adding Japanese font. >> I said no, and got essentially blank pages. >> So, i retried, said yes and everything was there. >> Drawings, graphs, etc have NOTHING to do with Japanese, and only >> English was used. >> WTF??????????????? >> Crapadobe. > > --- > You found a workaround, got what you wanted, and then cursed the > source which fed you because they didn't have a silver spoon? > > That's disgraceful. >JIL
Reply by ●May 3, 20132013-05-03
On Thu, 02 May 2013 17:54:47 -0700, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:>On Thu, 02 May 2013 18:29:42 -0500, John Fields ><jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote: > >>On Thu, 02 May 2013 15:05:54 -0700, John Larkin >><jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >> >>>On Thu, 2 May 2013 12:31:43 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com >>>wrote: >>> >>>>4.7uF 6.3V X5R >>>>dC = -70% @ 6VDC (!!) >>>> http://psearch.murata.com/capacitor/product/GRM188R60J475ME19%23.pdf >>>> >>>>James >>> >>>It's like a tantalum cap rated for X volts, with recommendation to >>>never use it at X volts. >>> >>>(I actually use tantalum caps at rated voltage *if* there's not much >>>charging current available. Otherwise, X/3 is about right.) >> >>--- >>Actually, I think what's being commented on is the unexpected >>tolerance of the capacitance of the cap rather than the cap's >>likelihood of failure as a function of charging current/terminal >>voltage. > >What we're talking about is whether you can, in real life situations, >actually use an X volt rated cap at X volts.--- That's what _you're_ talking about, obviously, but everyone else seems to be discussing the change in capacitance as a function of the DC voltage across the cap for various dielectrics. --->Have you appointed yourself to be a net-cop on-topic thread-drift >enforcer, or do you just try to find a reason to whine about anything >that I post?--- Neither; I just find it necessary to correct you when you stray too far from reality, which may account for the frequency of my commentary. --->Got anything useful to say about capacitors? Are you even interested >in capacitors?--- I don't understand your latest ploy - that of painting me as an uninterested bystander - since even you should be able to see that it's not working since if I were disinterested I wouldn't be posting. At all. Poor baby, I think you're just upset because I have no qualms about pointing out either your egregious errors or your peccadilloes. As for the caps themselves, it seems lemonade could be made from lemons in that some use could be made of the parametric quality of the dielectric. For instance, that of a tuning element in an oscillator. Or, perhaps, a voltage tunable filter? A modulator? An attenuator? But - in your quest for beauty and truth - I'm sure you've already thought of those, at least, but remained silent for some good reason beyond the reach of the rest of us mere mortals. Have a nice day. :-) -- JF
Reply by ●May 3, 20132013-05-03
On Fri, 03 May 2013 06:14:49 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:>On Thu, 02 May 2013 17:54:47 -0700, John Larkin ><jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: > >>On Thu, 02 May 2013 18:29:42 -0500, John Fields >><jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote: >> >>>On Thu, 02 May 2013 15:05:54 -0700, John Larkin >>><jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >>> >>>>On Thu, 2 May 2013 12:31:43 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>>>4.7uF 6.3V X5R >>>>>dC = -70% @ 6VDC (!!) >>>>> http://psearch.murata.com/capacitor/product/GRM188R60J475ME19%23.pdf >>>>> >>>>>James >>>> >>>>It's like a tantalum cap rated for X volts, with recommendation to >>>>never use it at X volts. >>>> >>>>(I actually use tantalum caps at rated voltage *if* there's not much >>>>charging current available. Otherwise, X/3 is about right.) >>> >>>--- >>>Actually, I think what's being commented on is the unexpected >>>tolerance of the capacitance of the cap rather than the cap's >>>likelihood of failure as a function of charging current/terminal >>>voltage. >> >>What we're talking about is whether you can, in real life situations, >>actually use an X volt rated cap at X volts. > >--- >That's what _you're_ talking about, obviously, but everyone else seems >to be discussing the change in capacitance as a function of the DC >voltage across the cap for various dielectrics. >--- > >>Have you appointed yourself to be a net-cop on-topic thread-drift >>enforcer, or do you just try to find a reason to whine about anything >>that I post? > >--- >Neither; I just find it necessary to correct you when you stray too >far from reality, which may account for the frequency of my >commentary. >--- > >>Got anything useful to say about capacitors? Are you even interested >>in capacitors? > >--- >I don't understand your latest ploy - that of painting me as an >uninterested bystander - since even you should be able to see that >it's not working since if I were disinterested I wouldn't be posting.What you're interested in is personal conflict, not capacitors.> >At all. > >Poor baby, I think you're just upset because I have no qualms about >pointing out either your egregious errors or your peccadilloes. > >As for the caps themselves, it seems lemonade could be made from >lemons in that some use could be made of the parametric quality of the >dielectric. For instance, that of a tuning element in an oscillator. > >Or, perhaps, a voltage tunable filter? > >A modulator? > >An attenuator? > >But - in your quest for beauty and truth - I'm sure you've already >thought of those, at least, but remained silent for some good reason >beyond the reach of the rest of us mere mortals.I have previously mentioned using caps as the active devices in parametric amplifiers and as the nonlinear elements in pulse-sharpening NLTLs. I don't want to repeat myself too much. Hey, post some circuits using cap nonlinearity. -- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators Custom timing and laser controllers Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Reply by ●May 3, 20132013-05-03
On May 3, 6:14=A0am, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:> On Thu, 02 May 2013 17:54:47 -0700, John Larkin wrote:> As for the caps themselves, it seems lemonade could be made from > lemons in that some use could be made of the parametric quality of the > dielectric. For instance, that of a tuning element in an oscillator. > > Or, perhaps, a voltage tunable filter? > > A modulator? > > An attenuator? > > But - in your quest for beauty and truth - I'm sure you've already > thought of those, at least, but remained silent for some good reason > beyond the reach of the rest of us mere mortals.No, actually, John suggested a parametric oscillator and several other applications. e.g. https://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/msg/1257d50b738= 5046e?hl=3Den -- Cheers, James Arthur
Reply by ●May 3, 20132013-05-03
On Thu, 02 May 2013 12:31:43 -0700, dagmargoodboat wrote:> 4.7uF 6.3V X5R > dC = -70% @ 6VDC (!!) > http://psearch.murata.com/capacitor/product/GRM188R60J475ME19%23.pdfSo I can build a resonant 33-60Hz VFO that only needs a 0-6V command voltage (assuming I can find a 4.7H coil), and you say that's a BAD thing? Think of all the cool microwave techniques that can now be brought down to base band! -- My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook. My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook. Why am I not happy that they have found common ground? Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software http://www.wescottdesign.com
Reply by ●May 3, 20132013-05-03
On 05/03/2013 11:43 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:> On Thu, 02 May 2013 12:31:43 -0700, dagmargoodboat wrote: > >> 4.7uF 6.3V X5R >> dC = -70% @ 6VDC (!!) >> http://psearch.murata.com/capacitor/product/GRM188R60J475ME19%23.pdf > > So I can build a resonant 33-60Hz VFO that only needs a 0-6V command > voltage (assuming I can find a 4.7H coil), and you say that's a BAD thing? > > Think of all the cool microwave techniques that can now be brought down > to base band! >Or if you really want to annoy your neighbors, you could sweep a resonant load across your powerline...
