Forums

MLCC soldering and dielectric cracking damage

Started by Mr.CRC October 23, 2011
On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:38:57 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

>Our field failure rates are healthy multiples of Bellcore >calculations. Ceramic cap failures are rare.
None of your production boards are hand soldered, you retarded twit. This discussion is about the damage which can occur within the terminations of MLCCs when attached manually, which you are 100% clueless about... obviously.
Mr.CRC wrote:

> Hi: > > I frequently assemble PCBs by hand soldering MLCCs of the 0603, 0805, > 1206, and a few larger ones (and other parts too--as those > capacitor-only circuits aren't much fun!). > > My hand soldering technique is to use 0.015" wire solder, > 1. first adding a tiny bit of solder to one pad. > 2. Then I flux both pads, and tack the part to the pad with the added > solder. > 3. Sometimes at this point, I put my tweezers on top of the part to > create a downward force, and reflow the tacked joint to make the part > seat squarely on the pads.
I do a lot of these, on small-volume projects. I have been doing this for probably close to 15 years. I have encountered no more than 3 or 4 cracked capacitors in this time, and I have used up several 10,000 part reels and many smaller reels. I put a dab of solder on one pad, place the component gently with tweezers while reflowing the already-soldered pad, and then solder the other pad. I don't use flux, other than what is in the flux-cored solder wire.
> The question is this: How much should I worry about thermal stress > cracking or otherwise damaging the MLCC dielectrics? > > I have heard that using a pre-heated PCB, and soldering the MLCCs both > joints at once using hot air is the preferred approach, to avoid damage. > > Also, that MLCCs with thinner dielectrics are more susceptible, like > high values in small sizes.
Yes, the smaller the caps, the more fragile. I don't use anything smaller than 0805 just because they are harder to deal with. I have straightened warped boards with the parts on them without damage, but that is really asking for trouble. But, I never had any problem with it, either. Jon
On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:48:55 -0700, TheGlimmerMan
<justaglimmer@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

>On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:38:57 -0700, John Larkin ><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: > >>Our field failure rates are healthy multiples of Bellcore >>calculations. Ceramic cap failures are rare. > > None of your production boards are hand soldered, you retarded twit.
As I noted, some are. John
"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message 
news:nlo9a7pd96q3nctj0teifeviq27r0u5qj5@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:48:55 -0700, TheGlimmerMan > <justaglimmer@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote: > >>On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:38:57 -0700, John Larkin >><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >> >>>Our field failure rates are healthy multiples of Bellcore >>>calculations. Ceramic cap failures are rare. >> >> None of your production boards are hand soldered, you retarded twit. > > As I noted, some are. > > John >
Black list the idiot John. I only see his crap when people reply to him. ;)
On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:22:48 +0800, "Dennis" <jon.dough@ithemorgue.com>
wrote:

> >"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message >news:nlo9a7pd96q3nctj0teifeviq27r0u5qj5@4ax.com... >> On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:48:55 -0700, TheGlimmerMan >> <justaglimmer@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote: >> >>>On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:38:57 -0700, John Larkin >>><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >>> >>>>Our field failure rates are healthy multiples of Bellcore >>>>calculations. Ceramic cap failures are rare. >>> >>> None of your production boards are hand soldered, you retarded twit. >> >> As I noted, some are. >> >> John >> > >Black list the idiot John. I only see his crap when people reply to him. ;) >
As if a fucktard like you matters.
On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:22:48 +0800, "Dennis"
<jon.dough@ithemorgue.com> wrote:

> >"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message >news:nlo9a7pd96q3nctj0teifeviq27r0u5qj5@4ax.com... >> On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:48:55 -0700, TheGlimmerMan >> <justaglimmer@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote: >> >>>On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:38:57 -0700, John Larkin >>><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >>> >>>>Our field failure rates are healthy multiples of Bellcore >>>>calculations. Ceramic cap failures are rare. >>> >>> None of your production boards are hand soldered, you retarded twit. >> >> As I noted, some are. >> >> John >> > >Black list the idiot John. I only see his crap when people reply to him. ;) >
I usually do, but he said some silly stuff about soldering caps. John
On 24/10/2011 04:51, Jon Elson wrote:
> Mr.CRC wrote: > >> Hi: >> >> I frequently assemble PCBs by hand soldering MLCCs of the 0603, 0805, >> 1206, and a few larger ones (and other parts too--as those >> capacitor-only circuits aren't much fun!). >> >> My hand soldering technique is to use 0.015" wire solder, >> 1. first adding a tiny bit of solder to one pad. >> 2. Then I flux both pads, and tack the part to the pad with the added >> solder. >> 3. Sometimes at this point, I put my tweezers on top of the part to >> create a downward force, and reflow the tacked joint to make the part >> seat squarely on the pads. > I do a lot of these, on small-volume projects. I have been doing this > for probably close to 15 years. I have encountered no more than > 3 or 4 cracked capacitors in this time, and I have used up several > 10,000 part reels and many smaller reels. > > I put a dab of solder on one pad, place the component gently with tweezers > while reflowing the already-soldered pad, and then solder the other pad. > I don't use flux, other than what is in the flux-cored solder wire. > >> The question is this: How much should I worry about thermal stress >> cracking or otherwise damaging the MLCC dielectrics? >> >> I have heard that using a pre-heated PCB, and soldering the MLCCs both >> joints at once using hot air is the preferred approach, to avoid damage. >> >> Also, that MLCCs with thinner dielectrics are more susceptible, like >> high values in small sizes. > Yes, the smaller the caps, the more fragile. I don't use anything > smaller than 0805 just because they are harder to deal with. > > I have straightened warped boards with the parts on them without > damage, but that is really asking for trouble. But, I never had > any problem with it, either. > > Jon > >
I use a very similar technique (to Jon's) with pointy stainless steel tweezers and I'll do parts down to 0402. Over the last 10 years I have put down between 5000 to 10000 capacitors an have temperature cycled many of the boards. I have never seen a short circuit cap (since I guess about 50% of caps are decoupling I might have missed some open circuits). Recently I've done quite a few bigger ceramic caps like 22uF 16V in 1210 or 1206 packages - these are about 2mm thick but I've seen no problems. I only do prototypes and very small runs (like perhaps 4 boards) like this. The suggestion that you can solder an 0603 part touching only the pad and not the parts sounds like boards with very large pads or theory not yet contaminated by contact with reality. Michael Kellett
"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message 
news:urv9a7tqav37835ple7sor2o41flq3t3bl@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:22:48 +0800, "Dennis" > <jon.dough@ithemorgue.com> wrote: > >> >>"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in >>message >>news:nlo9a7pd96q3nctj0teifeviq27r0u5qj5@4ax.com... >>> On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:48:55 -0700, TheGlimmerMan >>> <justaglimmer@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote: >>> >>>>On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:38:57 -0700, John Larkin >>>><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>>Our field failure rates are healthy multiples of Bellcore >>>>>calculations. Ceramic cap failures are rare. >>>> >>>> None of your production boards are hand soldered, you retarded twit. >>> >>> As I noted, some are. >>> >>> John >>> >> >>Black list the idiot John. I only see his crap when people reply to him. >>;) >> > > I usually do, but he said some silly stuff about soldering caps. > > John >
The work enviroments I've been in I've always hand soldered SMD parts mainly for prototypes but also some low vol production. Never had a problem (thats not to say that will always be the case!)
On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 23:03:38 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:22:48 +0800, "Dennis" ><jon.dough@ithemorgue.com> wrote: > >> >>"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message >>news:nlo9a7pd96q3nctj0teifeviq27r0u5qj5@4ax.com... >>> On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:48:55 -0700, TheGlimmerMan >>> <justaglimmer@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote: >>> >>>>On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:38:57 -0700, John Larkin >>>><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>>Our field failure rates are healthy multiples of Bellcore >>>>>calculations. Ceramic cap failures are rare. >>>> >>>> None of your production boards are hand soldered, you retarded twit. >>> >>> As I noted, some are. >>> >>> John >>> >> >>Black list the idiot John. I only see his crap when people reply to him. ;) >> > >I usually do, but he said some silly stuff about soldering caps. > >John
What I said is exactly the same thing the manufacturers will tell you. And I DID say that observation of such a part will appear to show no difference, which is also what the makers will tell you. You are the silly one, john. I spoke about real physical attributes of the devices. You belched bullshit based on your personal build stats, which are based on zero true observance of any such condition. In other words Johnny, you were then are now, were then, and always have been too fucking dumb to know that it happens, much less why.
On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:47:19 +0800, "Dennis" <jon.dough@ithemorgue.com> wrote:

> >"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message >news:urv9a7tqav37835ple7sor2o41flq3t3bl@4ax.com... >> On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:22:48 +0800, "Dennis" >> <jon.dough@ithemorgue.com> wrote: >> >>> >>>"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in >>>message >>>news:nlo9a7pd96q3nctj0teifeviq27r0u5qj5@4ax.com... >>>> On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:48:55 -0700, TheGlimmerMan >>>> <justaglimmer@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>>On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:38:57 -0700, John Larkin >>>>><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Our field failure rates are healthy multiples of Bellcore >>>>>>calculations. Ceramic cap failures are rare. >>>>> >>>>> None of your production boards are hand soldered, you retarded twit. >>>> >>>> As I noted, some are. >>>> >>>> John >>>> >>> >>>Black list the idiot John. I only see his crap when people reply to him. >>>;) >>> >> >> I usually do, but he said some silly stuff about soldering caps. >> >> John >> > >The work enviroments I've been in I've always hand soldered SMD parts mainly >for prototypes but also some low vol production. Never had a problem (thats >not to say that will always be the case!)
Repair, and debug, also. What do you expect from AlwaysWrong?