On 26 Feb 2013 09:34:26 GMT, Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:>> IIRC, there is a similar phone line set-up over on that half. > >half=hemisphere?Comprehenssion problems, 11,000km boy? Sheesh.
OT: Can CMOS battery on PC motherboard be hot-swapped?
Started by ●February 24, 2013
Reply by ●February 26, 20132013-02-26
Reply by ●February 26, 20132013-02-26
On 2/25/2013 8:37 PM, SoothSayer wrote:> > Your claim of 20ms is falsely based. Do it 25 times, and I'll bet you > get 25 different offsets from the real. So more likely plus or minus > about 80ms. You could probably get closer by hand synching to your phone > with the mouse click. >Are you that "always wrong" asshole? I plotted the data. I know the results. The accuracy depends on your system. The RTC stability, temperature/tempco, system load, etc. That is why I said you have to plot the error relative to time of day. Learn something. Here is a good source of NTP tracking tools:> http://www.satsignal.eu/software/net.htm#NTPmonitorNext time educate yourself before you post nonsense.
Reply by ●February 26, 20132013-02-26
While I'm busy bitch slapping this moron, why you do nowadays is use a GPSDO, which I also have though don't bother to use for system time. I doubt anyone uses a modem. If you don't GPSDO, you can use a cellular network for a time sync.
Reply by ●February 26, 20132013-02-26
miso wrote:> > On 2/25/2013 8:37 PM, SoothSayer wrote: > > > > > Your claim of 20ms is falsely based. Do it 25 times, and I'll bet you > > get 25 different offsets from the real. So more likely plus or minus > > about 80ms. You could probably get closer by hand synching to your phone > > with the mouse click. > > > > Are you that "always wrong" asshole?THE DIMBULB SCORECARD A Monkey <AMonkey@notyourbeastofburdon.org> Abbey Somebody <abnormal@castlefrankenstein.org> All InTheChi <Hostyle@magicregion.org> AM <thisthatandtheother@beherenow.org> AnimalMagic <AnimalMagic@petersbackyard.org> Archimedes' Lever <OneBigLever@InfiniteSeries.Org> AtTheEndofMyRope <AtTheEndofMyRope@AtTheEndofMyRope.org> AwlSome Auger <AwlSomeAuger@BuyOneGetOneFree.org> BaltoTopDog <Balto@gnomealaskaiscold.org> BarnCat <BarnCat@keepingthevermindownatthebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> 10 Bart! <B@rt_The_Sheriff_Is_A_Nig**!.org> BigBalls <BiggestBallsOfAll@thebigbarattheendoftheuniverse.org> BillyPilgrim <BillyPilgrim@thebigbarattheendoftheuniverse.org> BlindBaby <BlindMelonChitlin@wellnevergetthatonethealbumcover.org> Booong... Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum... 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Floyd <Heywood@thebarattheendofthemonolith.org> 30 DreadKnot <DreadKnot@GodandHisWrath.org> Dread Pirate Roberts <DreadPirateRoberts@iamnotlefthanded.org> DrParnassus <DrParnassus@hereforlongtime.org> Duke <DukeNukem@girlsgirlsgirls.org> Duke Nukem FatBytestard <FatBytestard@somewheronyourharddrive.org> FigureItOut <LocusPocus@magicregion.org> FullMettleJacket <GettingCloserToMyHome@somewherenearthewhitelight.org> FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor <FunkShunPoignter@yermomma.org> FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor <FunkShunPointer@yermomma.org> 40 George Orr <GergoOrr@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> GoldIntermetallicEmbrittlement <GoldIntermetallicEmbrittlement@youdontknowjack.org> GotchaDumbfuck! <BigGrins@inyourdreams.org> Hattori Hanzo <OutintheSnow@billsbackyard.org> HectorZeroni <hectorzeroni@holeyplaces.org> Hellequin <Hellequin@yourpipesaremypipes.org> Herbert John \Jackie\" Gleason" <BufordTJustice@Texarkanacops.gov> HiggsField <higgdfield@whutthableapduyoukno.org> IAmTheSlime <TheSlimeFromYourVideo@oozingacrossyourlivingroomfloor.org> ItchyGato <Itchygato@catswithcritters.org> 50 ItsASecretDummy <secretasianman@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> Jupiter Jaq <JupiterJaq@BuyOneGetOneFree.org> Kai <kai@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> Klinger <Justtheguywhofillsinthepotholes@justnorthofsouthkorea.org> LargeMarge <LargeMarge@thetentwoposition.org> Lewis Redmond <LewisRedmond@abettermanthanyou.org> life imitates life <pasticcio@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> Lil Red Riding In The Hood <lilredridinginthehood@grandmashouseattheendoftheuniverse.org> lurch <lurch@yourangcousinitslibrary.org> MadManMoon <TheWholePlanetIsMine@hereandnow.org> 60 MakeNoAttemptToAdjustYourSet <DoNotAttemptToAdjustYourSet@anytime.org> MarkDatter@disdatanddeudder.org MassiveProng@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org <MassiveProng@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> MeowSayTongue <MeowSayTongue@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> MettleBeerStolid <MettleBeerStolid@somewherenearthewaterpipe.org> Mortimer Brewster Mr.Eko <ekointhedirt@lostisland.org> Mr. Haney <mrhaney@thebarattheendofthefarmroad.org> MrTallyman <MrTallyman@BananaCountersRUs.org> My Name Is Tsu How Do You Do <Tsu@hereforlongtime.org> 70 Mycelium <myceliumgrows@underyourshrooms.org> Mycelium <mycelium@thematrixattheendofthemushroomstem.org> Naomi Price <NaomiPrice@guesswhatisforsale.org> Neanderthal <dance@gottafindawomanrighton.org> Notably Stationed <NotableStation@inlife.org> Numer0 Un0 <Numer0Un0@abettermanthanyou.org> Nunya <jack_shephard@cox.net> OutsideObserver <Stand And Deliver@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> Pasticcio Perenis <Perenis@hereforlongtime.org> 80 Pieyed Piper <pieyedPiper@thebongshopattheendoftheuniverse.org> Phat Bytestard <PhatBytestard@getinmahharddrive.org> PowderedToastMan <PowderedToastMan@YouEeediot.org> Pueblo Dancer <Kachina@AllHopiIsLost.org> RoyLFuchs <RoyLFuchs@urfargingicehole.org> scorpius <scorpius@thewormholethatemptiesontheothersideoftheuniverse.org> SkyPilot <somewhere@theedgeofspace.org> SomeKindOfWonderful <SomeKindOfWonderful@allthegirlsintheworldbeware.org> Son of a Sea Cook <NotaBrewster@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> SoothSayer <SaySooth@TheMonastery.org> 90 Spurious Response <SpuriousResponse@cleansignal.org> StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> Sum Ting Wong <SumTingWong@thebarattheendoftheVenusianLightnigBolt.org> Sum Ting Wong <SumTingWong@thebarattheendoftheVenusianLightnigBoltmonolith.org> SuspendedInGaffa <suspendedingaffa@kateshouse.org> The Great Attractor <SuperM@ssiveBlackHoleAtTheCenterOfTheMilkyWayGalaxy.org> TheJoker <LeonardooftheLarcenousLaugh@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> The Keeper of the Key to The Locks <TheLoner@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> The Last Mimsy <mimsy@TheOtherSideoftheLookingGlass.org> The Loner <TheLoner@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> 100 The_Giant_Rat_of_Sumatra <GeorgeTirebiter@drmemory.org> George Leroy Tirebiter TheGlimmerMan <justaglimmer@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> TheKraken <ReachUpandSuckYouDowntotheDepths@yup.org> TheQuickBrownFox <thequickbrownfox@overthelazydog.org> TralfamadoranJetPilot <BillyPilgrim@thebigbarattheendoftheuniverse.org> TunnelRat <TunnelRat@yourpipesaremypipes.org> TutAmongUs@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org <TutAmongUs@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> Tutankhamun UltimatePatriot <UltimatePatriot@thebestcountry.org> 110 UnKempt <UnKempt@HoardersRUs.org> UpGrade <UpGrade@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> UpYerNose <UpYerNose@witarubbahose.org> ValleyGirl <LuvYerNailz@LikeIWouldGiveIt.Comeon> VelCrowPhly <VelCrowPhly@thetiethatbindsUall.org> VioletaPachydermata <PurpleElephant@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> WallyWallWhackr <wallywallwhackr@thematrixattheendofthemushroomstem.org> WarmUnderbelly <WarmUnderbellyOfAmerica@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> WoolyBully <WoolyBully@arcticicemasses.org> Zarathustra 120 100WattDarkSucker <100WattDarkSucker@thebigbarattheendoftheuniverse.org>
Reply by ●February 27, 20132013-02-27
On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 14:51:32 -0800, miso <miso@sushi.com> wrote:>While I'm busy bitch slapping this moron, why you do nowadays is use a >GPSDO, which I also have though don't bother to use for system time. > >I doubt anyone uses a modem. If you don't GPSDO, you can use a cellular >network for a time sync.Yep. CDMA time sync: <http://www.beaglesoft.com/celsynhome.htm> <http://www.beaglesoft.com/celsynreceiver.htm> Sometime in the last century, I decided to separate the errors caused by motherboard crystal clock oscillator drift from those produced by missed timer interrupts. I substituted TCXO oscillators for both the 14.318 clock oscillator, and the 40MHz system clock oscillator. I don't recall if it was a PII or PIII motherboard. After running a burning test on the motherboard, it lost about 10 seconds per day. Conclusion... clock oscillator drift isn't the controlling factor. My next experiment was a WWVB (60KHz) receiver to provide time sync when the propagation was suitable, which was usually about 3-6AM. This worked just fine but had problems with RFI from the computer trashing the receive signal. Due to business and medical issues, I ran out of time to finish my testing. Also, my software sucked. There are commercial version available today and in my never humble opinion, is the way it should be done for home and laptop computers. With Wake-on-LAN currently being high fashion[1], it would be possible to update the clock when the computah is turned off, eliminating the RFI problem. <http://www.beaglesoft.com/radsynreceiver.htm> [1] Amazingly, Wake-on-LAN is required to be enabled for Energy Star 5.0 compliance, which is a great way to waste standby power. If your standby laptop battery life seems less than expected, turn it off. <http://support.lenovo.com/en_US/diagnose-and-fix/detail.page?DocID=HT002261> Some BIOS settings are also involved, such as WOL only with AC power only. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Reply by ●March 2, 20132013-03-02
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 07:47:15 -0700, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:>On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 10:59:35 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >wrote: > >[snip] >>>=20 >> >>That's odd. Because the PC here is always sent to hibernate and the >>power is turned off. But it remains connected to 120VAC. Still, this >>morning the RTC was off again by more than five minutes from yesterday. >> >> >[snip] > >RTC's are often rather crappy. > >I use Socketwatch from... > > http://www.robomagic.com > >I'm currently within 50ms of UTC/ > =09 > ...Jim ThompsonYou do not need an addon since Win2000/XP they do ntp natively, should be within 1 ms or better. ?-)
Reply by ●March 2, 20132013-03-02
On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 20:09:27 -0800, josephkk <joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> wrote:>On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 07:47:15 -0700, Jim Thompson ><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > >>On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 10:59:35 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >>wrote: >> >>[snip] >>>> >>> >>>That's odd. Because the PC here is always sent to hibernate and the >>>power is turned off. But it remains connected to 120VAC. Still, this >>>morning the RTC was off again by more than five minutes from yesterday. >>> >>> >>[snip] >> >>RTC's are often rather crappy. >> >>I use Socketwatch from... >> >> http://www.robomagic.com >> >>I'm currently within 50ms of UTC/ >> >> ...Jim Thompson > >You do not need an addon since Win2000/XP they do ntp natively, should be >within 1 ms or better. > >?-)ntp does NOT get you "within 1ms or better". And getting that is happenstance, not accurate, repeatable utility. That is why each time you do it, you get a different offset. You would first require the aptitude to see where the error gets introduced to begin with, however.
Reply by ●March 2, 20132013-03-02
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 09:54:28 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> = wrote:>Jeff Liebermann wrote: >> On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 15:42:39 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >> wrote: >>=20 >>> Well, it's already done. So not I am wondering about the laptops. >>> They've got to have such batteries as well. Maybe time to check those=out.>>=20 >> Laptops do not have button cell holders. They have wire leads spot >> welded or soldered to the button battery, a short pair of wires, and a >> tiny connector. The battery is insulated in shrink tube. The ritual >> is the same if you want to preserve the settings. Leave the power >> applied to the laptop and the laptop running. Unplug the old battery >> and quickly insert the new battery. Most such batteries are easily >> accessible through a door on the bottom of the laptop, although there >> are a few abominations where the manufacturer elected to hide the >> battery in difficult to find location. >>=20 > >Why does the change have to be quick? Isn't the circuit powered as long >as the laptop is? Because then one could solder in a new battery and >re-use the connector instead of shelling out lots of dough for a >specialty battery plus shipping charges. > >Hey, it's nice, this morning the PC showed the correct time again :-) > >What I really don't understand why in this day and age they don't write >the settings into flash. I mean, we even successfully do that on totally >cheapo uC design.I kinda hate be snotty here but, since when is time a constant value? = The battery is to keep the clock running. Replacement cycles should be similar to most watch batteries. ?-)
Reply by ●March 2, 20132013-03-02
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 10:39:04 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:> >Drivel: Many years ago, I decided that I wanted GPS accuracy on my >office Unix server. I took the NEMA 183 output from an old Garmin 65 >GPS, parsed the data with a shell script, and reset the PC clock >according to the GPS time. What I forgot to include was a sanity >check on the data. When the receiver lost sync, the GPS would produce >00:00:00 etc as the current time. It took a while to clean up my log >files and recover from that mistake. This is another reason why I >don't do much programming. > >>What I really don't understand why in this day and age they don't write >>the settings into flash. I mean, we even successfully do that on =totally>>cheapo uC design. > >Here's what's stored in the CMOS: ><http://www.bioscentral.com/misc/cmosmap.htm> >Note that the first few bytes are the RTC current time and date (but >not the TZ time zone). This info gets written to the CMOS chip once >every second. If that were flash memory with an optimistic 100,000 >write/erase cycles, the flash chip would be dead in several days.Way back in the early days of XTs you actually find the logic that segregated those addresses from actual memory to the clock chip. Been that way ever since. ?-)
Reply by ●March 2, 20132013-03-02
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 11:32:15 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:> >>> Here's what's stored in the CMOS: >>> <http://www.bioscentral.com/misc/cmosmap.htm> >>> Note that the first few bytes are the RTC current time and date (but >>> not the TZ time zone). This info gets written to the CMOS chip once >>> every second. If that were flash memory with an optimistic 100,000 >>> write/erase cycles, the flash chip would be dead in several days. > >>Not really. Almost everything beyond 0Fh gets written once and then =left>>alone the next five years of so. Ok, maybe someone buys a new drive and >>enters that. This would cause two write cycles to that location in five >>years. > >True. It's the clock and status registers below 0Fh that get >scribbled to constantly. One could split the CMOS function in half, >with the lower half continuing to be CMOS, while the rest is changed >to flash. However, that will add front end cost and additional >complexity, which are not good things.Actually that change has already occurred. And as stated before the few bottom addresses do not access CMOS/FLASH but the clock chip (portion) itself. Check the specifications for a south bridge chip. ?-)
