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Update on 787 Battery Problems

Started by Joe Gwinn March 24, 2013
tm wrote:
> > NASA's failures makes for a long list and a very high cost to taxpayers. > > Any business run the same way would have long failed.
Name one comparable business. -- Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is enough left over to pay them. Sometimes Friday is just the fifth Monday of the week. :(
On 3/24/2013 11:33 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 21:24:15 -0400, Phil Hobbs > <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote: > >>> Investigators report and details on the burning of the building and >>> the alleged culprit or scapegoat depending on your point of view: >>> <http://cdn.nextgov.com/media/gbc/docs/pdfs_edit/012213bb1a.pdf> >>> <http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=66f459f8-4d6b-452b-961a-6b80dc4830a1> > >> That guy sounds like all the bad-attitude folks I've ever seen on the >> job, and more besides, rolled into one with sprinkles on top. > > Yep. However, there are some unanswered questions which bother me. I > try to look for what such reports leave out, or what's missing: > > 1. On Pg 40, it says > "Leon worked a total of 2,564.19 hours in calendar year 2006." > It doesn't say how many days per year he worked, so I'll make a > guess(tm): > Hrs/day Working days per year > 13 197 > 12 214 > 11 233 > 10 256 > 9 284 > 8 320 > There are about 200 working days per year, or 260 non-weekend days. > If the 2564 hrs figure is true, Leon either was working 6 days per > week continuously, or working long hours on the traditional 200 > working days plan, or his time card was "padded" with extra hours. > Either time schedule is guaranteed to create fatigue from overwork. In > 2006, he was the model employee with exemplary performance. In 2007, > he was the employee from hell. Something changed him, and this might > be why. > > 2. I was wondering how the administration building could burn down, > when presumably the battery testing was done in another building. So > much for accurate news reporting. Apparently, it was all one > building: > <http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/global/story.asp?s=5647597> > <http://azstarnet.com/news/local/multicell-battery-causes--alarm-fire/article_f82af55f-30d9-5998-8ba9-f9acf6bc87fa.html> > "A worker put out the fire, but there was another explosion. > That's when the worker got out." > So, if the first fire was out, what caused the 2nd explosion? Other > batteries? 10,000 sq ft for 50 employees is 200 sq-ft per employee. > That's about right if there's nothing stored on site: > <http://operationstech.about.com/od/startinganoffice/a/OffSpaceCalc.htm> > However, this was a manufacturing business, which presumably stored > parts and finished goods in the building. At a liberal 50% for > storage, that brings it down to 100 sq-ft per employee, which is > seriously cramped. > > Anyone who has ever worked with explosive devices knows better than to > store potentially explosive materials in an assembly or test area. > Securaplane looks too well organized to make such a fundamental safety > mistake. However, the same company also doesn't seem to understand > the need for a system test, so perhaps all the due diligence sprinkled > throughout the report is a smoke screen? Dunno. > > The building looks like mostly concrete block construction and steel > roof. So, what's burning to justify a 3 alarm fire? The > yellow-orange color comes from incandescence of unburnt carbon > particles, which covers too many possibilities. > > Also, the fire started at about 9AM, presumably about an hour after > Leon arrived. Most industrial accidents occur later in the day, when > people are more tired and less careful. > > 3. The chronology of Leon's employment at Securaplane seems too well > documented. There are no holes, no lapses of memory, no > inconsistencies, and little in Leon's favor. Leon appears as evil > incarnate, but that's rarely the case with such employees. Even the > worst employee has their good points, which are suppose to be > documented in such investigations. It's just too neat and clean. > > There are several other oddities that bother me, but as in the three > I've itemized, there's nothing substantial. Just oddities that make > me suspicious of the investigation report.
The fact that he represented himself more or less guarantees that his case wasn't presented well. And being the guy who, rightly or wrongly, got blamed for burning down the building isn't going to help the atmosphere any either. But I don't think that working 50-hour weeks is likely to have that marked an effect. I've done that some years, as probably a lot of SED regulars have. And of course there's another explanation: the guy was a technician, and so probably non-exempt. That means he was making time and a half for all those extra hours, an income increase of roughly 40% vs. a 2000-hour year. The idea that they shipped a safety-critical system on which no realistic testing was done is pretty damning, and the stated rationale for the guy's objection is pretty well nonsense. But it's hard to figure out what went on, due to the CYA behaviour of both sides. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 USA +1 845 480 2058 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message 
news:XJWdnaR1Sq2vVNLMnZ2dnUVZ_oydnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> > tm wrote: >> >> NASA's failures makes for a long list and a very high cost to taxpayers. >> >> Any business run the same way would have long failed. > > > Name one comparable business. > > > -- > > Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is > enough left over to pay them. > > Sometimes Friday is just the fifth Monday of the week. :(
GM?
On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 23:54:23 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>But it's hard to figure out what went on, due to the CYA behaviour of >both sides.
It's actually fairly easy to tell with online videos. Start by watching this TED video: "Pamela Meyer: How to spot a liar" <http://www.ted.com/talks/pamela_meyer_how_to_spot_a_liar.html> Then watch the various Boeing press conferences, video press releases and webcasts. Never mind the one's delivered by a professional PR person or spokesperson. The ones to watch are those delivered by the Boeing managers who really know what's going on behind the curtain, and are probably hiding something. Extra credit if you have voice stress analysis software running. An example is the recent Tokyo press conference <http://787updates.newairplane.com/certification/webcast> (90 min)[1] where several managers did a rather poor job of trying to convince the press that there was no fire, and that it was just "venting batteries producing smoke". Duz this look like venting smoke? <http://www.aviationweek.com/media/images/fullsize/CommercialAviation/Miscellaneous/BatteryFireAftermath-NTSB.jpg> I could mark the times where I think they're lying or covering up something, but I don't want to get into a debate over such subtleties. I don't have the time. Watch the video carefully and decide for yourself if the speaker believes his own rhetoric. More: <http://www.boeing.com/787-media-resource/> <http://www.youtube.com/user/Boeing/videos?query=787> <http://787updates.newairplane.com/> [1] I never made it through to the end of the webcast. If you watch the audience mix, neither did some of those present. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
I found it particularly interesting that Securaplane and
the Labor Department blew off Leon, but to a huge
extent, history has vindicated his claim that the
charging systems were unsafe on aircraft.

I see Leon's complaint to the FAA as similar
to Markopolos complaint to the SEC about Madoff in 2005.

In both cases the regulators blew off the complaints
with monumentally tragic historical results.

Considering the numerous near tragedies I think
the Labor Department and Securaplane owe Leon
a giant public apology and probably more.

As for being a pain in the ass, I applaud Leon.

People SHOULD be a pain in the ass when
they object to producing a product that can
directly cause harm to a large number of people.

He was a prick about how the schematics
didn't match.  He was absolutely right to be.

He saw his work turn into a huge fireball on the
ground.  I bet he had nightmares about the
next fireballs being in the air and killing hundreds.

I'd be amazed if he hasn't been suffering from
daily PTSD like nightmares since 2007, seeing
hundreds of people die in a fireball.


tm schrieb:

> Sure would feel a lot safer if they would throw a few car batteries in > there. I mean, it is just used to start a small APU turbine, right?
Hello, the small APU turbine needs about 7 to 9 kW power for starting. Bye

John Larkin schrieb:

> NASA lost two shuttles by looking away from problems.
Hello, they also lost three astronauts in Apollo 1 by looking away from the problems of a pure oxygen atmosphere on ground. Bye
"Uwe Hercksen" <hercksen@mew.uni-erlangen.de> wrote in message 
news:arb9kfFhpghU1@mid.dfncis.de...
> > > tm schrieb: > >> Sure would feel a lot safer if they would throw a few car batteries in >> there. I mean, it is just used to start a small APU turbine, right? > > Hello, > > the small APU turbine needs about 7 to 9 kW power for starting. > > Bye >
I doubt that is true. 9 kW would be 375 amps at 24 volts. The connectors and wiring on the battery in the pictures do not seem big enough for that amount of current. tm
On Sunday, March 24, 2013 9:36:54 PM UTC-4, Jim Thompson wrote:


> > > Former ICE employees ?:-} > >
http://www.boeing.com/boeing/defense-space/space/gmd/ They'll try to milk this for a cool trillion $ before they're finished... Build a bomb shelter.
On Sunday, March 24, 2013 9:24:15 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:

>=20 > That guy sounds like all the bad-attitude folks I've ever seen on the=20 >=20 > job, and more besides, rolled into one with sprinkles on top. >=20
Oh sure....Securaplane was outright victimized by him. He may even be respo= nsible for sabotaging the BCU, possibly on Airbus payroll, sexually deviant= , may need to be investigated for advocating the violent overthrow of the U= .S. government as well materially contributing to international terrorism, = defrauding the company of overtime not actually worked, stealing company pr= operty, falisfying test data, falsifying government compliance records,...n= o end to all the stuff he did. He was positively manic in his non-stop feve= red malfeasance of every conceivable kind and degree.