On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 12:43:01 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> = wrote:> >> True. It's the clock and status registers below 0Fh that get >> scribbled to constantly. One could split the CMOS function in half, >> with the lower half continuing to be CMOS, while the rest is changed >> to flash. However, that will add front end cost and additional >> complexity, which are not good things. >>=20 > >Wouldn't it be a zero-cost piece of cake to at least write those to hard >disk and in case of finding a blank offer the user to restore from >there? Also, the BIOS is in flash so why not store there instead?The "CMOS" has long ago gone to flash onboard the southbridge chip.> >It would behove the industry to think about this because there is one >major reason why PC sales are slumping: The things became to darn >complicated for ol'Leroy. He does not want to face a pricey Geek Squad >call every time some obtuse "unrecoverable error" has occurred. So he >invests his money into a smart phone instead. Because that's not >complicated. A PC is complicated.I think you really missed the boat on this one. Desktops in the home has hit saturation, but laptops for students and many other travel prone people is still growing. My latest laptop might be able to eat your 2 year old desktop for lunch performance wise; it is a real screamer. ?-)
OT: Can CMOS battery on PC motherboard be hot-swapped?
Started by ●February 24, 2013
Reply by ●March 2, 20132013-03-02
Reply by ●March 2, 20132013-03-02
On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 20:09:27 -0800, josephkk <joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> wrote:>On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 07:47:15 -0700, Jim Thompson ><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > >>On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 10:59:35 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >>wrote: >> >>[snip] >>>> >>> >>>That's odd. Because the PC here is always sent to hibernate and the >>>power is turned off. But it remains connected to 120VAC. Still, this >>>morning the RTC was off again by more than five minutes from yesterday. >>> >>> >>[snip] >> >>RTC's are often rather crappy. >> >>I use Socketwatch from... >> >> http://www.robomagic.com >> >>I'm currently within 50ms of UTC/ >> >> ...Jim Thompson > >You do not need an addon since Win2000/XP they do ntp natively, should be >within 1 ms or better. > >?-)Socketwatch updates the clock once an hour. My statement was technically incorrect... the 50ms was the last correction before I read the clock. Socketwatch is automatic and settable to any interval desired and checks _multiple_ time servers. Where is this Win2000/XP feature that does ntp automatically? ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by ●March 2, 20132013-03-02
josephkk wrote:> On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 12:43:01 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote: > >>> True. It's the clock and status registers below 0Fh that get >>> scribbled to constantly. One could split the CMOS function in half, >>> with the lower half continuing to be CMOS, while the rest is changed >>> to flash. However, that will add front end cost and additional >>> complexity, which are not good things. >>> >> Wouldn't it be a zero-cost piece of cake to at least write those to hard >> disk and in case of finding a blank offer the user to restore from >> there? Also, the BIOS is in flash so why not store there instead? > > The "CMOS" has long ago gone to flash onboard the southbridge chip. >> It would behove the industry to think about this because there is one >> major reason why PC sales are slumping: The things became to darn >> complicated for ol'Leroy. He does not want to face a pricey Geek Squad >> call every time some obtuse "unrecoverable error" has occurred. So he >> invests his money into a smart phone instead. Because that's not >> complicated. A PC is complicated. > > I think you really missed the boat on this one. Desktops in the home has > hit saturation, but laptops for students and many other travel prone > people is still growing. My latest laptop might be able to eat your 2 > year old desktop for lunch performance wise; it is a real screamer. >And after 2h the fun is over, battery exhausted. I do heavy SPICE and a laptop won't last long that way. The HD writes for the RAW files alone are a major burden. But what I meant was PC sales in general, including laptops. Many older folks buy laptops these days because they don't want a space-hogging tower and monitor setup. And it's the saem thing there: Writing setup info that hardly ever changes into voltaile RAM is not smart. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by ●March 2, 20132013-03-02
josephkk wrote:> On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 09:54:28 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote: > >> Jeff Liebermann wrote: >>> On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 15:42:39 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Well, it's already done. So not I am wondering about the laptops. >>>> They've got to have such batteries as well. Maybe time to check those out. >>> Laptops do not have button cell holders. They have wire leads spot >>> welded or soldered to the button battery, a short pair of wires, and a >>> tiny connector. The battery is insulated in shrink tube. The ritual >>> is the same if you want to preserve the settings. Leave the power >>> applied to the laptop and the laptop running. Unplug the old battery >>> and quickly insert the new battery. Most such batteries are easily >>> accessible through a door on the bottom of the laptop, although there >>> are a few abominations where the manufacturer elected to hide the >>> battery in difficult to find location. >>> >> Why does the change have to be quick? Isn't the circuit powered as long >> as the laptop is? Because then one could solder in a new battery and >> re-use the connector instead of shelling out lots of dough for a >> specialty battery plus shipping charges. >> >> Hey, it's nice, this morning the PC showed the correct time again :-) >> >> What I really don't understand why in this day and age they don't write >> the settings into flash. I mean, we even successfully do that on totally >> cheapo uC design. > > I kinda hate be snotty here but, since when is time a constant value? The > battery is to keep the clock running. Replacement cycles should be > similar to most watch batteries. >I meant all the other settings. Think about it a little more: Why does the handbook insist you copy everything in the setup before swapping the battery? They would surely not say that if all you'd lose is date and time (which nowadays cen even be auto-updated from the web). -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by ●March 2, 20132013-03-02
Joerg wrote:>Folks, > >Got a Dell Vostro 200 mini tower with XP on there that seems to be a bit >off in the realtime clock lately. Around five years old so needs a new >3V coin cell on the mobo. > >In order not to lose all the setup stuff, can those CR2032 coin cells be >hot-swapped while the PC is running? > >Of course using ESD straps, being careful and all that.Yes. Just be careful not to drop it on a energized circuit board!
Reply by ●March 2, 20132013-03-02
On Sat, 02 Mar 2013 09:03:38 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:>josephkk wrote: >> On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 12:43:01 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote: >> >>>> True. It's the clock and status registers below 0Fh that get >>>> scribbled to constantly. One could split the CMOS function in half, >>>> with the lower half continuing to be CMOS, while the rest is changed >>>> to flash. However, that will add front end cost and additional >>>> complexity, which are not good things. >>>> >>> Wouldn't it be a zero-cost piece of cake to at least write those to hard >>> disk and in case of finding a blank offer the user to restore from >>> there? Also, the BIOS is in flash so why not store there instead? >> >> The "CMOS" has long ago gone to flash onboard the southbridge chip. >>> It would behove the industry to think about this because there is one >>> major reason why PC sales are slumping: The things became to darn >>> complicated for ol'Leroy. He does not want to face a pricey Geek Squad >>> call every time some obtuse "unrecoverable error" has occurred. So he >>> invests his money into a smart phone instead. Because that's not >>> complicated. A PC is complicated. >> >> I think you really missed the boat on this one. Desktops in the home has >> hit saturation, but laptops for students and many other travel prone >> people is still growing. My latest laptop might be able to eat your 2 >> year old desktop for lunch performance wise; it is a real screamer. >> > >And after 2h the fun is over, battery exhausted. I do heavy SPICE and a >laptop won't last long that way. The HD writes for the RAW files alone >are a major burden.Not enough memory? "Data Compression" not turned on? No ability to "Save Data at Markers Only" ?>:-} But I rarely run simulations on battery... that's what they make power adapters or docking stations for ;-)> >But what I meant was PC sales in general, including laptops. Many older >folks buy laptops these days because they don't want a space-hogging >tower and monitor setup. And it's the saem thing there: Writing setup >info that hardly ever changes into voltaile RAM is not smart.Whine, whine, whine ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by ●March 2, 20132013-03-02
On Sat, 02 Mar 2013 11:46:02 -0600, G. Morgan <sealteam6@osama-is-dead.net> wrote:>Joerg wrote: > >>Folks, >> >>Got a Dell Vostro 200 mini tower with XP on there that seems to be a bit >>off in the realtime clock lately. Around five years old so needs a new >>3V coin cell on the mobo. >> >>In order not to lose all the setup stuff, can those CR2032 coin cells be >>hot-swapped while the PC is running? >> >>Of course using ESD straps, being careful and all that. > > >Yes. Just be careful not to drop it on a energized circuit board!The strap or the battery? The strap is NOT the degree of "conductive" you may think it is. Unless you are dumb enough to have ever or still be using those stupid "wrist watch strap" designs that were metallic. The cloth ones pass tests for years as fully functional. But as for ESD and keeping your products safe from yourself... The paradigm these days, since fields are also important to abate as well, is to simply don an ESD smock and be shielded full body. nothing to drop onto anything, including a charged field. Touch your product chassis or workbench ground before starting. Also, your skin is (typically) very dry (comparatively)and you can accumulate excess electrons (charge) on it with respect to an earth grounded chassis from your clothing. Moisturize your hands and writs, since that is where the smocks connect to you at. Other "charge particulars" Even an ungrounded chassis is already typically at earth grounded (read 'drained') potential, as it was at one time so grounded and not likely to have had charges added to it. It will sink your charge. If you only touch the chassis. You AND the chassis are important to establish being at the same charge. Do not use electrical ground for ESD abatement systems. Earth sink points, as in a hard driven ground rod are preferred. So, FAIAP even an ungrounded system or chassis is considered "at ground potential" because it was recently or still is, from an ESD sinking capacity POV. Of course there are special situations where an earth ground insulated (ungrounded) chassis, like one sitting on a table, could build a charge over the entire chassis with respect to true earth ground, as in a location where magnetic fields from HV presence or corona or even dry air in a lightning storm area. Or just dry air. But for the most part, even an ungrounded chassis is considered "at ground" and represents the same ESD event sinking capacity as a fully grounded system. After many such 'sinking' events, however, one would think that the chassis itself might have a few extra electrons that might want to jump into the earth when that contact was re-established. So back to the smocks. They now have integrated "wrist straps" because they are long sleeved and the sleeves have conduction throughout the smock, and the 'ground lead' gets attached at the left or right pocket, mid smock. No wrist strap required and no fields are ever present when someone touches ground as they approach an ESD controlled workstation, and then hooks up before any examinations or functions utilizing ESD susceptible componentry is performed. It is all about balance. Typically, the 'ground circuit' of any device or card or circuit you would consider touching is the ground level of the surface of your bench top, and YOU yourself. Otherwise, your PC chassis IS the "ESD safe workstation", and you either leave it plugged in, or tie the chassis to the electrical fault line, since you have no ground rod *at* the PC. still, don the smock, and use the PC chassis as your smock grounding point. THAT IS THE IMPORTANT MESSAGE OF THIS POST. For the smocks; Plug in at a std test station and press the button, and the circuit from the ground point, through the ESD attachment cord, to the smock pocket, through the smock, sleeve, and cuff, into your wrist and down through your finger, back to the button. A passed test shows that not only is there a path to ground for your body, but also a 'field shield' over your clothing, all integrated together to keep you from presenting yourself as an ESD event hazard to any device with such a susceptibility. Remember, an ESD event and subsequent failure mode in a product does NOT require contact, and does NOT always immediately exhibit any evidence of the damage it has caused.
Reply by ●March 2, 20132013-03-02
Jim Thompson wrote:> On Sat, 02 Mar 2013 09:03:38 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> > wrote: > >> josephkk wrote: >>> On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 12:43:01 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>> >>>>> True. It's the clock and status registers below 0Fh that get >>>>> scribbled to constantly. One could split the CMOS function in half, >>>>> with the lower half continuing to be CMOS, while the rest is changed >>>>> to flash. However, that will add front end cost and additional >>>>> complexity, which are not good things. >>>>> >>>> Wouldn't it be a zero-cost piece of cake to at least write those to hard >>>> disk and in case of finding a blank offer the user to restore from >>>> there? Also, the BIOS is in flash so why not store there instead? >>> The "CMOS" has long ago gone to flash onboard the southbridge chip. >>>> It would behove the industry to think about this because there is one >>>> major reason why PC sales are slumping: The things became to darn >>>> complicated for ol'Leroy. He does not want to face a pricey Geek Squad >>>> call every time some obtuse "unrecoverable error" has occurred. So he >>>> invests his money into a smart phone instead. Because that's not >>>> complicated. A PC is complicated. >>> I think you really missed the boat on this one. Desktops in the home has >>> hit saturation, but laptops for students and many other travel prone >>> people is still growing. My latest laptop might be able to eat your 2 >>> year old desktop for lunch performance wise; it is a real screamer. >>> >> And after 2h the fun is over, battery exhausted. I do heavy SPICE and a >> laptop won't last long that way. The HD writes for the RAW files alone >> are a major burden. > > Not enough memory? >There is never enough memory.> "Data Compression" not turned on? > > No ability to "Save Data at Markers Only" ?>:-} >With switchers one usually doesn't want to do that. You never know where "fuzz" shows up you want to look at and zoom in.> But I rarely run simulations on battery... that's what they make power > adapters or docking stations for ;-) >I thought that's what they make nuclear power stations for :-) But anyhow, I only use laptops for that if I have to. The heat generated internally ain't too healthy for them.>> But what I meant was PC sales in general, including laptops. Many older >> folks buy laptops these days because they don't want a space-hogging >> tower and monitor setup. And it's the saem thing there: Writing setup >> info that hardly ever changes into voltaile RAM is not smart. > > Whine, whine, whine ;-) >Nah, if something in a consumer or business product got screwed up I call that out. Thanks to Jeff I found that hot-swapping avoids having to re-enter all that. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by ●March 2, 20132013-03-02
Jim Thompson wrote:> > On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 20:09:27 -0800, josephkk > <joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > >On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 07:47:15 -0700, Jim Thompson > ><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > > > >>On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 10:59:35 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> > >>wrote: > >> > >>[snip] > >>>> > >>> > >>>That's odd. Because the PC here is always sent to hibernate and the > >>>power is turned off. But it remains connected to 120VAC. Still, this > >>>morning the RTC was off again by more than five minutes from yesterday. > >>> > >>> > >>[snip] > >> > >>RTC's are often rather crappy. > >> > >>I use Socketwatch from... > >> > >> http://www.robomagic.com > >> > >>I'm currently within 50ms of UTC/ > >> > >> ...Jim Thompson > > > >You do not need an addon since Win2000/XP they do ntp natively, should be > >within 1 ms or better. > > > >?-) > > Socketwatch updates the clock once an hour. My statement was > technically incorrect... the 50ms was the last correction before I > read the clock. > > Socketwatch is automatic and settable to any interval desired and > checks _multiple_ time servers. > > Where is this Win2000/XP feature that does ntp automatically?Click on the clock in the taskbar to open the date & time. Click the right tab.
Reply by ●March 2, 20132013-03-02
On Sat, 02 Mar 2013 17:46:44 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:> >Jim Thompson wrote: >> >> On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 20:09:27 -0800, josephkk >> <joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> >> >On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 07:47:15 -0700, Jim Thompson >> ><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >> > >> >>On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 10:59:35 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >> >>wrote: >> >> >> >>[snip] >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>That's odd. Because the PC here is always sent to hibernate and the >> >>>power is turned off. But it remains connected to 120VAC. Still, this >> >>>morning the RTC was off again by more than five minutes from yesterday. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>[snip] >> >> >> >>RTC's are often rather crappy. >> >> >> >>I use Socketwatch from... >> >> >> >> http://www.robomagic.com >> >> >> >>I'm currently within 50ms of UTC/ >> >> >> >> ...Jim Thompson >> > >> >You do not need an addon since Win2000/XP they do ntp natively, should be >> >within 1 ms or better. >> > >> >?-) >> >> Socketwatch updates the clock once an hour. My statement was >> technically incorrect... the 50ms was the last correction before I >> read the clock. >> >> Socketwatch is automatic and settable to any interval desired and >> checks _multiple_ time servers. >> >> Where is this Win2000/XP feature that does ntp automatically? > > > Click on the clock in the taskbar to open the date & time. Click the >right tab.I don't see how you can set that to every 15 minutes... looks like it's once per week or upon reboot. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
