sci.electronics.basics, Would You Like To Actually Participate In A Design ?

Started by July 5, 2018
This is an ESR detector for caps, electrolytics mainly that cause so many of the
problems in electronic equipment. This is not meant to be a lab quality instrument,
it is mew=ant to be a fast way to check alot of caps and that does find many
electronic problems. Nobody in the business will really argue with that unless they
work on some weird shit. 

One of the earlier ones was the Creative Electronics "Wonderbox". It did well, I
used one for a time. It is an ohmmeter, but an AC ohmmeter measuring at 50 KHz. This
works well but their rendition of it is lab quality and we don't need that for
servicing. 

Then came the Dick Smith. A fine meter but digital. It would give you the ESR
accurately and then refer you to a chart to find out if that value of cap was in
spec or not. 

My device gets rid of most of that. The bar graph shows a go/nogo condition almost
independent of the value, and actually the application. Many people do not realize
the application matters, in one circuit a cap would do just fine but in another not
at all. 

And after decades in the business you'll find that the applications in which they're
used, the moire demanding ones make them go bad faster and the less demanding ones
let them live longer. 

The thing about servicing this shit now i s that extreme efficiency is required. You
want to be in the business you can't waste a dime, and even if you have the best
employees, you could still fail and probably will. But when you learn how to rally
troubleshoot it carries on to other aspects of life. 

My next post will be the actual ASC file and nothing else. If you have TLSpice you
know, but everyone else, mark all the text, right click and "Copy", open a new text
document, "Paste" it in and then rename the file whatever name you want, but change
the extension to ASC. Windows will warn you but do it anyway. then a double click
will take it to LTSpice and you see the schematic. 

I am putting nothing else in this next post.
Version 4
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SYMBOL Comparators\\LT1716 480 736 R270
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SYMBOL Comparators\\LT1716 320 736 R270
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SYMBOL Comparators\\LT1716 160 736 R270
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SYMATTR Value 91
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SYMATTR Value 91
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SYMATTR Value 91
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SYMATTR Value 91
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SYMATTR Value 91
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SYMATTR Value 91
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SYMATTR InstName R61
SYMATTR Value 270
SYMBOL cap -1072 832 R0
SYMATTR InstName C12
SYMATTR Value 2.2µ
SYMBOL Comparators\\LT1716 640 736 R270
SYMATTR InstName U8
TEXT 1224 -280 Left 2 ;PROBES
TEXT -1160 216 Left 2 !PWR
TEXT -1160 248 Left 2 !BATT
TEXT -1424 -32 Left 2 !ON/OFF
TEXT -1416 0 Left 2 !HERE
TEXT -1424 152 Left 2 !6 VDC
TEXT -1416 32 Left 2 ;<------
TEXT -552 -224 Left 2 ;OSC
TEXT 80 -224 Left 2 ;mulltistable flipflop
TEXT -1272 1064 Left 2 ;shaort detector
TEXT -888 1064 Left 2 ;ESR detector
TEXT 488 1048 Left 2 ;display circuit
TEXT 488 -232 Left 2 ;output to DUT
TEXT 1000 -232 Left 2 ;protection
TEXT -1392 -240 Left 2 ;power/batt indicator
For those who do not have LTSpice, the schematic is at :

http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/7/71823/thing01.jpg

Please download/save it and do not keep going there. Because of how their software
is written it allows me to use them for images. They are good folk and I do not want
to piss them off. But for educational purposes, it should be alright for now. 

Anyway, the device is in several parts. Of course first of all is powering the
thing. I think I can do it on 6 volts. The power indicator will light until the
batteries are deemed weak and the reading should not be considered like when it is
on. The unit will still operate but the reading may be slewed. I find it illogical
to have a light light when the batteries are low, why drain them  more at such a
time ? 

Next to it on the right is an oscillator that won't work. I realized that later, but
it is not hard to fix. I was looking into a phase shift oscillator but they are
known for being able to put out a halfway clean sine wave. I do not need that. I
just need a stable frequency of pulses to make the flipflop to the right change
states. that pretty much guarantees me a 50 % duty cycle, which is what I want and
the reason comes clear later. 

To the right of that is the test signal generator the output of which is fed to the
DUT after modification by R 16 & 17 which make the output 200 mV P-P positive going
at about 360 ohms output impedance. This is fed to the test probes and the DUT is
expected to short out the AC component of it. 

It is applied to the test tester or whatever, lower left on the bottom. First on the
schem is the DC detector. THAT i s the reason for the positive going signal. If the
test leads are shorted the light lights. 

It also goes to the ESR detector system. That is through a high pass filter and then
diode detected, that is whatever the cap did not shunt. That could be calibrated
somehow to ESR in ohms but that is not what I want. I want to know if it is good
enough to work in a circuit. And I want it FAST. 

I have used a bunch of ESR meters and put up with "Click" and the light is on for 2
seconds saying "Discharging". IT WASN'T CHARGED ! I do not want to spend 2 seconds
on each cap, you know how many of those there are ? So this read almost immediately.
It is protected against charged caps, and you can tell other things with it. 

We'll get into that later. Right now, have a look and try to understand. And by the
way, I am just a good hack, not an engineer. You don't need a degree to design.
 jurb...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > It also goes to the ESR detector system. That is through a high pass > filter and then diode detected, that is whatever the cap did not shunt. > That could be calibrated somehow to ESR in ohms but that is not what I want. > I want to know if it is good enough to work in a circuit. And I want it FAST. > >
** For that to be the case, YOU have to know in ADVANCE what the acceptable ESR readings are for each electro you need to test. I regularly work on valve / tube amplifiers and am therefore familiar with ESR readings for high voltage electros in the range of 22 to 220 uF. No need to look up any lists and my spares stock is available to compare readings with new parts. For example, the 5 or 6 HV filter electros in most Fender tube amps can be checked and evaluated with a Bob Parker meter in under 1 minute. The small cathode bypass ones take about another minute and you are done. Of course, extremely old caps and any that show signs of having oozed electrolyte get replaced - no questions. ..... Phil
>"** For that to be the case, YOU have to know in ADVANCE what the acceptable ESR
readings are for each electro you need to test. " Not so much. The ones that are bad were stressed more, the others in the unit of the same make and age may not have been and not as much of the electrolyte has been boiled out. In circuits of the latter type, ESR is not that critical. Nut with the high pass filter it makes the value less important. So acceptable ESR readings are not going to be found on a chart. What's more. my device does not actually read ESR in a lab type fashion, it is meant more as a go/nogo tool to speed up troubleshooting, even for those who can't really troubleshoot. Even in the user manual for this thing I would include to look at the positive (or whatever) lead and look to see if it is green and to look for any of them bulging. My goal is to keep as much of this stuff out of the dumpster (skip) as possible.
>"I regularly work on valve / tube amplifiers and am therefore familiar with ESR
readings for high voltage electros in the range of 22 to 220 uF. No need to look up any lists and my spares stock is available to compare readings with new parts. " With your experience you don't have to look up shit. you can say right away, "This is good", "This is marginal" and "This is bad". But I do realize that many, especially novices have not had that inculcated into them. For them all I can say is change the worst first.
>"For example, the 5 or 6 HV filter electros in most Fender tube amps can be checked
and evaluated with a Bob Parker meter in under 1 minute. The small cathode bypass ones take about another minute and you are done. " Yeah, double or even triple the secondary voltage and the condition of the caps becomes quite important.
>"Of course, extremely old caps and any that show signs of having oozed electrolyte
get replaced - no questions. " Have you noticed that most of them took a hell of alot longer to go bad ? Anyway, I think my doodad can be useful to novices as well as masters. Very fast. In a power supply, clip one lead to ground and check all of them, a minute ? That's like an 8086 compared to today's processors. A minute to chack a cap ? That is an eternity. There is the Dick Smith, fine and good. But for servicing you don't need to know between 1.7 and 1.8. Why ?
On 7/6/2018 6:17 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:
>> "** For that to be the case, YOU have to know in ADVANCE what the acceptable ESR
readings are for each electro you need to test."
> > Not so much. The ones that are bad were stressed more, the others in the unit of
the same make and age may not have been and not as much of the electrolyte has been boiled out. In circuits of the latter type, ESR is not that critical. Nut with the high pass filter it makes the value less important.
> > So acceptable ESR readings are not going to be found on a chart. What's more. my
device does not actually read ESR in a lab type fashion, it is meant more as a go/nogo tool to speed up troubleshooting, even for those who can't really troubleshoot.
> > Even in the user manual for this thing I would include to look at the positive (or
whatever) lead and look to see if it is green and to look for any of them bulging. My goal is to keep as much of this stuff out of the dumpster (skip) as possible.
> >> "I regularly work on valve / tube amplifiers and am therefore familiar with ESR
readings for high voltage electros in the range of 22 to 220 uF. No need to look up any lists and my spares stock is available to compare readings with new parts."
> > With your experience you don't have to look up shit. you can say right away, "This
is good", "This is marginal" and "This is bad". But I do realize that many, especially novices have not had that inculcated into them.
> > For them all I can say is change the worst first. > >> "For example, the 5 or 6 HV filter electros in most Fender tube amps can be
checked and evaluated with a Bob Parker meter in under 1 minute. The small cathode bypass ones take about another minute and you are done."
> > Yeah, double or even triple the secondary voltage and the condition of the caps
becomes quite important.
> >> "Of course, extremely old caps and any that show signs of having oozed
electrolyte get replaced - no questions."
> > Have you noticed that most of them took a hell of alot longer to go bad ? > > Anyway, I think my doodad can be useful to novices as well as masters. Very fast.
In a power supply, clip one lead to ground and check all of them, a minute ? That's like an 8086 compared to today's processors. A minute to chack a cap ? That is an eternity.
> > There is the Dick Smith, fine and good. But for servicing you don't need to know
between 1.7 and 1.8. Why ?
>
Here's a video, most of it uses a scope to see the results of the test, but at the end of the video he does show test with results on an analog meter.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=115erzCCxgE
Mikek
On 7/6/2018 7:31 PM, amdx wrote:
> On 7/6/2018 6:17 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote: >>> "** For that to be the case, YOU have to know in ADVANCE what the >>> acceptable ESR readings are for each electro you need to test." >> >> Not so much. The ones that are bad were stressed more, the others in >> the unit of the same make and age may not have been and not as much of >> the electrolyte has been boiled out. In circuits of the latter type, >> ESR is not that critical. Nut with the high pass filter it makes the >> value less important. >> >> So acceptable ESR readings are not going to be found on a chart. >> What's more. my device does not actually read ESR in a lab type >> fashion, it is meant more as a go/nogo tool to speed up >> troubleshooting, even for those who can't really troubleshoot. >> >> Even in the user manual for this thing I would include to look at the >> positive (or whatever) lead and look to see if it is green and to look >> for any of them bulging. My goal is to keep as much of this stuff out >> of the dumpster (skip) as possible. >> >>> "I regularly work on valve / tube amplifiers and am therefore >>> familiar with ESR readings for high voltage electros in the range of >>> 22 to 220 uF. No need to look up any lists and my spares stock is >>> available to compare readings with new parts." >> >> With your experience you don't have to look up shit. you can say right >> away, "This is good", "This is marginal" and "This is bad". But I do >> realize that many, especially novices have not had that inculcated >> into them. >> >> For them all I can say is change the worst first. >> >>> "For example, the 5 or 6 HV filter electros in most Fender tube amps >>> can be checked and evaluated with a Bob Parker meter in under 1 >>> minute. The small cathode bypass ones take about another minute and >>> you are done." >> >> Yeah, double or even triple the secondary voltage and the condition of >> the caps becomes quite important. >> >>> "Of course, extremely old caps and any that show signs of having >>> oozed electrolyte get replaced -&nbsp; no questions." >> >> Have you noticed that most of them took a hell of alot longer to go bad ? >> >> Anyway, I think my doodad can be useful to novices as well as masters. >> Very fast. In a power supply, clip one lead to ground and check all of >> them, a minute ? That's like an 8086 compared to today's processors. A >> minute to chack a cap ? That is an eternity. >> >> There is the Dick Smith, fine and good. But for servicing you don't >> need to know between 1.7 and 1.8. Why ? >> > > &nbsp; Here's a video, most of it uses a scope to see the results of the > test, but at the end of the video he does show test with results on an > analog meter. >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=115erzCCxgE > >
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Mikek Found his analog design here. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmYAgat-sOQ Mikek
On 7/6/2018 7:55 PM, amdx wrote:
> On 7/6/2018 7:31 PM, amdx wrote: >> On 7/6/2018 6:17 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote: >>>> "** For that to be the case, YOU have to know in ADVANCE what the >>>> acceptable ESR readings are for each electro you need to test." >>> >>> Not so much. The ones that are bad were stressed more, the others in >>> the unit of the same make and age may not have been and not as much >>> of the electrolyte has been boiled out. In circuits of the latter >>> type, ESR is not that critical. Nut with the high pass filter it >>> makes the value less important. >>> >>> So acceptable ESR readings are not going to be found on a chart. >>> What's more. my device does not actually read ESR in a lab type >>> fashion, it is meant more as a go/nogo tool to speed up >>> troubleshooting, even for those who can't really troubleshoot. >>> >>> Even in the user manual for this thing I would include to look at the >>> positive (or whatever) lead and look to see if it is green and to >>> look for any of them bulging. My goal is to keep as much of this >>> stuff out of the dumpster (skip) as possible. >>> >>>> "I regularly work on valve / tube amplifiers and am therefore >>>> familiar with ESR readings for high voltage electros in the range of >>>> 22 to 220 uF. No need to look up any lists and my spares stock is >>>> available to compare readings with new parts." >>> >>> With your experience you don't have to look up shit. you can say >>> right away, "This is good", "This is marginal" and "This is bad". But >>> I do realize that many, especially novices have not had that >>> inculcated into them. >>> >>> For them all I can say is change the worst first. >>> >>>> "For example, the 5 or 6 HV filter electros in most Fender tube amps >>>> can be checked and evaluated with a Bob Parker meter in under 1 >>>> minute. The small cathode bypass ones take about another minute and >>>> you are done." >>> >>> Yeah, double or even triple the secondary voltage and the condition >>> of the caps becomes quite important. >>> >>>> "Of course, extremely old caps and any that show signs of having >>>> oozed electrolyte get replaced -&nbsp; no questions." >>> >>> Have you noticed that most of them took a hell of alot longer to go >>> bad ? >>> >>> Anyway, I think my doodad can be useful to novices as well as >>> masters. Very fast. In a power supply, clip one lead to ground and >>> check all of them, a minute ? That's like an 8086 compared to today's >>> processors. A minute to chack a cap ? That is an eternity. >>> >>> There is the Dick Smith, fine and good. But for servicing you don't >>> need to know between 1.7 and 1.8. Why ? >>> >> >> &nbsp;&nbsp; Here's a video, most of it uses a scope to see the results of the >> test, but at the end of the video he does show test with results on an >> analog meter. >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=115erzCCxgE >> >>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Mikek
> > Found his analog design here. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmYAgat-sOQ > >
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Mikek And another one, > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fiUZZlveS0
jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >"** For that to be the case, YOU have to know in ADVANCE what the > acceptable ESR readings are for each electro you need to test. " > > > Not so much. >
** Here comes the same old bullshit plus a massive context change. " The ones that are bad were stressed more, the others in the unit of the same make and age may not have been and not as much of the electrolyte has been boiled out. In circuits of the latter type, ESR is not that critical. Nut with the high pass filter it makes the value less important. " ** Goble-de-gook.
> So acceptable ESR readings are not going to be found on a chart.
** Non sequitur. " What's more. my device does not actually read ESR in a lab type fashion, it is meant more as a go/nogo tool to speed up troubleshooting, even for those who can't really troubleshoot. " ** The fool's device exist only in his imagination.
> > >"For example, the 5 or 6 HV filter electros in most Fender tube amps can be
checked and evaluated with a Bob Parker meter in under 1 minute. The small cathode bypass ones take about another minute and you are done. "
> > Yeah, double or even triple the secondary voltage and the condition > of the caps becomes quite important. >
** Insane crap !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. All the HV electros would EXPLOD if you did that.
> >"Of course, extremely old caps and any that show signs of having oozed
electrolyte get replaced - no questions. "
> > Have you noticed that most of them took a hell of alot longer to go bad ? >
** No.
> > There is the Dick Smith, fine and good. But for servicing you don't need > to know between 1.7 and 1.8. Why ?
** 2 digit resolution is hardly excessive. Wot a demented moron. .... Phil
>" Here's a video, most of it uses a scope to see the results of the
test, but at the end of the video he does show test with results on an analog meter.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=115erzCCxgE
Mikek" I invented that, of course probably so did a few other people. I found that for most service work 0-400 mV was fine and I used 1 KHz with about a 360 ohm impedance. In fact I recently did a writeup on it at groups.io with pictures of the waveforms resulting to illustrate how to use it. The lower voltage applied to the DUT doesn't bother the semiconductor junctions, I guess it would with Schottky diodes but not much else. Originally I used the 2 volt probe calibrator of a Tek 422, but back then there were still tube/valve sets. Some even had selenium rectifiers and 2 volts doesn't bother them much.