Anyone using a Welec W20xxA DSO?

Started by Falk Willberg July 8, 2009
As far as I can see, Wittig is selling significant numbers of their very
cheap 1Gs/s 200MHz DSOs via ebay (e.g. 190302544569).

As I am familiar with most of the issues regarding this scope, I would
like to know, wether users have upgraded from the original, pretty -
let's say - improvable firmware to the much better OpenSource version.

Regards,
Falk
Falk Willberg wrote:
> As far as I can see, Wittig is selling significant numbers of their very > cheap 1Gs/s 200MHz DSOs via ebay (e.g. 190302544569). > > As I am familiar with most of the issues regarding this scope, I would > like to know, wether users have upgraded from the original, pretty - > let's say - improvable firmware to the much better OpenSource version. >
Made in England, and it went for 350 Euros? Wow! Do these things really work? -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
Falk Willberg wrote:
> As far as I can see, Wittig is selling significant numbers of their > very cheap 1Gs/s 200MHz DSOs via ebay (e.g. 190302544569). > > As I am familiar with most of the issues regarding this scope, I would > like to know, wether users have upgraded from the original, pretty - > let's say - improvable firmware to the much better OpenSource version. > > Regards, > Falk
For those playing along at home: http://rtr.ca/welec_w2022a/ http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/welecw2000a/ and the hardware: http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/welecw2000a/wiki/Hardware Pretty obvious they were not using a true 1GS/s converter. the front end schematic: http://welec-dso.googlegroups.com/web/Analog_+Inputs.png?gda=8VEswEQAAADKIUWHNk3vK1q-wxPusPv1UKR8chmNA5Tm4wyy8v6Dgfa2WeN-r3_WC1DUZQCD2SZV6u9SiETdg0Q2ffAyHU-dzc4BZkLnSFWX59nr5BxGqA Dave. -- --------------------------------------------- Check out my Electronics Engineering Video Blog & Podcast: http://www.alternatezone.com/eevblog/
On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:49:20 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>Falk Willberg wrote: >> As far as I can see, Wittig is selling significant numbers of their very >> cheap 1Gs/s 200MHz DSOs via ebay (e.g. 190302544569). >> >> As I am familiar with most of the issues regarding this scope, I would >> like to know, wether users have upgraded from the original, pretty - >> let's say - improvable firmware to the much better OpenSource version. >> > >Made in England, and it went for 350 Euros? Wow! Do these things really >work?
Eine interessante Antwort ist hier: http://rtr.ca/welec_w2022a/ At the bottom of quite a lot of information is this note from a purchaser: "Welec, is the same company previously called Wittig Electronics that went bankrupt. I purchased a W2012 (note no "A") that looks identical. it was a POS. I use PayPal for eBay purchases, and was able to get refund. Perhaps you can too. These guys are very shady. I'm not sure how they get such high ratings on eBay, they must be gaming the system. I ended up buying a used Tek DSO on eBay, and I'm satisfied." Jon
Jon Kirwan wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:49:20 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> > wrote: > >> Falk Willberg wrote: >>> As far as I can see, Wittig is selling significant numbers of their very >>> cheap 1Gs/s 200MHz DSOs via ebay (e.g. 190302544569). >>> >>> As I am familiar with most of the issues regarding this scope, I would >>> like to know, wether users have upgraded from the original, pretty - >>> let's say - improvable firmware to the much better OpenSource version. >>> >> Made in England, and it went for 350 Euros? Wow! Do these things really >> work? > > Eine interessante Antwort ist hier: > http://rtr.ca/welec_w2022a/ > > At the bottom of quite a lot of information is this note from a > purchaser: > > "Welec, is the same company previously called Wittig Electronics that > went bankrupt. I purchased a W2012 (note no "A") that looks identical. > it was a POS. I use PayPal for eBay purchases, and was able to get > refund. Perhaps you can too. These guys are very shady. I'm not sure > how they get such high ratings on eBay, they must be gaming the > system. I ended up buying a used Tek DSO on eBay, and I'm satisfied." >
Yes, I saw that. But Falk participates a lot in the German NG and does real electronics, so it must work for him to some extent. If you can get these for 350 Euros that almost looks like a liquidation sale. Sometimes it's ok to live with certain shortcomings. Like the remote control SW for my Instek which is unfortunately .NET-based and crashes a lot. Not nice but still allows me to not have to switch between 3x glasses for SMT and 1.5x to look at the scope. However, from links like te one above it appears that the internal software of that W2012 must be really horrid. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
Joerg wrote:
> Jon Kirwan wrote: >> On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:49:20 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> Falk Willberg wrote: >>>> As far as I can see, Wittig is selling significant numbers of >>>> their very cheap 1Gs/s 200MHz DSOs via ebay (e.g. 190302544569). >>>> >>>> As I am familiar with most of the issues regarding this scope, I >>>> would like to know, wether users have upgraded from the original, >>>> pretty - let's say - improvable firmware to the much better >>>> OpenSource version. >>> Made in England, and it went for 350 Euros? Wow! Do these things >>> really work? >> >> Eine interessante Antwort ist hier: >> http://rtr.ca/welec_w2022a/ >> >> At the bottom of quite a lot of information is this note from a >> purchaser: >> >> "Welec, is the same company previously called Wittig Electronics that >> went bankrupt. I purchased a W2012 (note no "A") that looks >> identical. it was a POS. I use PayPal for eBay purchases, and was >> able to get refund. Perhaps you can too. These guys are very shady. >> I'm not sure how they get such high ratings on eBay, they must be >> gaming the system.
A lot of people who buy these really cheap no-name scopes typically don't know anything about scopes or how they should perform, so as long as they get a waveform on the screen they are happy with their purchase and hence leave positive feedback.
> Yes, I saw that. But Falk participates a lot in the German NG and does > real electronics, so it must work for him to some extent. If you can > get these for 350 Euros that almost looks like a liquidation sale. > > Sometimes it's ok to live with certain shortcomings. Like the remote > control SW for my Instek which is unfortunately .NET-based and > crashes a lot. Not nice but still allows me to not have to switch > between 3x glasses for SMT and 1.5x to look at the scope. However, > from links like te one above it appears that the internal software of > that W2012 must be really horrid.
I love the quote from here: http://rtr.ca/welec_w2022a/ " Meanwhile, a German group has actually managed to get the Wittig brothers to release (most) source code for the scope, and the code is now available on SourceForge.net. But this is still missing a rather important hardware description component, so it cannot be used or recompiled yet. The C++ code looks like it was written by a 10-year old with a TRS-80 BASIC programming background. Ugly and unreadable as hell, with little hope of being salvageable." Dave. -- ================================================ Check out my Electronics Engineering Video Blog & Podcast: http://www.alternatezone.com/eevblog/
On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 15:46:48 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>Jon Kirwan wrote: >> On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:49:20 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> Falk Willberg wrote: >>>> As far as I can see, Wittig is selling significant numbers of their very >>>> cheap 1Gs/s 200MHz DSOs via ebay (e.g. 190302544569). >>>> >>>> As I am familiar with most of the issues regarding this scope, I would >>>> like to know, wether users have upgraded from the original, pretty - >>>> let's say - improvable firmware to the much better OpenSource version. >>>> >>> Made in England, and it went for 350 Euros? Wow! Do these things really >>> work? >> >> Eine interessante Antwort ist hier: >> http://rtr.ca/welec_w2022a/ >> >> At the bottom of quite a lot of information is this note from a >> purchaser: >> >> "Welec, is the same company previously called Wittig Electronics that >> went bankrupt. I purchased a W2012 (note no "A") that looks identical. >> it was a POS. I use PayPal for eBay purchases, and was able to get >> refund. Perhaps you can too. These guys are very shady. I'm not sure >> how they get such high ratings on eBay, they must be gaming the >> system. I ended up buying a used Tek DSO on eBay, and I'm satisfied." > >Yes, I saw that. But Falk participates a lot in the German NG and does >real electronics, so it must work for him to some extent. If you can get >these for 350 Euros that almost looks like a liquidation sale.
What about this, then: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370226435442 Not too far from 350 Euros.
>Sometimes it's ok to live with certain shortcomings. Like the remote >control SW for my Instek which is unfortunately .NET-based and crashes a >lot. Not nice but still allows me to not have to switch between 3x >glasses for SMT and 1.5x to look at the scope. However, from links like >te one above it appears that the internal software of that W2012 must be >really horrid.
It's both the hardware and the software, it seems from the page. Noisy inputs and really horrible software as well. Might make an interesting starting point for DIY, except that there are functional units to be had without all the bother and not so far away in price. Jon
Joerg schrieb:
> Jon Kirwan wrote: >> On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:49:20 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >> wrote:
>>> Made in England, and it went for 350 Euros? Wow! Do these things >>> really work?
If you only had a 20MHz Lucky-Goldstar before, it is just great.
>> Eine interessante Antwort ist hier: >> http://rtr.ca/welec_w2022a/ >> >> At the bottom of quite a lot of information is this note from a >> purchaser: >> >> "Welec, is the same company previously called Wittig Electronics that >> went bankrupt. I purchased a W2012 (note no "A") that looks identical. >> it was a POS. I use PayPal for eBay purchases, and was able to get >> refund...." > > Yes, I saw that. But Falk participates a lot in the German NG and does > real electronics, so it must work for him to some extent.
Due to the W2022A's shortcomings like noise and slow response I am currently using both: The Welec for most digital things, like serial protocols and a TEK464 for the stuff, the DSO cannot handle.
> If you can get > these for 350 Euros that almost looks like a liquidation sale.
I am sure, it is.
> However, from links like > te one above it appears that the internal software of that W2012 must be > really horrid.
The original internal software is as bad as the sources, we are working on, are. But some problems already have been solved: - less noise with improved ADC/DAC-calibration, faster display, working FFT, screenshots and download of data working, improved quick measure, improved triggers and some more. That's why I asked, wether any users of those scopes are reading here and what firmware version they are using. Falk P.S.: A screenshot of the new but not yet finished FFT-function: http://www.mikrocontroller.net/attachment/53745/FFT.gif -- "Ihr werdet euch noch w&#2013266172;nschen wir w&#2013265924;ren politikverdrossen." Max Winde (Twitter)
On a sunny day (Wed, 08 Jul 2009 15:46:48 -0700) it happened Joerg
<invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in <7bklv5F235mpcU1@mid.individual.net>:

>Jon Kirwan wrote: >> On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:49:20 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> Falk Willberg wrote: >>>> As far as I can see, Wittig is selling significant numbers of their very >>>> cheap 1Gs/s 200MHz DSOs via ebay (e.g. 190302544569). >>>> >>>> As I am familiar with most of the issues regarding this scope, I would >>>> like to know, wether users have upgraded from the original, pretty - >>>> let's say - improvable firmware to the much better OpenSource version. >>>> >>> Made in England, and it went for 350 Euros? Wow! Do these things really >>> work? >> >> Eine interessante Antwort ist hier: >> http://rtr.ca/welec_w2022a/ >> >> At the bottom of quite a lot of information is this note from a >> purchaser: >> >> "Welec, is the same company previously called Wittig Electronics that >> went bankrupt. I purchased a W2012 (note no "A") that looks identical. >> it was a POS. I use PayPal for eBay purchases, and was able to get >> refund. Perhaps you can too. These guys are very shady. I'm not sure >> how they get such high ratings on eBay, they must be gaming the >> system. I ended up buying a used Tek DSO on eBay, and I'm satisfied." >> > >Yes, I saw that. But Falk participates a lot in the German NG and does >real electronics, so it must work for him to some extent. If you can get >these for 350 Euros that almost looks like a liquidation sale. > >Sometimes it's ok to live with certain shortcomings. Like the remote >control SW for my Instek which is unfortunately .NET-based and crashes a >lot. Not nice but still allows me to not have to switch between 3x >glasses for SMT and 1.5x to look at the scope. However, from links like >te one above it appears that the internal software of that W2012 must be >really horrid. > >-- >Regards, Joerg
I have been looking at the block diagram of that scope. I uses 4 x ADC in 'staggered' sequential mode to get 1G samples/second. So each ADC samples every 4 nS. To have a bit reasonable sampling, the samples must be equally spaced. If you allow 10% error (well that is not very good is it?), then the positional accuracy should be 100 pS ? But 10 pS would be better :-) I dunno how they do that:-), maybe a delay line? Temp drift? Hopefully not done with gate delays in the FPGA???? So what is their 1G samples really worth? I like the fact that the design is open, and I if I had one for free, say found it on the door step, I 4 sure would have a go at the soft... But you are stuck with the hardware... Also what good is an 8 bit ADC if you have 3 bits of it unstable and showing up as noise, as in that picture? For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples, have not tried those, but you know, guarantee, service...
Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Wed, 08 Jul 2009 15:46:48 -0700) it happened Joerg > <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in > <7bklv5F235mpcU1@mid.individual.net>: > >> Jon Kirwan wrote: >>> On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:49:20 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Falk Willberg wrote: >>>>> As far as I can see, Wittig is selling significant numbers of >>>>> their very cheap 1Gs/s 200MHz DSOs via ebay (e.g. 190302544569). >>>>> >>>>> As I am familiar with most of the issues regarding this scope, I >>>>> would like to know, wether users have upgraded from the original, >>>>> pretty - let's say - improvable firmware to the much better >>>>> OpenSource version. >>>>> >>>> Made in England, and it went for 350 Euros? Wow! Do these things >>>> really work? >>> >>> Eine interessante Antwort ist hier: >>> http://rtr.ca/welec_w2022a/ >>> >>> At the bottom of quite a lot of information is this note from a >>> purchaser: >>> >>> "Welec, is the same company previously called Wittig Electronics >>> that went bankrupt. I purchased a W2012 (note no "A") that looks >>> identical. it was a POS. I use PayPal for eBay purchases, and was >>> able to get refund. Perhaps you can too. These guys are very shady. >>> I'm not sure how they get such high ratings on eBay, they must be >>> gaming the system. I ended up buying a used Tek DSO on eBay, and >>> I'm satisfied." >>> >> >> Yes, I saw that. But Falk participates a lot in the German NG and >> does real electronics, so it must work for him to some extent. If >> you can get these for 350 Euros that almost looks like a liquidation >> sale. >> >> Sometimes it's ok to live with certain shortcomings. Like the remote >> control SW for my Instek which is unfortunately .NET-based and >> crashes a lot. Not nice but still allows me to not have to switch >> between 3x glasses for SMT and 1.5x to look at the scope. However, >> from links like te one above it appears that the internal software >> of that W2012 must be really horrid. >> >> -- >> Regards, Joerg > > I have been looking at the block diagram of that scope. > I uses 4 x ADC in 'staggered' sequential mode to get 1G > samples/second. > So each ADC samples every 4 nS. > To have a bit reasonable sampling, the samples must be equally spaced. > If you allow 10% error (well that is not very good is it?), then the > positional accuracy should be 100 pS ? But 10 pS would be better :-) > I dunno how they do that:-), maybe a delay line? Temp drift? > Hopefully not done with gate delays in the FPGA???? > So what is their 1G samples really worth?
Not much, almost a gimmick really.
> I like the fact that the design is open, and I if I had one for > free, say found it on the door step, I 4 sure would have a go at the > soft... But you are stuck with the hardware... > Also what good is an 8 bit ADC if you have 3 bits of it unstable and > showing up as noise, as in that picture?
Pretty crusty huh?
> For about 520 Euro you can buy a Rigol with 1G samples, have not > tried those, but you know, guarantee, service...
The Rigol uses a genuine 1GS/s sampler, developed by them, they were the first one apart from the "big boys" (Agilent, Tek, Lecroy et.al) to do their own at that speed. The Rigol is so good (for that price level) that Agilent have been rebadging them for years. Interesting fact, Rigol are the #2 scope manufactuer in the world by volume. $520 euro? try $320euro for the DS1052E on Ebay. Granted, only 50Mhz analog bandwidth, but you get a genuine 1GS/s in real time, and that deep memory is so nice. Dave. -- --------------------------------------------- Check out my Electronics Engineering Video Blog & Podcast: http://www.alternatezone.com/eevblog/