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Update on 787 Battery Problems

Started by Joe Gwinn March 24, 2013
On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 21:29:21 -0700, the renowned Jeff Liebermann
<jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 21:01:31 -0700 (PDT), >bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: > >(...) >Perhaps a photo might answer a few questions: ><http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/nappi11/imgs/3/d/3db96073.jpg>
He certainly looks like a nutbar. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Spehro Pefhany wrote:
> > On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 21:29:21 -0700, the renowned Jeff Liebermann > <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote: > > >On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 21:01:31 -0700 (PDT), > >bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: > > > >(...) > >Perhaps a photo might answer a few questions: > ><http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/nappi11/imgs/3/d/3db96073.jpg> > > He certainly looks like a nutbar.
The irony! The photo name starts with 3db. Sounds like he's half a load short. ;-) -- Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is enough left over to pay them. Sometimes Friday is just the fifth Monday of the week. :(
On a sunny day (Mon, 25 Mar 2013 21:29:21 -0700) it happened Jeff Liebermann
<jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in <hk82l8po2g22lk2tf584runalig6sb2uv1@4ax.com>:

>On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 21:01:31 -0700 (PDT), >bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: > >(...) >Perhaps a photo might answer a few questions: ><http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/nappi11/imgs/3/d/3db96073.jpg>
Seems like a good chap, pity he ain't black, THEN 0bama would start a re-investigation, press would jump on it, an new judge would be assigned, and that company would be sued for racism. He should use black paint? Maybe he is homosexual? Would that help? :-)
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100406310

Whistleblower Says Dreamliner Batteries Could =91Explode=92
Thursday, 24 Jan 2013 | 7:31 PM ET By: Philip LeBeau
CNBC Auto and Airline Industry Reporter

Michael Leon is adamant about his fear about the use of lithium-ion
batteries on the Boeing 787 Dreamliner.

"These lithium-ion batteries are heat intolerant. Too much heat on
those things, they will go into a thermal runaway, they will explode,
it will be a nightmare," he said.

Article Continues Below
Play VideoSecuraplane Whistleblower on 787 Batteries
CNBC's Phil LeBeau reports on the serious safety concerns for 787
Dreamliner, and shares what former Securaplane employee Michael Leon
had to say about DETAILLeon is a former employee of Securaplane
Technologies in Tucson, Arizona. He was fired in 2007 for repeated
misconduct. He says it was in retaliation for voicing concerns about
the batteries but when he took Securaplane to court, he lost. A
federal administrative court judge ruled in favor of Securaplane.

Today, Securaplane manufactures the charging system for lithium-ion
batteries used on 787 Dreamliners. Its plant in Tucson is one of the
locations visited by investigators from the National Transportation
Safety Board as they try to determine what went wrong with two
Dreamliners earlier this month.

"There is a lot more work to be done before we can determine a cause,"
said Debbie Hersman, Chairman of the NTSB.

(Read More: Still No Timetable for Returning Boeing 787 to Flight)

This Battery 'Just Decided to Explode'

Michael Leon was a senior engineering technician at Securaplane in
2006 conducting tests for the charging units that work with the
lithium-ion batteries in the Dreamliner. Leon said what happened one
day is a scene he will never forget.

"My BCU wasn't running and this lithium-ion battery just decided to
explode," said Leon. "The magnitude of energy that came out of this
battery, I cannot quantify it. I ran out of there and armed myself
with 30 pounds of Halon and I ran back into the inferno. By then all
the walls were on fire."

The fire at Securaplane in 2006 was well documented at the time.
Boeing said it was the result of a test set up improperly, and it was
not a case where a lithium-ion battery simply exploded for no reason.

Securaplane said its charging unit has been successfully tested in the
Dreamliner. It disputes Leon's allegations.

"There was a fire in the facility in 2006 during one test of a
prototype of the battery-charging unit. However, the current Boeing
787 investigation is unrelated to the 2006 fire," said Fiona Greig,
spokeswoman for Securaplane. "There is no connection between the
Dreamliner battery issue and the dismissal of Michael Leon from
Meggitt's US-based subsidiary, Securaplane."

PHOTO
Saul Loeb | AFP | Getty Images
The damaged battery case from a fire aboard a Japan Airlines (JAL)
Boeing 787 Dreamliner airplane at Logan International Airport in
Boston is displayed inside an investigation lab at National
Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) Headquarters in Washington, DC.Ever
since the FAA grounded Boeing's Dreamliner, there have been renewed
questions about the safety of using lithium-ion batteries to provide
power on the 787. The primary concern is the potential flammability of
the batteries.

(Read More: Japan to Investigate Boeing 787 Battery Maker)

Leon fears the worst for the Dreamliner if questions surrounding the
787's lithium-ion batteries are not resolved. "What concerns me is if
this happens on the aircraft and they are flying over the ocean or
something, everybody is going to die," he said.

Still Searching for a Cause

Meanwhile, in Washington, D.C., Hersman said the NTSB is still trying
to determine the exact cause for two Dreamliner batteries catching on
fire. One incident happened after a Japan Airlines 787 landed in
Boston Jan. 7. The other happened during an All Nippon Airways flight
in Japan on Jan. 16. In both cases, nobody was hurt.

"We know that the lithium-ion battery experienced a thermal runaway,
we know that there were short circuits and we know there was a fire,"
Hersman said. What the NTSB does not know at this point is what
exactly prompted the battery malfunctions.

(Read More: 787 Design Flaw Could Be Serious Trouble for Boeing:
Aviation Expert)

In briefing reporters, Hersman declined to say if she would feel
comfortable clearing the Dreamliner to fly again. That decision will
ultimately be made by the Federal Aviation Administration. While
Hersman was careful not to call the Dreamliner unsafe, she made it
clear the significance of battery problems on two Dreamliners cannot
be overstated.

"This is an unprecedented event. We are very concerned," she said. "We
do not expect to see fire events onboard aircraft. This is a very
serious air safety concern and the FAA has taken very serious
action."

People Will Flock to This Plane

One week after the FAA grounded the fleet of 50 Dreamliners currently
in service, the eight airlines flying those planes remain supportive
of Boeing and the eventual return of the 787. That includes United
Airlines, the only U.S. carrier to fly the plane.

(Read More: Airlines Stick With Boeing 787, Despite Problems)

After reporting fourth-quarter earnings Wednesday morning, United
Airlines CEO Jeff Smisek held a conference call with reporters. When
asked if he's worried about customers avoiding flights on the
Dreamliner when the grounding is ultimately lifted, Smisek said no.

"The aircraft is a terrific aircraft and customers love the airplane,"
Smisek said. "I have no doubt that customers will flock back to that
airplane as soon as we get it back up again."

Investors also believe Boeing will eventually get past the Dreamliner
grounding. One week after the FAA banned flights of the 787, shares of
Boeing have gone up =97 a sign Wall Street and investors believe the
Dreamliner will not ground Boeing's profitability.


Many more related links on that web page.

Still No Word When Dreamliner Will Return to Flight
Japan to Investigate Boeing 787 Battery Maker
Hang on to Boeing Stock: Pros
Airlines Stick With Boeing 787, Despite Problems
Boeing Could Be in 'Deep Flavored Yogurt:' Expert
Boeing Triggers Over 450 Flight Cancellations for ANA
Follow Phil LeBeau on Twitter
Securaplane Whistleblower on 787 Batteries


Apparently the historical outcome has put
some wind in Michael Leon's legal sails!  LOL

http://dockets.justia.com/docket/arizona/azdce/4:2013cv00111/760630/

Leon v. Meggitt PLC et al
More Sharing ServicesShare | Share on googlebuzzShare on
emailPlaintiff: Michael A Leon
Defendants: Meggitt PLC, Pacific Scientific Energetic Materials
Company (California) LLC, Boeing, Fiona Grieg, Securaplane
Technologies Incorporated and Unknown Parties

Case Number: 4:2013cv00111
Filed: February 25, 2013

Court: Arizona District Court
Office: Tucson Division Office
County: Pima
Presiding Judge: Cindy K Jorgenson

Nature of Suit: Other - Other Statutes: False Claims Act
Cause: 31:3729 False Claims Act
Jurisdiction: Federal Question
Jury Demanded By: Plaintiff


Access additional case information on PACER
Use the links below to access additional information about this case
on the US Court's PACER system. A subscription to PACER is required.
Access this case on the Arizona District Court's Electronic Court
Filings (ECF) System

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_Claims_Act
>=20 > http://dockets.justia.com/docket/arizona/azdce/4:2013cv00111/760630/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > Leon v. Meggitt PLC et al >=20 > More Sharing ServicesShare | Share on googlebuzzShare on >=20 > emailPlaintiff: Michael A Leon >=20 > Defendants: Meggitt PLC, Pacific Scientific Energetic Materials >=20 > Company (California) LLC, Boeing, Fiona Grieg, Securaplane >=20 > Technologies Incorporated and Unknown Parties >=20 >=20 >=20 > Case Number: 4:2013cv00111 >=20 > Filed: February 25, 2013 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Court: Arizona District Court >=20 > Office: Tucson Division Office >=20 > County: Pima >=20 > Presiding Judge: Cindy K Jorgenson >=20 >=20 >=20 > Nature of Suit: Other - Other Statutes: False Claims Act >=20 > Cause: 31:3729 False Claims Act >=20 > Jurisdiction: Federal Question >=20 > Jury Demanded By: Plaintiff >=20 >=20
This instantiates the kind of thing the English common law wanted to avoid = by prohibiting laypeople from "reading" the law. The False Claims Act is ab= out defrauding the U.S. Government of something it bought and paid for, it = has nothing to do with misrepresenting test results ( which the jackass can= 't prove or comprehend). So unless the government somehow paid for developm= ent testing of the 787, the idiot is misunderstanding "false claims" too li= terally. Looks like the many decades of smoking peyote and weed have finall= y culminated in the idiot becoming a complete medically certifiable imbecil= e.
On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 14:10:52 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

>> >> http://dockets.justia.com/docket/arizona/azdce/4:2013cv00111/760630/ >> >> >> >> Leon v. Meggitt PLC et al >> >> More Sharing ServicesShare | Share on googlebuzzShare on >> >> emailPlaintiff: Michael A Leon >> >> Defendants: Meggitt PLC, Pacific Scientific Energetic Materials >> >> Company (California) LLC, Boeing, Fiona Grieg, Securaplane >> >> Technologies Incorporated and Unknown Parties >> >> >> >> Case Number: 4:2013cv00111 >> >> Filed: February 25, 2013 >> >> >> >> Court: Arizona District Court >> >> Office: Tucson Division Office >> >> County: Pima >> >> Presiding Judge: Cindy K Jorgenson >> >> >> >> Nature of Suit: Other - Other Statutes: False Claims Act >> >> Cause: 31:3729 False Claims Act >> >> Jurisdiction: Federal Question >> >> Jury Demanded By: Plaintiff >> >> > >This instantiates the kind of thing the English common law wanted to avoid by prohibiting laypeople from "reading" the law. The False Claims Act is about defrauding the U.S. Government of something it bought and paid for, it has nothing to do with misrepresenting test results ( which the jackass can't prove or comprehend). So unless the government somehow paid for development testing of the 787, the idiot is misunderstanding "false claims" too literally. Looks like the many decades of smoking peyote and weed have finally culminated in the idiot becoming a complete medically certifiable imbecile.
Another Ian Field or krw ?>:-} ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Jan Panteltje wrote:
> > On a sunny day (Mon, 25 Mar 2013 21:29:21 -0700) it happened Jeff Liebermann > <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in <hk82l8po2g22lk2tf584runalig6sb2uv1@4ax.com>: > > >On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 21:01:31 -0700 (PDT), > >bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: > > > >(...) > >Perhaps a photo might answer a few questions: > ><http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/nappi11/imgs/3/d/3db96073.jpg> > > Seems like a good chap, > pity he ain't black, THEN 0bama would start a re-investigation, > press would jump on it, an new judge would be assigned, > and that company would be sued for racism. > > He should use black paint? > > Maybe he is homosexual? Would that help?
Why would you care, or even bring it up? Are you looking for a playmate? -- Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is enough left over to pay them. Sometimes Friday is just the fifth Monday of the week. :(
On Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:32:19 PM UTC-4, Jim Thompson wrote:

> Another Ian Field or krw ?>:-} >=20 > =09 >=20 > ...Jim Thompson >=20 > --=20 >=20 > | James E.Thompson | mens | >=20 > | Analog Innovations | et | >=20 > | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | >=20 > | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | >=20 > | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | >=20 > | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | >=20 > =20 >=20 > I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
The Mental Deficiency Act of 1913 (U.K.) The bill was passed in 1913 with only three MPs voting against it. It estab= lished the Board of Control for Lunacy and Mental Deficiency to oversee the= implementation of provisions for the care and management of four classes o= f people, a) Idiots. Those so deeply defective as to be unable to guard themselves ag= ainst common physical dangers. b) Imbeciles. Whose defectiveness does not amount to idiocy, but is so pron= ounced that they are incapable of managing themselves or their affairs, or,= in the case of children, of being taught to do so. c) Feeble-minded persons. Whose weakness does not amount to imbecility, yet= who require care, supervision, or control, for their protection or for the= protection of others, or, in the case of children, are incapable of receiv= ing benefit from the instruction in ordinary schools. d) Moral Imbeciles. Displaying mental weakness coupled with strong vicious = or criminal propensities, and on whom punishment has little or no deterrent= effect. I'd say the moral imbeciles have taken over the world.
Even after Leon was out of the picture, how
could Securaplane have that kind of huge
fireball of plant destruction and not insist
on rigorous torture testing with several of
the real Li-Ion batteries?

They had FIVE YEARS after they got rid
of Leon, to investigate and redesign, yet
history shows that Securaplane failed.

The legal phrase
"knew or should have known"
comes to mind.

Somebody posted a link to a failure
analysis report on Li-Ion batteries in
here a month or so back.

It detailed several of the reasons that
Li-Ion batteries fail spontaneously and
spectacularly, whether brand new or
after some amount of physical shock.

It's worse for bigger batteries, either
bigger cells or larger number of cells.

Huge Li-Ion batteries are a disaster
waiting to happen, a confluence of
statistical probabilities compounded.

Anybody reading that report would
have to be amazed that somebody
would design Huge Li-Ion batteries
into any aviation application.

Judging from that same failure analysis
report it appears that even a charging
system that does cell-by-cell monitoring
can't help when any one cell reaches
the point of thermal runaway.

Batteries connected to absolutely nothing
have a history of single cells having thermal
runaway melt downs and igniting the
rest of the pack.

If you tried to design a bomb proof
battery compartment to contain these
things, it would be heavier than if they
had used more conventional batteries
in the first place.

Maybe the battery compartment should
be an "outrigger" or nacelle out on a spar
so that when it burns it can look like they're
roasting a really big weenie on a stick?

Ironically, the very first "Lithium" battery
I ever heard of was used in a self contained
emergency locator used in a Beechcraft
Bonanza ( V tail ) about 1976.
( walkie talkie form factor kept in pocket behind seat ).

Would that have been Li-Ion or some other
"Lithium" battery chemistry back then?
On Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:50:51 AM UTC-4, Greegor wrote:

>=20 > If you tried to design a bomb proof >=20 > battery compartment to contain these >=20 > things, it would be heavier than if they >=20 > had used more conventional batteries >=20 > in the first place. >=20
That's just a bunch of hysteria. Boeing is adapting a containment enclosure= Eagle-Picher developed to enable Cessna to get their business jets sportin= g a LiFePO4 back into the air with FAA approval. They have a demo video of = a 30AH battery explosion and it is a non-event with their container.