The LM339 spec sheet indicates the maximum negative input voltage should not be more than -0.3 volts. The schematic shows the input connected to the base of a PNP transistor with the collector at the negative supply terminal. So, it looks like if the input or base of the transistor goes more negative than about 0.7 volts relative to the negative supply point, the transistor will conduct like a diode from base to collector. Is this situation acceptable, and will the comparator work with one input equal to the negative supply (0 volts) while the other is -0.7 volts below the negative supply point? -Bill
LM339 Comparator input limits?
Started by ●May 24, 2012
Reply by ●May 24, 20122012-05-24
On Wed, 23 May 2012 20:58:31 -0700 (PDT), Bill Bowden <bperryb@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> wrote:>The LM339 spec sheet indicates the maximum negative input voltage >should not be more than -0.3 volts. The schematic shows the input >connected to the base of a PNP transistor with the collector at the >negative supply terminal. So, it looks like if the input or base of >the transistor goes more negative than about 0.7 volts relative to the >negative supply point, the transistor will conduct like a diode from >base to collector. Is this situation acceptable, and will the >comparator work with one input equal to the negative supply (0 volts) >while the other is -0.7 volts below the negative supply point? > >-BillThe 339, like the LM324, has some sneak paths that squirt current all around the chip if you pull any input much below ground. One such pulled-low input, even a tiny current, can freak out all four channels in weird ways. It's better to not allow any input to go negative. The severity seems to vary among vendors, with the classic National part being really, really bad. -- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators Custom timing and laser controllers Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Reply by ●May 24, 20122012-05-24
On Thu, 24 May 2012 07:29:05 -0700 John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in Message id: <34hsr7p3tp0msi7g1om00edd6m0m08to95@4ax.com>:>On Wed, 23 May 2012 20:58:31 -0700 (PDT), Bill Bowden ><bperryb@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> wrote: > >>The LM339 spec sheet indicates the maximum negative input voltage >>should not be more than -0.3 volts. The schematic shows the input >>connected to the base of a PNP transistor with the collector at the >>negative supply terminal. So, it looks like if the input or base of >>the transistor goes more negative than about 0.7 volts relative to the >>negative supply point, the transistor will conduct like a diode from >>base to collector. Is this situation acceptable, and will the >>comparator work with one input equal to the negative supply (0 volts) >>while the other is -0.7 volts below the negative supply point? >> >>-Bill > >The 339, like the LM324, has some sneak paths that squirt current all >around the chip if you pull any input much below ground. One such >pulled-low input, even a tiny current, can freak out all four channels >in weird ways. It's better to not allow any input to go negative. The >severity seems to vary among vendors, with the classic National part >being really, really bad.National was the worst eh? That explains why they don't work so well in a HP 8116A function generator's reset circuit. Which manufacturer's part is the least sensitive?
Reply by ●May 24, 20122012-05-24
On Thu, 24 May 2012 11:08:31 -0400, JW <none@dev.null> wrote:>On Thu, 24 May 2012 07:29:05 -0700 John Larkin ><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in Message id: ><34hsr7p3tp0msi7g1om00edd6m0m08to95@4ax.com>: > >>On Wed, 23 May 2012 20:58:31 -0700 (PDT), Bill Bowden >><bperryb@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> wrote: >> >>>The LM339 spec sheet indicates the maximum negative input voltage >>>should not be more than -0.3 volts. The schematic shows the input >>>connected to the base of a PNP transistor with the collector at the >>>negative supply terminal. So, it looks like if the input or base of >>>the transistor goes more negative than about 0.7 volts relative to the >>>negative supply point, the transistor will conduct like a diode from >>>base to collector. Is this situation acceptable, and will the >>>comparator work with one input equal to the negative supply (0 volts) >>>while the other is -0.7 volts below the negative supply point? >>> >>>-Bill >> >>The 339, like the LM324, has some sneak paths that squirt current all >>around the chip if you pull any input much below ground. One such >>pulled-low input, even a tiny current, can freak out all four channels >>in weird ways. It's better to not allow any input to go negative. The >>severity seems to vary among vendors, with the classic National part >>being really, really bad. > >National was the worst eh? That explains why they don't work so well in a >HP 8116A function generator's reset circuit. Which manufacturer's part is >the least sensitive?I don't know. JT claimed that the Motorola parts were better, but I don't know if they can still be had... perhaps from OnSemi. There are probably drop-ins from someone else, with a different process. A honkin' schottky clamp diode will probably help. -- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators Custom timing and laser controllers Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Reply by ●May 24, 20122012-05-24
On Thu, 24 May 2012 08:23:12 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:>On Thu, 24 May 2012 11:08:31 -0400, JW <none@dev.null> wrote: > >>On Thu, 24 May 2012 07:29:05 -0700 John Larkin >><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in Message id: >><34hsr7p3tp0msi7g1om00edd6m0m08to95@4ax.com>: >> >>>On Wed, 23 May 2012 20:58:31 -0700 (PDT), Bill Bowden >>><bperryb@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> wrote: >>> >>>>The LM339 spec sheet indicates the maximum negative input voltage >>>>should not be more than -0.3 volts. The schematic shows the input >>>>connected to the base of a PNP transistor with the collector at the >>>>negative supply terminal. So, it looks like if the input or base of >>>>the transistor goes more negative than about 0.7 volts relative to the >>>>negative supply point, the transistor will conduct like a diode from >>>>base to collector. Is this situation acceptable, and will the >>>>comparator work with one input equal to the negative supply (0 volts) >>>>while the other is -0.7 volts below the negative supply point? >>>> >>>>-Bill >>> >>>The 339, like the LM324, has some sneak paths that squirt current all >>>around the chip if you pull any input much below ground. One such >>>pulled-low input, even a tiny current, can freak out all four channels >>>in weird ways. It's better to not allow any input to go negative. The >>>severity seems to vary among vendors, with the classic National part >>>being really, really bad. >> >>National was the worst eh? That explains why they don't work so well in a >>HP 8116A function generator's reset circuit. Which manufacturer's part is >>the least sensitive? > >I don't know. JT claimed that the Motorola parts were better, but I >don't know if they can still be had... perhaps from OnSemi. There are >probably drop-ins from someone else, with a different process. A >honkin' schottky clamp diode will probably help.When I last used them in production, late '80's, Motorola's 339 was best because they had split up the bias; but that same bias structure implemented in their 324 had the worst cross-over distortion. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by ●May 24, 20122012-05-24
On May 24, 7:29=A0am, John Larkin <jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:> On Wed, 23 May 2012 20:58:31 -0700 (PDT), Bill Bowden > > <bper...@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> wrote: > >The LM339 spec sheet indicates the maximum negative input voltage > >should not be more than -0.3 volts. The schematic shows the input > >connected to the base of a PNP transistor with the collector at the > >negative supply terminal. So, it looks like if the input or base of > >the transistor goes more negative than about 0.7 volts relative to the > >negative supply point, the transistor will conduct like a diode from > >base to collector. Is this situation acceptable, and will the > >comparator work with one input equal to the negative supply (0 volts) > >while the other is -0.7 volts below the negative supply point? > > >-Bill > > The 339, like the LM324, has some sneak paths that squirt current all > around the chip if you pull any input much below ground. One such > pulled-low input, even a tiny current, can freak out all four channels > in weird ways. It's better to not allow any input to go negative. The > severity seems to vary among vendors, with the classic National part > being really, really bad. >How about using a diode across the input to limit the negative voltage? The comparator input reads about 1000 using a DMM to check diode drops. A silicon diode reads about 800, so it seems a diode across the comparator input to ground would absorb all the reverse current? -Bill
Reply by ●May 24, 20122012-05-24
On Thu, 24 May 2012 18:00:20 -0700 (PDT), Bill Bowden <bperryb@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> wrote:>On May 24, 7:29�am, John Larkin ><jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >> On Wed, 23 May 2012 20:58:31 -0700 (PDT), Bill Bowden >> >> <bper...@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> wrote: >> >The LM339 spec sheet indicates the maximum negative input voltage >> >should not be more than -0.3 volts. The schematic shows the input >> >connected to the base of a PNP transistor with the collector at the >> >negative supply terminal. So, it looks like if the input or base of >> >the transistor goes more negative than about 0.7 volts relative to the >> >negative supply point, the transistor will conduct like a diode from >> >base to collector. Is this situation acceptable, and will the >> >comparator work with one input equal to the negative supply (0 volts) >> >while the other is -0.7 volts below the negative supply point? >> >> >-Bill >> >> The 339, like the LM324, has some sneak paths that squirt current all >> around the chip if you pull any input much below ground. One such >> pulled-low input, even a tiny current, can freak out all four channels >> in weird ways. It's better to not allow any input to go negative. The >> severity seems to vary among vendors, with the classic National part >> being really, really bad. >> > >How about using a diode across the input to limit the negative >voltage? The comparator input reads about 1000 using a DMM to check >diode drops. A silicon diode reads about 800, so it seems a diode >across the comparator input to ground would absorb all the reverse >current? > >-BillAs I recall, a silicon PN diode isn't good enough. The chip screws up at lower voltages than you'd expect from the ESD diode drop. Both the Fairchild and National data sheets rate the abs max input voltage range as -0.3 to +36. That -0.3 number seems to be serious. A power schottky diode might work, if it keeps the negative swing below -0.3. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com http://www.highlandtechnology.com Precision electronic instrumentation Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators Custom laser drivers and controllers Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro acquisition and simulation
Reply by ●June 2, 20122012-06-02
On Thu, 24 May 2012 18:14:18 -0700, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:>On Thu, 24 May 2012 18:00:20 -0700 (PDT), Bill Bowden ><bperryb@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> wrote: > >>On May 24, 7:29�am, John Larkin >><jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >>> On Wed, 23 May 2012 20:58:31 -0700 (PDT), Bill Bowden >>> >>> <bper...@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> wrote: >>> >The LM339 spec sheet indicates the maximum negative input voltage >>> >should not be more than -0.3 volts. The schematic shows the input >>> >connected to the base of a PNP transistor with the collector at the >>> >negative supply terminal. So, it looks like if the input or base of >>> >the transistor goes more negative than about 0.7 volts relative to the >>> >negative supply point, the transistor will conduct like a diode from >>> >base to collector. Is this situation acceptable, and will the >>> >comparator work with one input equal to the negative supply (0 volts) >>> >while the other is -0.7 volts below the negative supply point? >>> >>> >-Bill >>> >>> The 339, like the LM324, has some sneak paths that squirt current all >>> around the chip if you pull any input much below ground. One such >>> pulled-low input, even a tiny current, can freak out all four channels >>> in weird ways. It's better to not allow any input to go negative. The >>> severity seems to vary among vendors, with the classic National part >>> being really, really bad. >>> >> >>How about using a diode across the input to limit the negative >>voltage? The comparator input reads about 1000 using a DMM to check >>diode drops. A silicon diode reads about 800, so it seems a diode >>across the comparator input to ground would absorb all the reverse >>current? >> >>-Bill > >As I recall, a silicon PN diode isn't good enough. The chip screws up >at lower voltages than you'd expect from the ESD diode drop. Both the >Fairchild and National data sheets rate the abs max input voltage >range as -0.3 to +36. That -0.3 number seems to be serious. > >A power schottky diode might work, if it keeps the negative swing >below -0.3.The "quality" way to do it, avoiding leaky Schottky's or finding a Germanium diode, is an active clamp, as I demonstrated several years ago in a 4-20mA circuit for Spehro... http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/SpehroLoopProtect2.pdf The 324/339 input stage architecture is a Darlington differential pair made up of lateral PNP's, with an NPN mirror load on the inner pair of PNP's. This "screws up" if driven below ground by a Vbe, because a lateral device doesn't know its emitter from its collector, never mind a hole in the ground. Thus a positive input pulled below ground causes a phase reversal and the output rises instead of continuing to fall. Driven hard, this could inject current into the substrate and upset things, but I've never seen that... rational designers limit current ;-) Another effect is what I think Larkin confuses with the front-end below ground... take inputs too high and lateral PNP mirrors saturate. Cheapy approaches, in certain brands, used split collector arrangements rather than separate-well devices, so one mirror saturating screws all sections of the device. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by ●June 2, 20122012-06-02
Jim Thompson wrote:> On Thu, 24 May 2012 18:14:18 -0700, John Larkin > <jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: > > >>On Thu, 24 May 2012 18:00:20 -0700 (PDT), Bill Bowden >><bperryb@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> wrote: >> >> >>>On May 24, 7:29 am, John Larkin >>><jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >>> >>>>On Wed, 23 May 2012 20:58:31 -0700 (PDT), Bill Bowden >>>> >>>><bper...@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> wrote: >>>> >>>>>The LM339 spec sheet indicates the maximum negative input voltage >>>>>should not be more than -0.3 volts. The schematic shows the input >>>>>connected to the base of a PNP transistor with the collector at the >>>>>negative supply terminal. So, it looks like if the input or base of >>>>>the transistor goes more negative than about 0.7 volts relative to the >>>>>negative supply point, the transistor will conduct like a diode from >>>>>base to collector. Is this situation acceptable, and will the >>>>>comparator work with one input equal to the negative supply (0 volts) >>>>>while the other is -0.7 volts below the negative supply point? >>>> >>>>>-Bill >>>> >>>>The 339, like the LM324, has some sneak paths that squirt current all >>>>around the chip if you pull any input much below ground. One such >>>>pulled-low input, even a tiny current, can freak out all four channels >>>>in weird ways. It's better to not allow any input to go negative. The >>>>severity seems to vary among vendors, with the classic National part >>>>being really, really bad. >>>> >>> >>>How about using a diode across the input to limit the negative >>>voltage? The comparator input reads about 1000 using a DMM to check >>>diode drops. A silicon diode reads about 800, so it seems a diode >>>across the comparator input to ground would absorb all the reverse >>>current? >>> >>>-Bill >> >>As I recall, a silicon PN diode isn't good enough. The chip screws up >>at lower voltages than you'd expect from the ESD diode drop. Both the >>Fairchild and National data sheets rate the abs max input voltage >>range as -0.3 to +36. That -0.3 number seems to be serious. >> >>A power schottky diode might work, if it keeps the negative swing >>below -0.3. > > > The "quality" way to do it, avoiding leaky Schottky's or finding a > Germanium diode, is an active clamp, as I demonstrated several years > ago in a 4-20mA circuit for Spehro... > > http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/SpehroLoopProtect2.pdf > > The 324/339 input stage architecture is a Darlington differential pair > made up of lateral PNP's, with an NPN mirror load on the inner pair of > PNP's. > > This "screws up" if driven below ground by a Vbe, because a lateral > device doesn't know its emitter from its collector, never mind a hole > in the ground. > > Thus a positive input pulled below ground causes a phase reversal and > the output rises instead of continuing to fall. > > Driven hard, this could inject current into the substrate and upset > things, but I've never seen that... rational designers limit current > ;-) > > Another effect is what I think Larkin confuses with the front-end > below ground... take inputs too high and lateral PNP mirrors saturate. > Cheapy approaches, in certain brands, used split collector > arrangements rather than separate-well devices, so one mirror > saturating screws all sections of the device. > > ...Jim ThompsonVCC | - ^ high speed diode + lowest R possible | ___ | +------+|___|+--+---------------+ To Comp input Unknown signal |+ | + - ^ high speed diode | === GND (created by AACircuit v1.28.6 beta 04/19/05 www.tech-chat.de) I am just throwing shit again the wall ! Jamie
Reply by ●June 2, 20122012-06-02
On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 16:50:10 -0400, Jamie <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:>Jim Thompson wrote: >> On Thu, 24 May 2012 18:14:18 -0700, John Larkin >> <jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >> >> >>>On Thu, 24 May 2012 18:00:20 -0700 (PDT), Bill Bowden >>><bperryb@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>On May 24, 7:29 am, John Larkin >>>><jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>>On Wed, 23 May 2012 20:58:31 -0700 (PDT), Bill Bowden >>>>> >>>>><bper...@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>The LM339 spec sheet indicates the maximum negative input voltage >>>>>>should not be more than -0.3 volts. The schematic shows the input >>>>>>connected to the base of a PNP transistor with the collector at the >>>>>>negative supply terminal. So, it looks like if the input or base of >>>>>>the transistor goes more negative than about 0.7 volts relative to the >>>>>>negative supply point, the transistor will conduct like a diode from >>>>>>base to collector. Is this situation acceptable, and will the >>>>>>comparator work with one input equal to the negative supply (0 volts) >>>>>>while the other is -0.7 volts below the negative supply point? >>>>> >>>>>>-Bill >>>>> >>>>>The 339, like the LM324, has some sneak paths that squirt current all >>>>>around the chip if you pull any input much below ground. One such >>>>>pulled-low input, even a tiny current, can freak out all four channels >>>>>in weird ways. It's better to not allow any input to go negative. The >>>>>severity seems to vary among vendors, with the classic National part >>>>>being really, really bad. >>>>> >>>> >>>>How about using a diode across the input to limit the negative >>>>voltage? The comparator input reads about 1000 using a DMM to check >>>>diode drops. A silicon diode reads about 800, so it seems a diode >>>>across the comparator input to ground would absorb all the reverse >>>>current? >>>> >>>>-Bill >>> >>>As I recall, a silicon PN diode isn't good enough. The chip screws up >>>at lower voltages than you'd expect from the ESD diode drop. Both the >>>Fairchild and National data sheets rate the abs max input voltage >>>range as -0.3 to +36. That -0.3 number seems to be serious. >>> >>>A power schottky diode might work, if it keeps the negative swing >>>below -0.3. >> >> >> The "quality" way to do it, avoiding leaky Schottky's or finding a >> Germanium diode, is an active clamp, as I demonstrated several years >> ago in a 4-20mA circuit for Spehro... >> >> http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/SpehroLoopProtect2.pdf >> >> The 324/339 input stage architecture is a Darlington differential pair >> made up of lateral PNP's, with an NPN mirror load on the inner pair of >> PNP's. >> >> This "screws up" if driven below ground by a Vbe, because a lateral >> device doesn't know its emitter from its collector, never mind a hole >> in the ground. >> >> Thus a positive input pulled below ground causes a phase reversal and >> the output rises instead of continuing to fall. >> >> Driven hard, this could inject current into the substrate and upset >> things, but I've never seen that... rational designers limit current >> ;-) >> >> Another effect is what I think Larkin confuses with the front-end >> below ground... take inputs too high and lateral PNP mirrors saturate. >> Cheapy approaches, in certain brands, used split collector >> arrangements rather than separate-well devices, so one mirror >> saturating screws all sections of the device. >> >> ...Jim Thompson > > VCC > | > - > ^ high speed diode > + > lowest R possible | > ___ | > +------+|___|+--+---------------+ To Comp input > Unknown signal |+ > | > + > - > ^ high speed diode > | > === > GND >(created by AACircuit v1.28.6 beta 04/19/05 www.tech-chat.de) > > >I am just throwing shit again the wall ! > >JamieIt's not a speed issue... an LM339 is a micro-second range slug-speed device. To avoid the problem, you need a clamp that holds at a voltage less than a silicon Vbe forward. AND: Your diode to VCC is useless, you will have already exceeded the allowed common-mode range (about 1.5V BELOW VCC) before it conducts. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
