Forums

1mm packet of photons

Started by amdx September 6, 2012
On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 10:05:41 -0700, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 10:55:14 -0500, amdx <amdx@knology.net> wrote: > >>On 9/7/2012 9:27 AM, John Larkin wrote: >>> On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 14:29:15 -0500, amdx <amdx@knologynotthis.net> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> Here's a TED video of pulsed laser used in photography. >>>> Watch it all, because at some point you might say, no that can't be >>>> right, but then he explains it. >>>> >>>> 11 minutes. >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_748924&feature=iv&hd=1&src_vid=SoHeWgLvlXI&v=mfgsQX78hg8#t=12s >>>> >>>> Mikek >>> >>> I don't think it really takes a trillion frames per second. It's a >>> stroboscopic thing, like a sampling oscilloscope. I think they use a >>> streak tube and some sort of shutter to scan the other axis. I didn't >>> watch the entire video, but I didn't see an explanation of how it's >>> actually done. I suspect it takes a while to build up one of those >>> videos. >>> >>> >> >> Exactly right John, That's why I said "watch it all" because it is >>not as it seems. He does explain it. >> Mikek > >I did a quick pan and didn't see it. I'll look again when I have time. > >I actually have a use for a streak camera. They are super-expensive, >so if this gets to production we may look to buy the tube somewhere >and make the rest ourselves. That would be fun. > >Anybody here have experience with streak tubes?
I don't know the term "streak tubes", but I built a "streak camera" somewhere around 1960-61 to record fast MHD events. It was a mirror rotating at ~20,000RPM writing onto a film strip, with a magnetic pickup to synchronize initiation of "event" to mirror position. BTW, I'm puzzled by Edgerton's apple shot being labeled 1964... that happened while I was a student there... 1958-1962. I was in his "gallery" hallway nearly every day, and it was a featured photo, along with his famous milk drop shot. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
John Larkin wrote:
> > On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 10:55:14 -0500, amdx <amdx@knology.net> wrote: > > >On 9/7/2012 9:27 AM, John Larkin wrote: > >> On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 14:29:15 -0500, amdx <amdx@knologynotthis.net> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Hi all, > >>> Here's a TED video of pulsed laser used in photography. > >>> Watch it all, because at some point you might say, no that can't be > >>> right, but then he explains it. > >>> > >>> 11 minutes. > >>> > >>> > >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_748924&feature=iv&hd=1&src_vid=SoHeWgLvlXI&v=mfgsQX78hg8#t=12s > >>> > >>> Mikek > >> > >> I don't think it really takes a trillion frames per second. It's a > >> stroboscopic thing, like a sampling oscilloscope. I think they use a > >> streak tube and some sort of shutter to scan the other axis. I didn't > >> watch the entire video, but I didn't see an explanation of how it's > >> actually done. I suspect it takes a while to build up one of those > >> videos. > >> > >> > > > > Exactly right John, That's why I said "watch it all" because it is > >not as it seems. He does explain it. > > Mikek > > I did a quick pan and didn't see it. I'll look again when I have time. > > I actually have a use for a streak camera. They are super-expensive, > so if this gets to production we may look to buy the tube somewhere > and make the rest ourselves. That would be fun. > > Anybody here have experience with streak tubes? >
I put in for ~$100k for one of those gorgeous Hamamatsu streak cameras about 2006ish, to support my 200 THz antenna work, but didn't get it. Even a mechanical streak camera can do some pretty cool stuff: 100k rpm mirror, 10 metre distance, 10 um resolution = 50 ps time resolution. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 845-480-2058 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net
On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 18:03:25 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>John Larkin wrote: >> >> On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 10:55:14 -0500, amdx <amdx@knology.net> wrote: >> >> >On 9/7/2012 9:27 AM, John Larkin wrote: >> >> On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 14:29:15 -0500, amdx <amdx@knologynotthis.net> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Hi all, >> >>> Here's a TED video of pulsed laser used in photography. >> >>> Watch it all, because at some point you might say, no that can't be >> >>> right, but then he explains it. >> >>> >> >>> 11 minutes. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_748924&feature=iv&hd=1&src_vid=SoHeWgLvlXI&v=mfgsQX78hg8#t=12s >> >>> >> >>> Mikek >> >> >> >> I don't think it really takes a trillion frames per second. It's a >> >> stroboscopic thing, like a sampling oscilloscope. I think they use a >> >> streak tube and some sort of shutter to scan the other axis. I didn't >> >> watch the entire video, but I didn't see an explanation of how it's >> >> actually done. I suspect it takes a while to build up one of those >> >> videos. >> >> >> >> >> > >> > Exactly right John, That's why I said "watch it all" because it is >> >not as it seems. He does explain it. >> > Mikek >> >> I did a quick pan and didn't see it. I'll look again when I have time. >> >> I actually have a use for a streak camera. They are super-expensive, >> so if this gets to production we may look to buy the tube somewhere >> and make the rest ourselves. That would be fun. >> >> Anybody here have experience with streak tubes? >> > >I put in for ~$100k for one of those gorgeous Hamamatsu streak cameras >about 2006ish, to support my 200 THz antenna work, but didn't get it. > >Even a mechanical streak camera can do some pretty cool stuff: 100k rpm >mirror, 10 metre distance, 10 um resolution = 50 ps time resolution. >
200 ps would work for what we have in mind. It would be cool of we could fold the optical path into a shoebox sized thing. I could slave all our system timing off the mirror rotation. Beryllium mirrors? Some of the NMR solids probes spin a sample at 8 KHz, which is half a million RPM. LLNL used to use spinning-mirror drum cameras for nuclear shots. They had a bunch of air-motor cameras spinning asynchronously, and they just waited until all the phase angles coincided, then they fired a shot. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com http://www.highlandtechnology.com Precision electronic instrumentation Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators Custom laser drivers and controllers Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro acquisition and simulation
John Larkin wrote:
> > On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 18:03:25 -0400, Phil Hobbs > <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote: > > >John Larkin wrote: > >> > >> On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 10:55:14 -0500, amdx <amdx@knology.net> wrote: > >> > >> >On 9/7/2012 9:27 AM, John Larkin wrote: > >> >> On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 14:29:15 -0500, amdx <amdx@knologynotthis.net> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> Hi all, > >> >>> Here's a TED video of pulsed laser used in photography. > >> >>> Watch it all, because at some point you might say, no that can't be > >> >>> right, but then he explains it. > >> >>> > >> >>> 11 minutes. > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_748924&feature=iv&hd=1&src_vid=SoHeWgLvlXI&v=mfgsQX78hg8#t=12s > >> >>> > >> >>> Mikek > >> >> > >> >> I don't think it really takes a trillion frames per second. It's a > >> >> stroboscopic thing, like a sampling oscilloscope. I think they use a > >> >> streak tube and some sort of shutter to scan the other axis. I didn't > >> >> watch the entire video, but I didn't see an explanation of how it's > >> >> actually done. I suspect it takes a while to build up one of those > >> >> videos. > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > Exactly right John, That's why I said "watch it all" because it is > >> >not as it seems. He does explain it. > >> > Mikek > >> > >> I did a quick pan and didn't see it. I'll look again when I have time. > >> > >> I actually have a use for a streak camera. They are super-expensive, > >> so if this gets to production we may look to buy the tube somewhere > >> and make the rest ourselves. That would be fun. > >> > >> Anybody here have experience with streak tubes? > >> > > > >I put in for ~$100k for one of those gorgeous Hamamatsu streak cameras > >about 2006ish, to support my 200 THz antenna work, but didn't get it. > > > >Even a mechanical streak camera can do some pretty cool stuff: 100k rpm > >mirror, 10 metre distance, 10 um resolution = 50 ps time resolution. > > > > 200 ps would work for what we have in mind. It would be cool of we > could fold the optical path into a shoebox sized thing. I could slave > all our system timing off the mirror rotation. Beryllium mirrors? > > Some of the NMR solids probes spin a sample at 8 KHz, which is half a > million RPM. > > LLNL used to use spinning-mirror drum cameras for nuclear shots. They > had a bunch of air-motor cameras spinning asynchronously, and they > just waited until all the phase angles coincided, then they fired a > shot. >
Streak tubes are a huge win if you can get one. Even a Tek 7104 tube can do 10 cm in 300 ps, so even a 500-um beam width translates into 15 ps resolution as a streak camera. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 845-480-2058 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net
On 9/7/2012 10:05 AM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 10:55:14 -0500, amdx<amdx@knology.net> wrote: > >> On 9/7/2012 9:27 AM, John Larkin wrote: >>> On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 14:29:15 -0500, amdx<amdx@knologynotthis.net> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> Here's a TED video of pulsed laser used in photography. >>>> Watch it all, because at some point you might say, no that can't be >>>> right, but then he explains it. >>>> >>>> 11 minutes. >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_748924&feature=iv&hd=1&src_vid=SoHeWgLvlXI&v=mfgsQX78hg8#t=12s >>>> >>>> Mikek >>> >>> I don't think it really takes a trillion frames per second. It's a >>> stroboscopic thing, like a sampling oscilloscope. I think they use a >>> streak tube and some sort of shutter to scan the other axis. I didn't >>> watch the entire video, but I didn't see an explanation of how it's >>> actually done. I suspect it takes a while to build up one of those >>> videos. >>> >>> >> >> Exactly right John, That's why I said "watch it all" because it is >> not as it seems. He does explain it. >> Mikek > > I did a quick pan and didn't see it. I'll look again when I have time. > > I actually have a use for a streak camera. They are super-expensive, > so if this gets to production we may look to buy the tube somewhere > and make the rest ourselves. That would be fun. > > Anybody here have experience with streak tubes?
I worked with the hamamatsu streak camera, C5680 series with these modules: blanking unit C5680 sweep unit M5675 (also M5676 sweep unit) streak camera C5680 digital camera C4742-95 cheers, Jamie
> >
On Sun, 09 Sep 2012 15:48:10 -0700, Jamie M <jmorken@shaw.ca> wrote:

>On 9/7/2012 10:05 AM, John Larkin wrote: >> On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 10:55:14 -0500, amdx<amdx@knology.net> wrote: >> >>> On 9/7/2012 9:27 AM, John Larkin wrote: >>>> On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 14:29:15 -0500, amdx<amdx@knologynotthis.net> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> Here's a TED video of pulsed laser used in photography. >>>>> Watch it all, because at some point you might say, no that can't be >>>>> right, but then he explains it. >>>>> >>>>> 11 minutes. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_748924&feature=iv&hd=1&src_vid=SoHeWgLvlXI&v=mfgsQX78hg8#t=12s >>>>> >>>>> Mikek >>>> >>>> I don't think it really takes a trillion frames per second. It's a >>>> stroboscopic thing, like a sampling oscilloscope. I think they use a >>>> streak tube and some sort of shutter to scan the other axis. I didn't >>>> watch the entire video, but I didn't see an explanation of how it's >>>> actually done. I suspect it takes a while to build up one of those >>>> videos. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Exactly right John, That's why I said "watch it all" because it is >>> not as it seems. He does explain it. >>> Mikek >> >> I did a quick pan and didn't see it. I'll look again when I have time. >> >> I actually have a use for a streak camera. They are super-expensive, >> so if this gets to production we may look to buy the tube somewhere >> and make the rest ourselves. That would be fun. >> >> Anybody here have experience with streak tubes? > >I worked with the hamamatsu streak camera, C5680 series with these >modules: > >blanking unit C5680 > >sweep unit M5675 >(also M5676 sweep unit) > >streak camera C5680 > >digital camera C4742-95 > > >cheers, >Jamie > > >> >>
Sounds expensive! The streak camera will dominate the cost of our proposed system. -- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators Custom timing and laser controllers Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
On 9/7/2012 3:03 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> John Larkin wrote: >> >> On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 10:55:14 -0500, amdx<amdx@knology.net> wrote: >> >>> On 9/7/2012 9:27 AM, John Larkin wrote: >>>> On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 14:29:15 -0500, amdx<amdx@knologynotthis.net> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> Here's a TED video of pulsed laser used in photography. >>>>> Watch it all, because at some point you might say, no that can't be >>>>> right, but then he explains it. >>>>> >>>>> 11 minutes. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_748924&feature=iv&hd=1&src_vid=SoHeWgLvlXI&v=mfgsQX78hg8#t=12s >>>>> >>>>> Mikek >>>> >>>> I don't think it really takes a trillion frames per second. It's a >>>> stroboscopic thing, like a sampling oscilloscope. I think they use a >>>> streak tube and some sort of shutter to scan the other axis. I didn't >>>> watch the entire video, but I didn't see an explanation of how it's >>>> actually done. I suspect it takes a while to build up one of those >>>> videos. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Exactly right John, That's why I said "watch it all" because it is >>> not as it seems. He does explain it. >>> Mikek >> >> I did a quick pan and didn't see it. I'll look again when I have time. >> >> I actually have a use for a streak camera. They are super-expensive, >> so if this gets to production we may look to buy the tube somewhere >> and make the rest ourselves. That would be fun. >> >> Anybody here have experience with streak tubes? >> > > I put in for ~$100k for one of those gorgeous Hamamatsu streak cameras > about 2006ish, to support my 200 THz antenna work, but didn't get it. > > Even a mechanical streak camera can do some pretty cool stuff: 100k rpm > mirror, 10 metre distance, 10 um resolution = 50 ps time resolution.
Hi, The mechanical mirror wouldn't have as much gain as a streak camera does , maybe it is better to spin a linear APD array? cheers, Jamie
> > Cheers > > Phil Hobbs >
Jamie M wrote:
> > On 9/7/2012 3:03 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote: > > John Larkin wrote: > >> > >> On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 10:55:14 -0500, amdx<amdx@knology.net> wrote: > >> > >>> On 9/7/2012 9:27 AM, John Larkin wrote: > >>>> On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 14:29:15 -0500, amdx<amdx@knologynotthis.net> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Hi all, > >>>>> Here's a TED video of pulsed laser used in photography. > >>>>> Watch it all, because at some point you might say, no that can't be > >>>>> right, but then he explains it. > >>>>> > >>>>> 11 minutes. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_748924&feature=iv&hd=1&src_vid=SoHeWgLvlXI&v=mfgsQX78hg8#t=12s > >>>>> > >>>>> Mikek > >>>> > >>>> I don't think it really takes a trillion frames per second. It's a > >>>> stroboscopic thing, like a sampling oscilloscope. I think they use a > >>>> streak tube and some sort of shutter to scan the other axis. I didn't > >>>> watch the entire video, but I didn't see an explanation of how it's > >>>> actually done. I suspect it takes a while to build up one of those > >>>> videos. > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> Exactly right John, That's why I said "watch it all" because it is > >>> not as it seems. He does explain it. > >>> Mikek > >> > >> I did a quick pan and didn't see it. I'll look again when I have time. > >> > >> I actually have a use for a streak camera. They are super-expensive, > >> so if this gets to production we may look to buy the tube somewhere > >> and make the rest ourselves. That would be fun. > >> > >> Anybody here have experience with streak tubes? > >> > > > > I put in for ~$100k for one of those gorgeous Hamamatsu streak cameras > > about 2006ish, to support my 200 THz antenna work, but didn't get it. > > > > Even a mechanical streak camera can do some pretty cool stuff: 100k rpm > > mirror, 10 metre distance, 10 um resolution = 50 ps time resolution. > > Hi, > > The mechanical mirror wouldn't have as much gain as a streak camera does > , maybe it is better to spin a linear APD array? > > cheers, > Jamie > > > > > Cheers > > > > Phil Hobbs > >
Assuming the optical resolution is better than the slit width (which requires a beam of a certain size, eventually limiting the mirror RPM), the time resolution is delta_T = (L_s)/(2*Omega_m * L_L) where Omega_m is the mirror rotation speed in rad/s, L_s is the slit width L_L is the optical lever arm length The factor of 2 comes from the law of reflection (the reflection rotates twice as fast as the mirror). Now 100k rpm is 1.05*10**4 rad/s, so with a 10-m lever and a 10-um slit, you get delta_T = 1E-5/(2.1e4*10) = 48 ps. This is of course rather unrealistic, because getting that resolution from 10 m away requires a beam width on the mirror of the order of 50 cm. You could do it with a 100 um slit and a 5-cm beam, which would get you ~500 ps resolution--not bad for an all-mechanical contraption. Moving the detector doesn't help you because it's the relative speed of the focal spot and the detector that matters. With 10k rad/s and 10 m, the spot crosses the detector at 200 km/s, which is pretty hard to get with a solid object! Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 845-480-2058 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net