Hi, There are a few free/open source PCB autorouters available however using them has been quite difficult due to a lack of interchange standards. There are at least three available such as MUCS-PCB, gEDA PCB (includes autorouter), and the Topological Autorouter (experimental also part of gEDA PCB). The QAutorouter provides a solution of building the Specctra DSN import and SES export facilities and a common API for "plug in" autorouter engine modules. Probably the best PCB autorouter for hobbyists at the moment is FreeRouting.net which supports Specctra DSN import and SES export. It is a very capable and effective PCB autorouter. The KiCAD, gEDA, FreePCB, and Eagle EDA tool sets all support Specctra DSN export and SES import and can use FreeRouting.net. However, while FreeRouting.net is free to use (as in beer) it is still commercial software so hobbyist support is limited in that the source code is not available. A truly free/open source PCB autorouter has been needed by the hobbyist EDA community for quite some time. If you are skilled software developer and familiar with EDA this would be a great opportunity to help out. Thanks in advance for your time and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, please see the original announcement on KiCAD-users mailing list. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi All, I'm working on a project here http://sourceforge.net/projects/qautorouter/ It is an auto-router that is written in C++ on Qt application framework, reads/writes specctra file format and uses a plug-in style of interface for the router engines. It is very alpha at this stage, I have much of the UI, file I/O, and the plug-in API operational. I am working on a "Simple Router" plug-in at the moment that is implementing a simplified version of the expanding box algorithm. The Simple Router will be used as a sort of template for debugging the plugin-api and as a template for developing more sophisticated plug-ins. Toporouter would be a good one. In any case, it would be great to get a few other people on-board, a developer or two that is quite proficient in C++ would be very helpful, some hands-on with Qt would help a lot too. Someone to look after the Windows(tm) and Mac OS-X build and release would be very helpful. Someone to help with packaging; windows installer, Mac OSX installer, and linux .deb, .rpm packages would be helpful as well. If you're interested, please just send me a little about what you can contribute, and your sourceforge id. Kind Regards, Mike Sharkey -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJOEAlnAAoJEEzVYN3s3Af7lqIIALSmDzQGxAjYBIcZsAcjw++D gw8LQAvUytUY+4xX6kVkdeA+wjvywZw0+OZKoZXeOjvY39ZNMayKvzWN4zBoUjbc YMSx9wZ7j6QYU9EBh25hpyGmMg97L5XubY/6zRV/xkvSs9qm8/gMyayBBVBU0sMM 43blOHuELx5WYsFS2uyz/WLWE8vdpxWnDpsqfxOvp2aaRZzzEzvuP5rnj7XTN9KV TCFe+vT/auZZIEfKzGe9lYLMHgBpccBCr0IYOiRRS3LuCytTTnoscTdzXCiTX1sE iNBJqbMHjrb64oOs+6P4x10gOSQB8rSRmFOlpQG8puNk7ZRh6ggFxgRTzYM3oZc= =abfU -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Free/Open Source PCB autorouter in development; help wanted
Started by ●July 9, 2011
Reply by ●July 9, 20112011-07-09
On Sat, 9 Jul 2011 09:09:16 -0700 (PDT), lynchaj <lynchaj@yahoo.com> wrote:>Hi, > >There are a few free/open source PCB autorouters available however >using them has been quite difficult due to a lack of interchange >standards. There are at least three available such as MUCS-PCB, gEDA >PCB (includes autorouter), and the Topological Autorouter >(experimental also part of gEDA PCB). > >The QAutorouter provides a solution of building the Specctra DSN >import and SES export facilities and a common API for "plug in" >autorouter engine modules. > >Probably the best PCB autorouter for hobbyists at the moment is >FreeRouting.net which supports Specctra DSN import and SES export. It >is a very capable and effective PCB autorouter. The KiCAD, gEDA, >FreePCB, and Eagle EDA tool sets all support Specctra DSN export and >SES import and can use FreeRouting.net. However, while >FreeRouting.net is free to use (as in beer) it is still commercial >software so hobbyist support is limited in that the source code is not >available. > >A truly free/open source PCB autorouter has been needed by the >hobbyist EDA community for quite some time. If you are skilled >software developer and familiar with EDA this would be a great >opportunity to help out. Thanks in advance for your time and have a >nice day! > >Andrew Lynch > >PS, please see the original announcement on KiCAD-users mailing list. > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >Hi All, > >I'm working on a project here >http://sourceforge.net/projects/qautorouter/ > >It is an auto-router that is written in C++ on Qt application >framework, >reads/writes specctra file format and uses a plug-in style of >interface >for the router engines. > >It is very alpha at this stage, I have much of the UI, file I/O, and >the >plug-in API operational. I am working on a "Simple Router" plug-in at >the moment that is implementing a simplified version of the expanding >box algorithm. The Simple Router will be used as a sort of template >for >debugging the plugin-api and as a template for developing more >sophisticated plug-ins. Toporouter would be a good one. > >In any case, it would be great to get a few other people on-board, a >developer or two that is quite proficient in C++ would be very >helpful, >some hands-on with Qt would help a lot too. > >Someone to look after the Windows(tm) and Mac OS-X build and release >would be very helpful. > >Someone to help with packaging; windows installer, Mac OSX installer, >and linux .deb, .rpm packages would be helpful as well. > >If you're interested, please just send me a little about what you can >contribute, and your sourceforge id. > >Kind Regards, > >Mike Sharkey > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) >Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ > >iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJOEAlnAAoJEEzVYN3s3Af7lqIIALSmDzQGxAjYBIcZsAcjw++D >gw8LQAvUytUY+4xX6kVkdeA+wjvywZw0+OZKoZXeOjvY39ZNMayKvzWN4zBoUjbc >YMSx9wZ7j6QYU9EBh25hpyGmMg97L5XubY/6zRV/xkvSs9qm8/gMyayBBVBU0sMM >43blOHuELx5WYsFS2uyz/WLWE8vdpxWnDpsqfxOvp2aaRZzzEzvuP5rnj7XTN9KV >TCFe+vT/auZZIEfKzGe9lYLMHgBpccBCr0IYOiRRS3LuCytTTnoscTdzXCiTX1sE >iNBJqbMHjrb64oOs+6P4x10gOSQB8rSRmFOlpQG8puNk7ZRh6ggFxgRTzYM3oZc= >=abfU >-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----All the times I've seen an autorouter used, it did horrible layouts. Between the extensive setup, and the extensive cleanup, they haven't been worth it. Besides, routing and designing pours is the fun part. John
Reply by ●July 9, 20112011-07-09
On Sat, 09 Jul 2011 10:20:05 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:>On Sat, 9 Jul 2011 09:09:16 -0700 (PDT), lynchaj <lynchaj@yahoo.com> >wrote: > >>Hi, >> >>There are a few free/open source PCB autorouters available however >>using them has been quite difficult due to a lack of interchange >>standards. There are at least three available such as MUCS-PCB, gEDA >>PCB (includes autorouter), and the Topological Autorouter >>(experimental also part of gEDA PCB). >> >>The QAutorouter provides a solution of building the Specctra DSN >>import and SES export facilities and a common API for "plug in" >>autorouter engine modules. >> >>Probably the best PCB autorouter for hobbyists at the moment is >>FreeRouting.net which supports Specctra DSN import and SES export. It >>is a very capable and effective PCB autorouter. The KiCAD, gEDA, >>FreePCB, and Eagle EDA tool sets all support Specctra DSN export and >>SES import and can use FreeRouting.net. However, while >>FreeRouting.net is free to use (as in beer) it is still commercial >>software so hobbyist support is limited in that the source code is not >>available. >> >>A truly free/open source PCB autorouter has been needed by the >>hobbyist EDA community for quite some time. If you are skilled >>software developer and familiar with EDA this would be a great >>opportunity to help out. Thanks in advance for your time and have a >>nice day! >> >>Andrew Lynch >> >>PS, please see the original announcement on KiCAD-users mailing list. >> >>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>Hash: SHA1 >> >>Hi All, >> >>I'm working on a project here >>http://sourceforge.net/projects/qautorouter/ >> >>It is an auto-router that is written in C++ on Qt application >>framework, >>reads/writes specctra file format and uses a plug-in style of >>interface >>for the router engines. >> >>It is very alpha at this stage, I have much of the UI, file I/O, and >>the >>plug-in API operational. I am working on a "Simple Router" plug-in at >>the moment that is implementing a simplified version of the expanding >>box algorithm. The Simple Router will be used as a sort of template >>for >>debugging the plugin-api and as a template for developing more >>sophisticated plug-ins. Toporouter would be a good one. >> >>In any case, it would be great to get a few other people on-board, a >>developer or two that is quite proficient in C++ would be very >>helpful, >>some hands-on with Qt would help a lot too. >> >>Someone to look after the Windows(tm) and Mac OS-X build and release >>would be very helpful. >> >>Someone to help with packaging; windows installer, Mac OSX installer, >>and linux .deb, .rpm packages would be helpful as well. >> >>If you're interested, please just send me a little about what you can >>contribute, and your sourceforge id. >> >>Kind Regards, >> >>Mike Sharkey >> >>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >>Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) >>Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ >> >>iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJOEAlnAAoJEEzVYN3s3Af7lqIIALSmDzQGxAjYBIcZsAcjw++D >>gw8LQAvUytUY+4xX6kVkdeA+wjvywZw0+OZKoZXeOjvY39ZNMayKvzWN4zBoUjbc >>YMSx9wZ7j6QYU9EBh25hpyGmMg97L5XubY/6zRV/xkvSs9qm8/gMyayBBVBU0sMM >>43blOHuELx5WYsFS2uyz/WLWE8vdpxWnDpsqfxOvp2aaRZzzEzvuP5rnj7XTN9KV >>TCFe+vT/auZZIEfKzGe9lYLMHgBpccBCr0IYOiRRS3LuCytTTnoscTdzXCiTX1sE >>iNBJqbMHjrb64oOs+6P4x10gOSQB8rSRmFOlpQG8puNk7ZRh6ggFxgRTzYM3oZc= >>=abfU >>-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > >All the times I've seen an autorouter used, it did horrible layouts. >Between the extensive setup, and the extensive cleanup, they haven't >been worth it.Autorouters for chips work pretty well. There is still cleanup to do on critical nets but processors (or most FPGA designs) wouldn't be possible without auto-placement/routing. At the board level it seems they're of a lot less utility, perhaps because boards aren't "regular" and there is a lot to be gained by intuition. It could also be that there is a lot of the design that isn't stated in the schematic. I have a pretty good idea what a board should look like long before placement starts. The layout guy often seems to be in disagreement, though. ;-) He often doesn't even read the hints in the schematic ("layout notes"). :-(> Besides, routing and designing pours is the fun part.Is that why you have the brat do it?
Reply by ●July 9, 20112011-07-09
On Sat, 09 Jul 2011 12:53:12 -0500, "krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:>On Sat, 09 Jul 2011 10:20:05 -0700, John Larkin ><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: > >>On Sat, 9 Jul 2011 09:09:16 -0700 (PDT), lynchaj <lynchaj@yahoo.com> >>wrote: >> >>>Hi, >>> >>>There are a few free/open source PCB autorouters available however >>>using them has been quite difficult due to a lack of interchange >>>standards. There are at least three available such as MUCS-PCB, gEDA >>>PCB (includes autorouter), and the Topological Autorouter >>>(experimental also part of gEDA PCB). >>> >>>The QAutorouter provides a solution of building the Specctra DSN >>>import and SES export facilities and a common API for "plug in" >>>autorouter engine modules. >>> >>>Probably the best PCB autorouter for hobbyists at the moment is >>>FreeRouting.net which supports Specctra DSN import and SES export. It >>>is a very capable and effective PCB autorouter. The KiCAD, gEDA, >>>FreePCB, and Eagle EDA tool sets all support Specctra DSN export and >>>SES import and can use FreeRouting.net. However, while >>>FreeRouting.net is free to use (as in beer) it is still commercial >>>software so hobbyist support is limited in that the source code is not >>>available. >>> >>>A truly free/open source PCB autorouter has been needed by the >>>hobbyist EDA community for quite some time. If you are skilled >>>software developer and familiar with EDA this would be a great >>>opportunity to help out. Thanks in advance for your time and have a >>>nice day! >>> >>>Andrew Lynch >>> >>>PS, please see the original announcement on KiCAD-users mailing list. >>> >>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>>Hash: SHA1 >>> >>>Hi All, >>> >>>I'm working on a project here >>>http://sourceforge.net/projects/qautorouter/ >>> >>>It is an auto-router that is written in C++ on Qt application >>>framework, >>>reads/writes specctra file format and uses a plug-in style of >>>interface >>>for the router engines. >>> >>>It is very alpha at this stage, I have much of the UI, file I/O, and >>>the >>>plug-in API operational. I am working on a "Simple Router" plug-in at >>>the moment that is implementing a simplified version of the expanding >>>box algorithm. The Simple Router will be used as a sort of template >>>for >>>debugging the plugin-api and as a template for developing more >>>sophisticated plug-ins. Toporouter would be a good one. >>> >>>In any case, it would be great to get a few other people on-board, a >>>developer or two that is quite proficient in C++ would be very >>>helpful, >>>some hands-on with Qt would help a lot too. >>> >>>Someone to look after the Windows(tm) and Mac OS-X build and release >>>would be very helpful. >>> >>>Someone to help with packaging; windows installer, Mac OSX installer, >>>and linux .deb, .rpm packages would be helpful as well. >>> >>>If you're interested, please just send me a little about what you can >>>contribute, and your sourceforge id. >>> >>>Kind Regards, >>> >>>Mike Sharkey >>> >>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >>>Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) >>>Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ >>> >>>iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJOEAlnAAoJEEzVYN3s3Af7lqIIALSmDzQGxAjYBIcZsAcjw++D >>>gw8LQAvUytUY+4xX6kVkdeA+wjvywZw0+OZKoZXeOjvY39ZNMayKvzWN4zBoUjbc >>>YMSx9wZ7j6QYU9EBh25hpyGmMg97L5XubY/6zRV/xkvSs9qm8/gMyayBBVBU0sMM >>>43blOHuELx5WYsFS2uyz/WLWE8vdpxWnDpsqfxOvp2aaRZzzEzvuP5rnj7XTN9KV >>>TCFe+vT/auZZIEfKzGe9lYLMHgBpccBCr0IYOiRRS3LuCytTTnoscTdzXCiTX1sE >>>iNBJqbMHjrb64oOs+6P4x10gOSQB8rSRmFOlpQG8puNk7ZRh6ggFxgRTzYM3oZc= >>>=abfU >>>-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> >> >>All the times I've seen an autorouter used, it did horrible layouts. >>Between the extensive setup, and the extensive cleanup, they haven't >>been worth it. > >Autorouters for chips work pretty well. There is still cleanup to do on >critical nets but processors (or most FPGA designs) wouldn't be possible >without auto-placement/routing.Big digital ICs probably wouldn't be possible without autorouting, but I bet there's a lot of human guidance involved, still. People are still best at strategy. At the board level it seems they're of a lot>less utility, perhaps because boards aren't "regular" and there is a lot to be >gained by intuition. It could also be that there is a lot of the design that >isn't stated in the schematic. I have a pretty good idea what a board should >look like long before placement starts.Placement is key to routability. And auto-placers are worse than auto-routers. The layout guy often seems to be in>disagreement, though. ;-) He often doesn't even read the hints in the >schematic ("layout notes"). :-(It's best to work in physical proximity to the layout person, and interact. "Oh, I forgot to tell you, those clock lines can't run near those output traces" or "flip that connector over, please." Our manufacturing people get consulted, too, before it's too late.> >> Besides, routing and designing pours is the fun part. > >Is that why you have the brat do it?I lay out a small board now and then, but I just don't have the time to do serious boards. She just finished a laser controller that took about three weeks. I do take her boards home and check/tweak them, because I know stuff that she doesn't, or stuff we forgot to mention. I mostly look at impedances, terminations, bypassing, and look for obvious mistakes. I tweak the schematics for style, too. I often do placement for tricky sections, like GHz stuff, and let her take over. We did screw up one board recently. It had been extensively design reviewed, and two people, including me, checked the schematics and the layout. None of the power nets (+5, +12, -12, ground) were connected to pins on the VME connector. John
Reply by ●July 9, 20112011-07-09
John Larkin wrote:> On Sat, 09 Jul 2011 12:53:12 -0500, "krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" > <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:[...]> At the board level it seems they're of a lot >> less utility, perhaps because boards aren't "regular" and there is a lot to be >> gained by intuition. It could also be that there is a lot of the design that >> isn't stated in the schematic. I have a pretty good idea what a board should >> look like long before placement starts.> Placement is key to routability. And auto-placers are worse than > auto-routers.Sometimes auto-routers screw up at the last minute. I had on case, a switch-mode converter, go wrong. Client showed me the last layout, looked ok. But then they did one more minor change, let the autorouter run a few traces again, and didn't have me check it off because they were mere minutes away from the evening deadline for production. Sure enough it moved a bootstrap feed trace up top that absolutely should not be there. Turned it on, the inductor coupled spikes into the bootstrap trace, made the voltage exceed abs max ... *PHUT* [...] -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by ●July 9, 20112011-07-09
On Sat, 09 Jul 2011 13:24:02 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:>On Sat, 09 Jul 2011 12:53:12 -0500, "krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" ><krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote: > >>On Sat, 09 Jul 2011 10:20:05 -0700, John Larkin >><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >> >>>On Sat, 9 Jul 2011 09:09:16 -0700 (PDT), lynchaj <lynchaj@yahoo.com> >>>wrote: >>> >>>>Hi, >>>> >>>>There are a few free/open source PCB autorouters available however >>>>using them has been quite difficult due to a lack of interchange >>>>standards. There are at least three available such as MUCS-PCB, gEDA >>>>PCB (includes autorouter), and the Topological Autorouter >>>>(experimental also part of gEDA PCB). >>>> >>>>The QAutorouter provides a solution of building the Specctra DSN >>>>import and SES export facilities and a common API for "plug in" >>>>autorouter engine modules. >>>> >>>>Probably the best PCB autorouter for hobbyists at the moment is >>>>FreeRouting.net which supports Specctra DSN import and SES export. It >>>>is a very capable and effective PCB autorouter. The KiCAD, gEDA, >>>>FreePCB, and Eagle EDA tool sets all support Specctra DSN export and >>>>SES import and can use FreeRouting.net. However, while >>>>FreeRouting.net is free to use (as in beer) it is still commercial >>>>software so hobbyist support is limited in that the source code is not >>>>available. >>>> >>>>A truly free/open source PCB autorouter has been needed by the >>>>hobbyist EDA community for quite some time. If you are skilled >>>>software developer and familiar with EDA this would be a great >>>>opportunity to help out. Thanks in advance for your time and have a >>>>nice day! >>>> >>>>Andrew Lynch >>>> >>>>PS, please see the original announcement on KiCAD-users mailing list. >>>> >>>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>>>Hash: SHA1 >>>> >>>>Hi All, >>>> >>>>I'm working on a project here >>>>http://sourceforge.net/projects/qautorouter/ >>>> >>>>It is an auto-router that is written in C++ on Qt application >>>>framework, >>>>reads/writes specctra file format and uses a plug-in style of >>>>interface >>>>for the router engines. >>>> >>>>It is very alpha at this stage, I have much of the UI, file I/O, and >>>>the >>>>plug-in API operational. I am working on a "Simple Router" plug-in at >>>>the moment that is implementing a simplified version of the expanding >>>>box algorithm. The Simple Router will be used as a sort of template >>>>for >>>>debugging the plugin-api and as a template for developing more >>>>sophisticated plug-ins. Toporouter would be a good one. >>>> >>>>In any case, it would be great to get a few other people on-board, a >>>>developer or two that is quite proficient in C++ would be very >>>>helpful, >>>>some hands-on with Qt would help a lot too. >>>> >>>>Someone to look after the Windows(tm) and Mac OS-X build and release >>>>would be very helpful. >>>> >>>>Someone to help with packaging; windows installer, Mac OSX installer, >>>>and linux .deb, .rpm packages would be helpful as well. >>>> >>>>If you're interested, please just send me a little about what you can >>>>contribute, and your sourceforge id. >>>> >>>>Kind Regards, >>>> >>>>Mike Sharkey >>>> >>>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >>>>Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) >>>>Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ >>>> >>>>iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJOEAlnAAoJEEzVYN3s3Af7lqIIALSmDzQGxAjYBIcZsAcjw++D >>>>gw8LQAvUytUY+4xX6kVkdeA+wjvywZw0+OZKoZXeOjvY39ZNMayKvzWN4zBoUjbc >>>>YMSx9wZ7j6QYU9EBh25hpyGmMg97L5XubY/6zRV/xkvSs9qm8/gMyayBBVBU0sMM >>>>43blOHuELx5WYsFS2uyz/WLWE8vdpxWnDpsqfxOvp2aaRZzzEzvuP5rnj7XTN9KV >>>>TCFe+vT/auZZIEfKzGe9lYLMHgBpccBCr0IYOiRRS3LuCytTTnoscTdzXCiTX1sE >>>>iNBJqbMHjrb64oOs+6P4x10gOSQB8rSRmFOlpQG8puNk7ZRh6ggFxgRTzYM3oZc= >>>>=abfU >>>>-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >>> >>> >>>All the times I've seen an autorouter used, it did horrible layouts. >>>Between the extensive setup, and the extensive cleanup, they haven't >>>been worth it. >> >>Autorouters for chips work pretty well. There is still cleanup to do on >>critical nets but processors (or most FPGA designs) wouldn't be possible >>without auto-placement/routing. > >Big digital ICs probably wouldn't be possible without autorouting, but >I bet there's a lot of human guidance involved, still. People are >still best at strategy.The chips I worked on, most was autoplaced and routed with the hand stuff being done at the end to close timing. No need to mess with nets that worked.> At the board level it seems they're of a lot >>less utility, perhaps because boards aren't "regular" and there is a lot to be >>gained by intuition. It could also be that there is a lot of the design that >>isn't stated in the schematic. I have a pretty good idea what a board should >>look like long before placement starts. > >Placement is key to routability. And auto-placers are worse than >auto-routers.Again, your experience is with boards. Chips, particularly digital ones, are a little different, though I suppose you could equate floorplanning with chip placement.> The layout guy often seems to be in >>disagreement, though. ;-) He often doesn't even read the hints in the >>schematic ("layout notes"). :-( > >It's best to work in physical proximity to the layout person, and >interact. "Oh, I forgot to tell you, those clock lines can't run near >those output traces" or "flip that connector over, please." Our >manufacturing people get consulted, too, before it's too late.He's in the next office (but sometimes that's a world away).>>> Besides, routing and designing pours is the fun part. >> >>Is that why you have the brat do it? > >I lay out a small board now and then, but I just don't have the time >to do serious boards. She just finished a laser controller that took >about three weeks. I do take her boards home and check/tweak them, >because I know stuff that she doesn't, or stuff we forgot to mention. >I mostly look at impedances, terminations, bypassing, and look for >obvious mistakes. I tweak the schematics for style, too.That's what I like in engineering; style points. ;-)>I often do placement for tricky sections, like GHz stuff, and let her >take over.We'll see how the board with the 13 AMD iso-power (180-300MHz) thingies came out. It's back from fab but manufacturing has been busy with that icky stuff that people pay for. I may take it up to Atlanta to have a pre-scan done.>We did screw up one board recently. It had been extensively design >reviewed, and two people, including me, checked the schematics and the >layout. None of the power nets (+5, +12, -12, ground) were connected >to pins on the VME connector.BTDT. Our layout guy is always screwing up the footprints so we check them pretty thoroughly, though it just bit us again on a prototype/production test board. He got the pushbuttons on sideways. "It's just a test board."
Reply by ●July 10, 20112011-07-10
On 7/9/2011 1:24 PM, John Larkin wrote:>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>>> Hash: SHA1 >>>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> I'm working on a project here >>>> http://sourceforge.net/projects/qautorouter/ >>>> >>>> It is an auto-router that is written in C++ on Qt application >>>> framework, >>>> reads/writes specctra file format and uses a plug-in style of >>>> interface >>>> for the router engines. >>>> >>>> It is very alpha at this stage, I have much of the UI, file I/O, and >>>> the >>>> plug-in API operational. I am working on a "Simple Router" plug-in at >>>> the moment that is implementing a simplified version of the expanding >>>> box algorithm. The Simple Router will be used as a sort of template >>>> for >>>> debugging the plugin-api and as a template for developing more >>>> sophisticated plug-ins. Toporouter would be a good one. >>>> >>>> In any case, it would be great to get a few other people on-board, a >>>> developer or two that is quite proficient in C++ would be very >>>> helpful, >>>> some hands-on with Qt would help a lot too. >>>> >>>> Someone to look after the Windows(tm) and Mac OS-X build and release >>>> would be very helpful. >>>> >>>> Someone to help with packaging; windows installer, Mac OSX installer, >>>> and linux .deb, .rpm packages would be helpful as well. >>>> >>>> If you're interested, please just send me a little about what you can >>>> contribute, and your sourceforge id. >>>> >>>> Kind Regards, >>>> >>>> Mike Sharkey >>>> >>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >>>> Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) >>>> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ >>>> >>>> iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJOEAlnAAoJEEzVYN3s3Af7lqIIALSmDzQGxAjYBIcZsAcjw++D >>>> gw8LQAvUytUY+4xX6kVkdeA+wjvywZw0+OZKoZXeOjvY39ZNMayKvzWN4zBoUjbc >>>> YMSx9wZ7j6QYU9EBh25hpyGmMg97L5XubY/6zRV/xkvSs9qm8/gMyayBBVBU0sMM >>>> 43blOHuELx5WYsFS2uyz/WLWE8vdpxWnDpsqfxOvp2aaRZzzEzvuP5rnj7XTN9KV >>>> TCFe+vT/auZZIEfKzGe9lYLMHgBpccBCr0IYOiRRS3LuCytTTnoscTdzXCiTX1sE >>>> iNBJqbMHjrb64oOs+6P4x10gOSQB8rSRmFOlpQG8puNk7ZRh6ggFxgRTzYM3oZc= >>>> =abfU >>>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >>> >>> >>> All the times I've seen an autorouter used, it did horrible layouts. >>> Between the extensive setup, and the extensive cleanup, they haven't >>> been worth it. >> >> Autorouters for chips work pretty well. There is still cleanup to do on >> critical nets but processors (or most FPGA designs) wouldn't be possible >> without auto-placement/routing. > > Big digital ICs probably wouldn't be possible without autorouting, but > I bet there's a lot of human guidance involved, still. People are > still best at strategy. > > At the board level it seems they're of a lot >> less utility, perhaps because boards aren't "regular" and there is a lot to be >> gained by intuition. It could also be that there is a lot of the design that >> isn't stated in the schematic. I have a pretty good idea what a board should >> look like long before placement starts. > > Placement is key to routability. And auto-placers are worse than > auto-routers. > > The layout guy often seems to be in >> disagreement, though. ;-) He often doesn't even read the hints in the >> schematic ("layout notes"). :-( > > It's best to work in physical proximity to the layout person, and > interact. "Oh, I forgot to tell you, those clock lines can't run near > those output traces" or "flip that connector over, please." Our > manufacturing people get consulted, too, before it's too late. > >> >>> Besides, routing and designing pours is the fun part. >> >> Is that why you have the brat do it? > > I lay out a small board now and then, but I just don't have the time > to do serious boards. She just finished a laser controller that took > about three weeks. I do take her boards home and check/tweak them, > because I know stuff that she doesn't, or stuff we forgot to mention. > I mostly look at impedances, terminations, bypassing, and look for > obvious mistakes. I tweak the schematics for style, too. > > I often do placement for tricky sections, like GHz stuff, and let her > take over. > > We did screw up one board recently. It had been extensively design > reviewed, and two people, including me, checked the schematics and the > layout. None of the power nets (+5, +12, -12, ground) were connected > to pins on the VME connector. > > John >100% routed by hand by me: http://www.rocketresearch.org/new/FPGA%20control%20module/FPGA%20control%20module%20PCB.png I wish there was a good autorouter to do that intead though as it really took a lot of work. I wish your qautorouter project success, autorouters could use a lot of improvement from what I've seen. cheers, Jamie
Reply by ●July 10, 20112011-07-10
Hi! Can't you benefit from the bus hints, chip-info and crystals, deduce which connections are: * high/low-ohmic * high/low current * high/low frequency * connections that depend on delays on other connections - and not * (un)balanced connections * user hints, when needed e.g. (star-ground?) and combination of the above? So e.g. high-ohmic are short and is not near high current/frequency connections? How hard can that be ;-) To deduce or "limit" autoplace and autoroute? - Are we still doing stone-age AI? ;-) Glenn
Reply by ●July 10, 20112011-07-10
And why aren't we using asynchronous logic/circuits everywhere? Why do still relay on a global clock - it sucks ;-) It asks for glitches and to much power. Asynchronous circuit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asynchronous_circuit Quote: "... Benefits ... * Early completion of a circuit when it is known that the inputs which have not yet arrived are irrelevant. * 70% lower power consumption compared to synchronous design[3] * Possibly lower power consumption because no transistor ever transitions unless it is performing useful computation (clock gating in synchronous designs is an imperfect approximation of this ideal). Also, clock drivers can be removed which can significantly reduce power consumption.... ... * Better modularity and composability. ... * Far fewer assumptions about the manufacturing process are required (most assumptions are timing assumptions). * Circuit speed adapts to changing temperature and voltage conditions rather than being locked at the speed mandated by worst-case assumptions. * Immunity to transistor-to-transistor variability in the manufacturing process, which is one of the most serious problems facing the semiconductor industry as dies shrink. * Less severe electromagnetic interference (EMI). Synchronous circuits create a great deal of EMI in the frequency band at (or very near) their clock frequency and its harmonics; asynchronous circuits generate EMI patterns which are much more evenly spread across the spectrum. * In asynchronous circuits, local signaling eliminates the need for global synchronization which exploits some potential advantages in comparison with synchronous ones. They have shown potential specifications in low power consumption, design reuse, improved noise immunity and electromagnetic compatibility. Asynchronous circuits are more tolerant to process variations and external voltage fluctuations=E2=80=8E[1]. * Less stress on the power distribution network. Synchronous circuits tend to draw a large amount of current right at the clock edge and shortly thereafter.... ... Disadvantages ..." Asynchronous logic: http://apt.cs.man.ac.uk/async/ 2/8/2006, ARM offers first clockless processor core: http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-products/processors/4082174/ARM-offers-f= irst-clockless-processor-core Glenn
Reply by ●July 10, 20112011-07-10
On Sun, 10 Jul 2011 00:25:08 -0700 (PDT), Glenn <glenn2233@gmail.com> wrote:>And why aren't we using asynchronous logic/circuits everywhere?Because a reliable, robust, economical solution to asynchronous transitions apparently doesn't exist? What do I win?>Why do still relay on a global clock - it sucks ;-)It works.>It asks for glitches and to much power.Glitches can be dealt with and "to" much power is relative.>Asynchronous circuit: >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asynchronous_circuit >Quote: "... >Benefits[Handwaving snipped]>DisadvantagesFabricated from unobtanium.>Asynchronous logic: >http://apt.cs.man.ac.uk/async/ > >2/8/2006, ARM offers first clockless processor core: >http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-products/processors/4082174/ARM-offers-first-clockless-processor-coreWhat is the unit cost of a ARM996HS-based processor? The ARM Cortex M3 was introduced at about the same time as the clockless core touted above. Compare and contrast the number of units shipped. -- Rich Webb Norfolk, VA
