On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 14:27:24 -0700, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:>On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 17:02:13 -0700, Jim Thompson ><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > >>I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption >>process hides the node sequence. So please revisit... >> >>http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/HC4046_SUB.zip >> >>for a corrected version. >> >>This is just the VCO portion for now, and just the variable part; >>suitable only for LTspice. >> >>Please try it out and let me know your comments, etc. >> >>Since I'm new to working with LTspice, please send me any error >>messages, so I can refine my skills >:-} >> >> >What upsets me most is that it's a copy of my 1965 design, the MC4024 >(bipolar devices, oscillator core is PECL, TTL output). And they >bungled the copy :-( Unlike my original version, the CMOS version >dumps the capacitor is an uncontrolled manner, and the thresholds and >current mirrors are abominations of "engineering". > > ...Jim ThompsonAre bungled abominations more difficult to model? RL
74HC4046 Model Development
Started by ●October 20, 2012
Reply by ●October 21, 20122012-10-21
Reply by ●October 21, 20122012-10-21
On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 17:47:38 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:>On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 14:27:24 -0700, Jim Thompson ><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > >>On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 17:02:13 -0700, Jim Thompson >><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >> >>>I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption >>>process hides the node sequence. So please revisit... >>> >>>http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/HC4046_SUB.zip >>> >>>for a corrected version. >>> >>>This is just the VCO portion for now, and just the variable part; >>>suitable only for LTspice. >>> >>>Please try it out and let me know your comments, etc. >>> >>>Since I'm new to working with LTspice, please send me any error >>>messages, so I can refine my skills >:-} >>> >>> >>What upsets me most is that it's a copy of my 1965 design, the MC4024 >>(bipolar devices, oscillator core is PECL, TTL output). And they >>bungled the copy :-( Unlike my original version, the CMOS version >>dumps the capacitor is an uncontrolled manner, and the thresholds and >>current mirrors are abominations of "engineering". >> >> ...Jim Thompson > >Are bungled abominations more difficult to model? > >RLYes ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by ●October 21, 20122012-10-21
On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 17:02:13 -0700, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:>I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption >process hides the node sequence. So please revisit... > >http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/HC4046_SUB.zip > >for a corrected version. > >This is just the VCO portion for now, and just the variable part; >suitable only for LTspice. > >Please try it out and let me know your comments, etc. > >Since I'm new to working with LTspice, please send me any error >messages, so I can refine my skills >:-} >I really do hope someone will try out the model and let me know how it simulates... rather than blathering that it's encrypted. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by ●October 22, 20122012-10-22
Am 22.10.2012 01:28, schrieb Jim Thompson:> > I really do hope someone will try out the model and let me know how it > simulates... rather than blathering that it's encrypted. > > ...Jim Thompson >No. if you don�t want to give you won�t receive. You want to earn money with it, then spend some money for testers.
Reply by ●October 22, 20122012-10-22
On 10/22/2012 07:26 AM, G�nter Haarmann wrote:> Am 22.10.2012 01:28, schrieb Jim Thompson: > >> >> I really do hope someone will try out the model and let me know how it >> simulates... rather than blathering that it's encrypted. >> >> ...Jim Thompson >> > > No. if you don�t want to give you won�t receive. > > You want to earn money with it, then spend some money for testers.I dunno. Making the model will probably help some folks, if they don't expect its horrible nonlinearity to be horrible in quite the same way as the production parts. (For a variety of reasons, I'm also in favour of people being able to make a living.) Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net
Reply by ●October 22, 20122012-10-22
On Oct 22, 10:04=A0am, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:> On 10/22/2012 07:26 AM, G=FCnter Haarmann wrote: > > > Am 22.10.2012 01:28, schrieb Jim Thompson: > > >> I really do hope someone will try out the model and let me know how it > >> simulates... rather than blathering that it's encrypted. > > >> ...Jim Thompson > > > No. if you don=B4t want to give you won=B4t receive. > > > You want to earn money with it, then spend some money for testers. > > I dunno. =A0Making the model will probably help some folks, if they don't > expect its horrible nonlinearity to be horrible in quite the same way as > the production parts. =A0(For a variety of reasons, I'm also in favour of > people being able to make a living.) > > Cheers > > Phil Hobbs > > -- > Dr Philip C D Hobbs > Principal Consultant > ElectroOptical Innovations LLC > Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics > > 160 North State Road #203 > Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 > > hobbs at electrooptical dot nethttp://electrooptical.netHi Guys, OK I just finished test9ng the difference between the TI and NXP versions of the VCO in the HC4046. The good news (for me) is there's hardly any difference between the two. (This is with a VCO 'bias' resistor of 4.02k ohm.) (And four different caps, 2.7nF, 7.4nF, 22 nF, and 66nF +/-5%.) The supply voltage was 6.36 Volts. Here's the data for the TI version. First column is the VCO voltage (in volts) and the next four are the VCO frequencies in kHz. (Frequencies only measured on a digital 'scope so don't believe all those decimal places :^) George H. 0.9082 127.5 46 13.91 5.056 1.0114 141.87 51.197 15.475 5.621 1.2868 180.11 65.027 19.667 7.147 1.444 202.49 73.105 22.108 8.0316 1.7823 251.05 90.717 27.467 9.978 2.0047 283.96 102.664 31.093 11.295 2.3282 333.68 120.78 36.616 13.299 2.6532 386.36 140.04 42.496 15.448 2.9967 445.53 161.81 49.174 17.887 3.2618 494.67 179.89 54.719 19.9 3.6809 579.032 211.26 64.377 23.43 3.945 637.65 233.1 71.126 25.896 4.1987 698.34 255.92 78.196 28.48 4.5543 791.99 291.198 89.157 32.49 4.8743 888.35 327.83 100.57 36.7 5.063 951.81 352.09 108.17 39.5 5.2847 1036.2 384.52 118.37 43.26 5.508 1143.4 425.94 131.41 48.07 5.714 1370.4 512.235 158.65 58.195
Reply by ●October 22, 20122012-10-22
On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 13:26:13 +0200, G�nter Haarmann <none@none.de> wrote:>Am 22.10.2012 01:28, schrieb Jim Thompson: > >> >> I really do hope someone will try out the model and let me know how it >> simulates... rather than blathering that it's encrypted. >> >> ...Jim Thompson >> > >No. if you don�t want to give you won�t receive. > >You want to earn money with it, then spend some money for testers.I GAVE you a model. I didn't charge for it. I encrypted it to conceal my "tricks of the trade". I know my model works under LTspice... http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/74HC4046_VCO_SUB_SIM_LT.pdf my submission was simply to make sure it also works after encryption. Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass whether you use the model or not. I find the 74HC4046 a piece-a-crap, a rather poor CMOS copy of my original design, the quite linear MC4024 of nearly 50 years ago. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by ●October 22, 20122012-10-22
On 22/10/2012 16:42, Jim Thompson wrote:> > Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass whether you use the model or > not. I find the 74HC4046 a piece-a-crap, a rather poor CMOS copy of > my original design, the quite linear MC4024 of nearly 50 years ago. > > ...Jim Thompson >I have found that the variation of parameters the 74HC4046 from one manufacturer to another is such that I cannot agree with such a sweeping statement. I found the Philips/NXP variant a very well behaved device, whereas others had/have poor VCO control linearity etc. -- Mike Perkins Video Solutions Ltd www.videosolutions.ltd.uk
Reply by ●October 22, 20122012-10-22
On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:08:24 +0100, Mike Perkins <spam@spam.com> wrote:>On 22/10/2012 16:42, Jim Thompson wrote: >> >> Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass whether you use the model or >> not. I find the 74HC4046 a piece-a-crap, a rather poor CMOS copy of >> my original design, the quite linear MC4024 of nearly 50 years ago. >> >> ...Jim Thompson >> > >I have found that the variation of parameters the 74HC4046 from one >manufacturer to another is such that I cannot agree with such a sweeping >statement. I found the Philips/NXP variant a very well behaved device, >whereas others had/have poor VCO control linearity etc.I'm just going from reports here, primarily Phil Hobbs' bad experiences. ALL of the data sheets look wonderful ;-) I can certainly think of ways to improve it, particularly the current mirrors, though a complete architecture change could easily eliminate lots of the non-linearity issues. Whoever rolled the CMOS copy totally missed an important point, don't dump the capacitor into a substrate diode. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by ●October 22, 20122012-10-22
On 10/22/2012 9:04 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:> On 10/22/2012 07:26 AM, G�nter Haarmann wrote: >> Am 22.10.2012 01:28, schrieb Jim Thompson: >> >>> >>> I really do hope someone will try out the model and let me know how it >>> simulates... rather than blathering that it's encrypted. >>> >>> ...Jim Thompson >>> >> >> No. if you don�t want to give you won�t receive. >> >> You want to earn money with it, then spend some money for testers. > > I dunno. Making the model will probably help some folks, if they don't > expect its horrible nonlinearity to be horrible in quite the same way as > the production parts. (For a variety of reasons, I'm also in favor of > people being able to make a living.) > > Cheers > > Phil Hobbs >Someone needs to make a living... and pay the taxes for the 47% that don't! Or someone needs to work to pay the taxes required to fill the welfare kitty with that 1.032 trillion dollars every year. The government says we have 46 million people in poverty in 2012. If you divide 1.032 trillion by 46 million that is $22,434 per person. Minimum wage is about $15,000. Hmm... Mikek
