Anyone using a Welec W20xxA DSO?

Started by Falk Willberg July 8, 2009
Jon Kirwan wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 15:46:48 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> > wrote: > >> Jon Kirwan wrote: >>> On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:49:20 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Falk Willberg wrote: >>>>> As far as I can see, Wittig is selling significant numbers of their very >>>>> cheap 1Gs/s 200MHz DSOs via ebay (e.g. 190302544569). >>>>> >>>>> As I am familiar with most of the issues regarding this scope, I would >>>>> like to know, wether users have upgraded from the original, pretty - >>>>> let's say - improvable firmware to the much better OpenSource version. >>>>> >>>> Made in England, and it went for 350 Euros? Wow! Do these things really >>>> work? >>> Eine interessante Antwort ist hier: >>> http://rtr.ca/welec_w2022a/ >>> >>> At the bottom of quite a lot of information is this note from a >>> purchaser: >>> >>> "Welec, is the same company previously called Wittig Electronics that >>> went bankrupt. I purchased a W2012 (note no "A") that looks identical. >>> it was a POS. I use PayPal for eBay purchases, and was able to get >>> refund. Perhaps you can too. These guys are very shady. I'm not sure >>> how they get such high ratings on eBay, they must be gaming the >>> system. I ended up buying a used Tek DSO on eBay, and I'm satisfied." >> Yes, I saw that. But Falk participates a lot in the German NG and does >> real electronics, so it must work for him to some extent. If you can get >> these for 350 Euros that almost looks like a liquidation sale. > > What about this, then: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370226435442 > > Not too far from 350 Euros. >
They are quite good but heavy. A client bought some.
>> Sometimes it's ok to live with certain shortcomings. Like the remote >> control SW for my Instek which is unfortunately .NET-based and crashes a >> lot. Not nice but still allows me to not have to switch between 3x >> glasses for SMT and 1.5x to look at the scope. However, from links like >> te one above it appears that the internal software of that W2012 must be >> really horrid. > > It's both the hardware and the software, it seems from the page. Noisy > inputs and really horrible software as well. Might make an interesting > starting point for DIY, except that there are functional units to be > had without all the bother and not so far away in price. >
Right. Or pay a little more and get a good Asian scope. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
Falk Willberg wrote:
> Joerg schrieb: >> Jon Kirwan wrote: >>> On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:49:20 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >>> wrote: > >>>> Made in England, and it went for 350 Euros? Wow! Do these things >>>> really work? > > If you only had a 20MHz Lucky-Goldstar before, it is just great. >
Wasn't that a cigarette brand? SCNR ...
>>> Eine interessante Antwort ist hier: >>> http://rtr.ca/welec_w2022a/ >>> >>> At the bottom of quite a lot of information is this note from a >>> purchaser: >>> >>> "Welec, is the same company previously called Wittig Electronics that >>> went bankrupt. I purchased a W2012 (note no "A") that looks identical. >>> it was a POS. I use PayPal for eBay purchases, and was able to get >>> refund...." >> Yes, I saw that. But Falk participates a lot in the German NG and does >> real electronics, so it must work for him to some extent. > > Due to the W2022A's shortcomings like noise and slow response I am > currently using both: The Welec for most digital things, like serial > protocols and a TEK464 for the stuff, the DSO cannot handle. >
Yes, now I remember you mentioning that in the German NG.
>> If you can get >> these for 350 Euros that almost looks like a liquidation sale. > > I am sure, it is. > >> However, from links like >> te one above it appears that the internal software of that W2012 must be >> really horrid. > > The original internal software is as bad as the sources, we are working > on, are. But some problems already have been solved: > - less noise with improved ADC/DAC-calibration, faster display, working > FFT, screenshots and download of data working, improved quick measure, > improved triggers and some more. >
So what was the SW guy at Wittig doing? Couldn't get it done? Overloaded with other work? Ganging four ADC is not quite trivial. Have done it, with auto-calibration and all. The cardinal rule is not to fall for digital delay lines, those can be the pits.
> That's why I asked, wether any users of those scopes are reading here > and what firmware version they are using. >
I have never seen one in America but maybe some of our Brits have?
> Falk > P.S.: A screenshot of the new but not yet finished FFT-function: > http://www.mikrocontroller.net/attachment/53745/FFT.gif
Nice! -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Wed, 08 Jul 2009 15:46:48 -0700) it happened Joerg > <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in <7bklv5F235mpcU1@mid.individual.net>: > >> Jon Kirwan wrote: >>> On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:49:20 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Falk Willberg wrote: >>>>> As far as I can see, Wittig is selling significant numbers of their very >>>>> cheap 1Gs/s 200MHz DSOs via ebay (e.g. 190302544569). >>>>> >>>>> As I am familiar with most of the issues regarding this scope, I would >>>>> like to know, wether users have upgraded from the original, pretty - >>>>> let's say - improvable firmware to the much better OpenSource version. >>>>> >>>> Made in England, and it went for 350 Euros? Wow! Do these things really >>>> work? >>> Eine interessante Antwort ist hier: >>> http://rtr.ca/welec_w2022a/ >>> >>> At the bottom of quite a lot of information is this note from a >>> purchaser: >>> >>> "Welec, is the same company previously called Wittig Electronics that >>> went bankrupt. I purchased a W2012 (note no "A") that looks identical. >>> it was a POS. I use PayPal for eBay purchases, and was able to get >>> refund. Perhaps you can too. These guys are very shady. I'm not sure >>> how they get such high ratings on eBay, they must be gaming the >>> system. I ended up buying a used Tek DSO on eBay, and I'm satisfied." >>> >> Yes, I saw that. But Falk participates a lot in the German NG and does >> real electronics, so it must work for him to some extent. If you can get >> these for 350 Euros that almost looks like a liquidation sale. >> >> Sometimes it's ok to live with certain shortcomings. Like the remote >> control SW for my Instek which is unfortunately .NET-based and crashes a >> lot. Not nice but still allows me to not have to switch between 3x >> glasses for SMT and 1.5x to look at the scope. However, from links like >> te one above it appears that the internal software of that W2012 must be >> really horrid. >> >> -- >> Regards, Joerg > > I have been looking at the block diagram of that scope. > I uses 4 x ADC in 'staggered' sequential mode to get 1G samples/second. > So each ADC samples every 4 nS. > To have a bit reasonable sampling, the samples must be equally spaced. > If you allow 10% error (well that is not very good is it?), then the > positional accuracy should be 100 pS ? But 10 pS would be better :-) > I dunno how they do that:-), maybe a delay line? Temp drift? > Hopefully not done with gate delays in the FPGA???? > So what is their 1G samples really worth?
The Instek GDS-2204 in the lab here does it like that as well. So does gear that I've designed. You can track ADCs so precisely that the error is way below their quantization granularity. But you must auto-calibrate all three parameters: Clock phases, offsets, gains.
> I like the fact that the design is open, and I if I had one for > free, say found it on the door step, I 4 sure would have a go at the soft... > But you are stuck with the hardware... > Also what good is an 8 bit ADC if you have 3 bits of it unstable and showing up > as noise, as in that picture? >
Screwed up layout? That shouldn't happen.
> For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples, have not tried those, > but you know, guarantee, service...
Yep, several Asian mfgs these days. And some can give Agilent and Tek a run for the money in the low-end sector. I've had situations where the Instek scope here out-maneuvered a more expensive Tek. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
Jan Panteltje schrieb:

...

> For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples,
As I am using Linux, I am quite happy with the open source. So I was able to add functions *I* wanted to have. Also very important: It has a lot of "Spielwert", (if someone could translate that, please ;-) ) and I don't want to use a 30 MHz analog LG5020 (or so) for 300&#2013266084; any longer...
> have not tried those, > but you know, guarantee, service...
Wittig gives 3 years warranty. And I was told, that they really repair or replace. Falk
Falk Willberg wrote:
> Jan Panteltje schrieb: > > ... > >> For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples, > > As I am using Linux, I am quite happy with the open source. So I was > able to add functions *I* wanted to have. >
Offering an open source scope platform is actually a brilliant business idea. They'll be the only ones because the others are extremely restrictive. I wanted to fix some minor things on my DSO and asked for the keys to the firmware. The answer was a firm "You can't have those".
> Also very important: It has a lot of "Spielwert", (if someone could > translate that, please ;-) ) ...
Fun factor. So you are probably not married :-)
> ... and I don't want to use a 30 MHz analog > LG5020 (or so) for 300&#2013266084; any longer... >
But always keep an analog scope around. DSOs can seriously fool you in some situations and it's also next to impossible to detect slight noise effects.
>> have not tried those, >> but you know, guarantee, service... > > Wittig gives 3 years warranty. And I was told, that they really repair > or replace. >
Wasn't there a bankruptcy? At least in the US warranty rights are pretty much toast after that. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
On a sunny day (Thu, 09 Jul 2009 17:36:08 +0200) it happened Falk Willberg
<Faweglassenlk@falk-willberg.de> wrote in
<h3524a$eic$1@news2.open-news-network.org>:

>Jan Panteltje schrieb: > >... > >> For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples, > >As I am using Linux, I am quite happy with the open source. So I was >able to add functions *I* wanted to have.
You mean on the PC side? That website says they cannot install new firmware yet?
>Wittig gives 3 years warranty. And I was told, that they really repair >or replace.
I once bought a calculator in London. It did not even add 1+1. Brought it back, the guy told me: O, I gave you the UK version, here is the same one made in the US. That one worked.
Jan Panteltje schrieb:
> On a sunny day (Thu, 09 Jul 2009 17:36:08 +0200) it happened Falk Willberg > <Faweglassenlk@falk-willberg.de> wrote in > <h3524a$eic$1@news2.open-news-network.org>: > >> Jan Panteltje schrieb: >> >> ... >> >>> For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples, >> As I am using Linux, I am quite happy with the open source. So I was >> able to add functions *I* wanted to have.
> You mean on the PC side?
On both sides.
> That website says they cannot install new firmware yet?
What website says that? The open source firmware *is* *working* much better than the original. The latest release is 0.82, see https://welecw2000a.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/welecw2000a/fpga/firmware/ Falk
Joerg schrieb:
> Falk Willberg wrote: >> Jan Panteltje schrieb: >> >> ... >> >>> For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples, >> >> As I am using Linux, I am quite happy with the open source. So I was >> able to add functions *I* wanted to have. >> > Offering an open source scope platform is actually a brilliant business > idea. They'll be the only ones because the others are extremely > restrictive. I wanted to fix some minor things on my DSO and asked for > the keys to the firmware. The answer was a firm "You can't have those".
Sometimes I think that those developers feel ashamed of their code ;-)
>> Also very important: It has a lot of "Spielwert", (if someone could >> translate that, please ;-) ) ... > > Fun factor.
Thanks.
> So you are probably not married :-)
She beleives knitting is fun. I beleive, burning my fingers, fixing things, writing software is fun ;-)
>>> have not tried those, >>> but you know, guarantee, service... >> >> Wittig gives 3 years warranty. And I was told, that they really repair >> or replace. > > Wasn't there a bankruptcy? At least in the US warranty rights are pretty > much toast after that.
AFAIK the Welec GmbH went bancrupt. But now Wittig Electronics GmbH sells the scopes. Falk
On a sunny day (Thu, 09 Jul 2009 19:30:55 +0200) it happened Falk Willberg
<Faweglassenlk@falk-willberg.de> wrote in
<h358re$gon$1@news2.open-news-network.org>:

>Jan Panteltje schrieb: >> On a sunny day (Thu, 09 Jul 2009 17:36:08 +0200) it happened Falk Willberg >> <Faweglassenlk@falk-willberg.de> wrote in >> <h3524a$eic$1@news2.open-news-network.org>: >> >>> Jan Panteltje schrieb: >>> >>> ... >>> >>>> For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples, >>> As I am using Linux, I am quite happy with the open source. So I was >>> able to add functions *I* wanted to have. > >> You mean on the PC side? > >On both sides. > >> That website says they cannot install new firmware yet? > >What website says that?
the one (of many) I was on, cannot find it back, but it did say some essential part was missiing.
>The open source firmware *is* *working* much >better than the original. The latest release is 0.82, see >https://welecw2000a.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/welecw2000a/fpga/firmware/ > >Falk
OK.
On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 06:46:13 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>Falk Willberg wrote: >> Joerg schrieb: >>> Jon Kirwan wrote: >>>> On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:49:20 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >>>> wrote: >> >>>>> Made in England, and it went for 350 Euros? Wow! Do these things >>>>> really work? >> >> If you only had a 20MHz Lucky-Goldstar before, it is just great. > >Wasn't that a cigarette brand? SCNR ... > >>>> Eine interessante Antwort ist hier: >>>> http://rtr.ca/welec_w2022a/ >>>> >>>> At the bottom of quite a lot of information is this note from a >>>> purchaser: >>>> >>>> "Welec, is the same company previously called Wittig Electronics that >>>> went bankrupt. I purchased a W2012 (note no "A") that looks identical. >>>> it was a POS. I use PayPal for eBay purchases, and was able to get >>>> refund...." >>> Yes, I saw that. But Falk participates a lot in the German NG and does >>> real electronics, so it must work for him to some extent. >> >> Due to the W2022A's shortcomings like noise and slow response I am >> currently using both: The Welec for most digital things, like serial >> protocols and a TEK464 for the stuff, the DSO cannot handle. > >Yes, now I remember you mentioning that in the German NG. ><snip>
Which newsgroup is this. I'd like to start reading it. I need to work on German -- especially technical terms. Thanks, Jon