Reply by Don Y February 10, 20232023-02-10
On 2/10/2023 5:53 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:

>>>> Have you considered how you'd move the waste heat from the >>>> switch out of that room? Chances are, closets aren't >>>> ventilated/connected to the HVAC. >>> >>> Vented doors would be fine. The PoE switch is only something like 500W >>> under full load (and, let's face it, as much as I push around the house, >>> the switch is hardly under much load). > >> Remember, most of the power (heat) is dissipated in the PDs, not >> the switch. But, there are still inefficiencies in the power supply >> plus the power required for the switch, itself. > > Right -- but the switch I have here has a 250W PoE budget, and an > absolute maximum draw of ~500W (I forget the exact number, let's call it > 3.8 amps at the wall). But that's fully loaded / running flat out. I > may well spike the draw on it every now and again; but for the most part > it's probably hovering around 1/3 loaded.
But, you likely are just powering VoIP phones or other PoE switches. The devices at each drop are likely computers, laptops, etc. that are powered "locally". Their "power supply inefficiencies" are located away from the switch.
>> A 48 port switch (PoE) throws about 1600 BTU with just a ~400W PoE >> load (i.e., for a VoIP setup -- 7.5W/port). Scale that by a factor >> of 2.5 for 120 ports and you're at 4000BTU. > >> [...] > >> 4000BTU in a 6x6 space (a modest closet?), 8 ft ceiling leads to >> ~ *50* degree temperature rise. > > Enclosed, sure. Vent the doors man :) . Honestly though; even 24 > ports is pretty "sufficient" for most houses; at least around here.
For *computers* and "human users", yes. My ~18 RG6 drops are each paired with a network drop and phone drop. They serve "conventional" needs. Their number is more a consequence of wanting to address different siting requirements without having to run new cable as different needs arise ("Can we move the TV to THAT corner, instead?")
> I've done a few businesses up into the 100+ range; and have argued heat > with them on numerous occasions (although I really do like the ones who > don't listen and kill their kit ^_^ )
Again, different scale of installation. My drops go to "appliances" that perform specific tasks, hence the need for the PoE switch. E.g., there are 8 surveillance cameras around the exterior of the house. Each has a CPU inside to do scene analysis, motion detection, etc. -- so a "big computer" doesn't have to handle that task for ALL of the cameras (which leads to scaling problems -- when does the frame rate drop because that big computer is overtaxed?) Another camera "looks" at the party at the front door (facial recognition). Another watches his approach to the door (is anyone hiding just out of view?) Another module runs the HVAC (heat/ACbrr/evap). Another the alarm system. Twelve are "smart speakers" (music-over-IP) with internal amplifiers (10W). Three STBs. A rooftop weather station interface. Another for the irrigation system. One that controls the water supply to the house (softener, filtration, metering, etc.). Two more for the gas and electric supplies. Another for the genset. And the solar array. Six BT beacons to track the location of occupant wearing BT interfaces (to communicate with the house). Two APs. Two DTV/CATV tuners. A VoIP gateway. Interfaces to each of the major kitchen appliances. A controller for the garage door (using cameras to ensure nothing in the path of the door as it closes OR as it raises -- as well as nothing in the way of the vehicles entering the garage) Three "control panels" for traditional user interfaces (sighted users). One that drives the "display" for the patch panel (allows a user to determine the state of the nodes "at a glance" in much the same way that the idiot lights on a switch let you tell which nodes are connected/powered/active). One for the "indicator floodlight" (wicked cool) that signals drivers as they approach the garage as to conditions that might be of interest (obstacle in your path; you're not aligned properly with the space; garage door locked/occupied; etc.) Etc. Each of these things needs power to operate (each has a CPU, memory, and I/Os). It would be foolhardy to power them from local supplies (wall warts? eyesores?) as that would mean they would all be vulnerable to a power outage. The PoE switch lets me eliminate those distributed power supplies AND backup all of the loads. And, manage power -- because I can opt to power a PD up or down, based on the power that I have available (battery) and the tasks that I need to address, now.
Reply by Dan Purgert February 10, 20232023-02-10
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 2023-02-09, Don Y wrote:
> On 2/9/2023 4:41 AM, Dan Purgert wrote: >> On 2023-02-08, Don Y wrote: >>> On 2/8/2023 4:22 AM, Dan Purgert wrote: >>>> Yeah, the "extra" bedroom has one I could use. >> >>> Have you considered how you'd move the waste heat from the >>> switch out of that room? Chances are, closets aren't >>> ventilated/connected to the HVAC. >> >> Vented doors would be fine. The PoE switch is only something like 500W >> under full load (and, let's face it, as much as I push around the house, >> the switch is hardly under much load). > > Remember, most of the power (heat) is dissipated in the PDs, not > the switch. But, there are still inefficiencies in the power supply > plus the power required for the switch, itself.
Right -- but the switch I have here has a 250W PoE budget, and an absolute maximum draw of ~500W (I forget the exact number, let's call it 3.8 amps at the wall). But that's fully loaded / running flat out. I may well spike the draw on it every now and again; but for the most part it's probably hovering around 1/3 loaded.
> A 48 port switch (PoE) throws about 1600 BTU with just a ~400W PoE > load (i.e., for a VoIP setup -- 7.5W/port). Scale that by a factor > of 2.5 for 120 ports and you're at 4000BTU. > > [...] > > 4000BTU in a 6x6 space (a modest closet?), 8 ft ceiling leads to > ~ *50* degree temperature rise.
Enclosed, sure. Vent the doors man :) . Honestly though; even 24 ports is pretty "sufficient" for most houses; at least around here. I've done a few businesses up into the 100+ range; and have argued heat with them on numerous occasions (although I really do like the ones who don't listen and kill their kit ^_^ ) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE3asj+xn6fYUcweBnbWVw5UznKGAFAmPmPocACgkQbWVw5Uzn KGB5oQ//ViRhtfFQosHG1taNlTzgrj7Fv3wpyBHlLuQ928Ms90BseIXf/mujP0dv uQ3Y6aCCs2RXglQJPeoru7nKQVLUGbPafDGEYxfVi8pGohECD4BU6lE7ATcXaLQ1 a/e08UblUT0Q9rVousQUsag5BAnURJNgW2G9jSUWs3Ec9GxxMDwus780q/T5NHuf PAWQwE3OWjY+Bk1K8iA5alnVlTQNXtQxbzwtrn1lfI9b05ePQ0mhBGkFI8M3qX7g dHZEfKTQAsl0gs3teUIJzk1yBKk7xsXNEBvIAhUQPGFuwl+CZ/ZFSAY/Rl5P9cLi 6QN68Gcyk9N5TMYezto2QtFms9rRtEej5G86gfdwB8cC8QvAhjhWtwbFIKmOmrQa TolIhUX/ozG3DGr9hHHGTvyrlKIbldfGX5o6rPgPyN/yhPBMBqioqYytKMrjCtWU +cmL3B8FaQiZdHfmzoRUsA8r61Lsc+kCXhgiRGJao7QoRTO/9EZdz5rSog71dM8l sIgk4Qg4v272Okm1ROAvjMcTVxNVzyeph/S1w2KLBypcHc4hoDxqFDKsawJbKNDk 80vqEgStXCKFS4J+NTQRlmvkW57JMNkZ4a8CFmCUy0RyPrBBwV0/o0gXWcAfd//T J/FpkDWshH/MrhFOSV9Ol7csr+NdSanW46fDbfruBoUK4feSjEE= =U9eM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- |_|O|_| |_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert |O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
Reply by Don Y February 9, 20232023-02-09
On 2/9/2023 4:41 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> On 2023-02-08, Don Y wrote: >> On 2/8/2023 4:22 AM, Dan Purgert wrote: >>> Yeah, the "extra" bedroom has one I could use. > >> Have you considered how you'd move the waste heat from the >> switch out of that room? Chances are, closets aren't >> ventilated/connected to the HVAC. > > Vented doors would be fine. The PoE switch is only something like 500W > under full load (and, let's face it, as much as I push around the house, > the switch is hardly under much load).
Remember, most of the power (heat) is dissipated in the PDs, not the switch. But, there are still inefficiencies in the power supply plus the power required for the switch, itself. A 48 port switch (PoE) throws about 1600 BTU with just a ~400W PoE load (i.e., for a VoIP setup -- 7.5W/port). Scale that by a factor of 2.5 for 120 ports and you're at 4000BTU. And, that's just 7.5W per port, not the 15W per port that I use! (though I may not power all ports at the same time, I have to be able to do so without the equipment closet turning into a sauna!) It also doesn't include the power dissipated in any of the other kit located in the closet (modem, SDRs, DTV tuners, voip gateway, etc.) Or, a UPS large enough to power those PDs. 4000BTU in a 6x6 space (a modest closet?), 8 ft ceiling leads to ~ *50* degree temperature rise.
> Granted, if there were servers ... that would be a real mess for dumping > heat.
Reply by Dan Purgert February 9, 20232023-02-09
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 2023-02-08, Don Y wrote:
> On 2/8/2023 4:22 AM, Dan Purgert wrote: >> Yeah, the "extra" bedroom has one I could use. > > Have you considered how you'd move the waste heat from the > switch out of that room? Chances are, closets aren't > ventilated/connected to the HVAC.
Vented doors would be fine. The PoE switch is only something like 500W under full load (and, let's face it, as much as I push around the house, the switch is hardly under much load). Granted, if there were servers ... that would be a real mess for dumping heat. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE3asj+xn6fYUcweBnbWVw5UznKGAFAmPk3CgACgkQbWVw5Uzn KGAEGg/9F2heqgy4ojkMwLhkAmBingvyauoFeGhwZTA3Fl6BfBXJrc7+5PkvAUKI aXBEhTYbPxbjyW/KX35Gn3V4sNNp5AJEhVtDe7+LNrrfdyNz+g64FpKEgCeyWwoq gmGHvdwIf6ou3bdN2gY9l8Crr2yDsVEd0zZbuXfvY3uwZcdxlaxga2dBFF8KjjjF 1yU9xd/UMxnzT91wNGH54MeueVHWyDmeojqxhsIe1EVb/8I7BzP98MWEe/+0nqXf tO3SUESMZ/eQ2J/J57ADVnK8TDre19pqN5eI7uc8Hsd56EPmiFF4o6D823FCPzhE 2Rp5x6oQ1R/dwAIyUApAiMZCIgkEs5fTPkc1AiYeabP1ZuzwWL5t4CXQb0PhkNxI iqaRFRV7QPlOO02sDnNviCLHitJzvR/d6JHkhIduSY1zk5B7Q17yBWBgpXHoZdaT TS3POdsJMcqthYWNhfZ8SufLC3M6o2TlpCTRArmTaVi5guqyUsxmssHsMRqF/Tot 0BDe2UvyJF38bhvbzR7kGU5dOyavH49zSRlR+qAfWvsI+zlekJKaJadOy86o7jri x80/FqggmbP7LLJcxOYpl1NbOdnhB6BRRE3RwqlAAhoya0zpj97nfufyjLCIbFGj tKqiZA8RmjaRS3NrzDUqspgwwxAXgDRKfhwT3I3/T5D+A7Ql2Eo= =pRBw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- |_|O|_| |_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert |O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
Reply by Don Y February 8, 20232023-02-08
On 2/8/2023 4:22 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>> I'd have probably made the "Distribution Point" and "Equipment Closet" >>> the same place -- that way you have one (1) centralized location for all >>> the terminations, rather than having to mess about in multiple >>> locations. > >> That works fine if you are building a house and planning for where the >> kit will be installed, ahead of time. If you limit your market >> to folks who are willing to move into new construction... > >> But, retrofitting a home is a different story. > > I did that in my old house (built '65), and am planning it in the new > (built '66; IIRC). But then again, "networking" is what I do; so > pulling cables to "retrofit" the place isn't daunting.
Pulling cables is just tedious -- and requires lots of drywall work (if you have neither a basement or attic). Finding the location to pull them *to* is more work. By definition, it will be in "living space" (garages are too hot). And, it (likely) *won't* be in some well-used room (you aren't going to splatter kit and cable on the wall in your living room!)
>> None of the homes, here, have basements. Few have attics. None have >> attics that are suitable for occupation. I.e., shallow pitch roofs >> mean even working in an attic is difficult (I wired some outlets for >> a neighbor to string XMAS lights and was on my knees the whole time). > >> So, in your *habitable* space, look around and see if you have a >> closet that you can sacrifice. Most homes that I've lived in or >> visited have *a* "guest closet" (for visitors coats, etc.). The >> remainder are bedroom closets. (Our guest closet, here, is home >> to the vacuum- and carpet- cleaners, along with the few "overcoats" >> we have) > > Yeah, the "extra" bedroom has one I could use.
Have you considered how you'd move the waste heat from the switch out of that room? Chances are, closets aren't ventilated/connected to the HVAC. (The issue of installing a 20A circuit for the 2KW switch is manageable)
> Alternatively, there's > this weird niche I could wall/door off as well in another bedroom. But > then again, we do have a basement here; so can just pull everything down > there and just build my equipment closet (room) down there.
The preferred solution -- *if* you have a basement (esp if unfinished). The homes I've lived in that had basements were all "finished" so this just moved the upstairs problem, downstairs. But, all had "workshops" or "furnace rooms" so those rooms could tolerate a jungle of wire and kit (or, hide it up between the floor joists)
>>> There are (or were) some pretty nice A/V hubs for a while at >>> home-improvement stores as well; but I haven't looked for/at them in >>> about 5 years; so they might be gone nowadays. > >> This is a different scale of installation. I've examined the A/V setups >> friends have -- usually just a bunch of splitters/distribution amps >> and a fixed wiring configuration. Wherever the TV is, today, it's >> gonna stay (unless you want to run a length of coax across the floor >> to a new location). > > Yes, but you're talking about building a distribution system; so why not > suggest a product that isn't just your bog-standard $10 Radio Shack > splitter that "eh works" but has -6 dB on the outputs?
I'm using distribution amps -- no loss across the amplifier-splitter. Splitting to 18-way would be too big of a (passive) loss, otherwise. But, have to select for low voltage powered as I can't run mains power to it. It doesn't solve the anything-to-anything problem, though. Or, the accessibility/maintenance issue.
>> Homes that change their minds as to where phone/CATV outlets should >> be located are pretty obvious to any passerby: you'll see the >> service cable traveling down the EXTERIOR wall of the house and >> dive into a hole bored through the wall at "outlet level". > >> Folks who want outlets installed in *interior* walls will see a >> length of pipe (usually PVC) protruding from the rooftop with >> the service wire crossing the rooftop, climbing the pipe and >> plunging into it (the pipe feeds into the wallspace of interest; >> no idea how they figure out where the walls intersect with the roof!) > > This makes me ever-more-glad for my flexible drill extension for > punching thru the wall plates... just gotta remember where it got > stashed in the move...
Easier if you're resigned to open up the walls and ceilings. (A great excuse to PAINT!!) :> I've about 7000 ft of network cable, here, not counting the network used for my "computers" (consider: roughly 10 ft to get up into the ceiling and another 10 ft to get back down so you've not moved laterally and have used up ~2500 ft of cable). Trying to route it all "blind" would have been a nightmare. With gas forced air, there are lots of possibilities to route *along* ducts (avoiding plenum cable). 100+ drops makes for a pretty thick bundle of wire! (similarly for the RG6Q, though fewer conductors. The telco bundles are tiny, by comparison)
Reply by Dan Purgert February 8, 20232023-02-08
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 2023-02-07, Don Y wrote:
> On 2/7/2023 4:56 AM, Dan Purgert wrote: >> On 2023-02-07, Don Y wrote: >>> I've run RG6Q to all of the rooms/likely destinations in the house. >>> Usually, that's 2 per bedroom (for siting options), 3 or 4 for the >>> larger rooms (living room, family room, etc.). Singletons into >>> my lab, back porch, etc. Maybe 18-20 "drops", in total. >> >>> [...] >> >>> I've run 6 travelers from the distribution point to my >>> equipment closet. Cable modem and "network tuners" are >>> located there. So, an external CATV line could take one >>> traveler into the equipment room, feed the modem and/or >>> network tuners and then head back (on another traveler) >>> to feed the distribution to the rest of the house. >> >>> [...] >> >>> The problem lies in coming up with a reasonably flexible >>> wiring configuration that doesn't necessitate rejiggering >>> in the "attic" as needs change. It's REALLY not a very >>> convenient operation to perform! >> >>> [...] >> >>> While a complete solution may not be obvious, are there any >>> guidelines I can use to rule out configurations that are >>> unlikely? And, how to address the grounds (esp at the distribution >>> point) >> >> I'd have probably made the "Distribution Point" and "Equipment Closet" >> the same place -- that way you have one (1) centralized location for all >> the terminations, rather than having to mess about in multiple >> locations. > > That works fine if you are building a house and planning for where the > kit will be installed, ahead of time. If you limit your market > to folks who are willing to move into new construction... > > But, retrofitting a home is a different story.
I did that in my old house (built '65), and am planning it in the new (built '66; IIRC). But then again, "networking" is what I do; so pulling cables to "retrofit" the place isn't daunting.
> > None of the homes, here, have basements. Few have attics. None have > attics that are suitable for occupation. I.e., shallow pitch roofs > mean even working in an attic is difficult (I wired some outlets for > a neighbor to string XMAS lights and was on my knees the whole time). > > So, in your *habitable* space, look around and see if you have a > closet that you can sacrifice. Most homes that I've lived in or > visited have *a* "guest closet" (for visitors coats, etc.). The > remainder are bedroom closets. (Our guest closet, here, is home > to the vacuum- and carpet- cleaners, along with the few "overcoats" > we have)
Yeah, the "extra" bedroom has one I could use. Alternatively, there's this weird niche I could wall/door off as well in another bedroom. But then again, we do have a basement here; so can just pull everything down there and just build my equipment closet (room) down there.
> [...] > >> There are (or were) some pretty nice A/V hubs for a while at >> home-improvement stores as well; but I haven't looked for/at them in >> about 5 years; so they might be gone nowadays. > > This is a different scale of installation. I've examined the A/V setups > friends have -- usually just a bunch of splitters/distribution amps > and a fixed wiring configuration. Wherever the TV is, today, it's > gonna stay (unless you want to run a length of coax across the floor > to a new location).
Yes, but you're talking about building a distribution system; so why not suggest a product that isn't just your bog-standard $10 Radio Shack splitter that "eh works" but has -6 dB on the outputs?
> Homes that change their minds as to where phone/CATV outlets should > be located are pretty obvious to any passerby: you'll see the > service cable traveling down the EXTERIOR wall of the house and > dive into a hole bored through the wall at "outlet level". > > Folks who want outlets installed in *interior* walls will see a > length of pipe (usually PVC) protruding from the rooftop with > the service wire crossing the rooftop, climbing the pipe and > plunging into it (the pipe feeds into the wallspace of interest; > no idea how they figure out where the walls intersect with the roof!)
This makes me ever-more-glad for my flexible drill extension for punching thru the wall plates... just gotta remember where it got stashed in the move... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE3asj+xn6fYUcweBnbWVw5UznKGAFAmPjhhsACgkQbWVw5Uzn KGCZAxAAsmwLFmiqtAT+VrNO0x5q5NAgMIhPbSz4fPSf3yKdSm3fPiF4RGFNTmF2 6yoHP2tKwhM08aZ1ESoCF+z3lQSwFbK0fC6UhedttpqDsG0ikjaSJ9rmE2Pmwelx VWaf0YNpFN2F/UfCrb0VzAsQd1JcKj1pOBg1scsKRGMj3UJNJkRAMFG4akiz6aiy sfG+gkahdRNwIPFi6PT/eThuKDqGq18NC+valLA9ToVbCStAzEhyPMkfs/tpV/kY cHyLjbwaTG1IsGYajQK968nnjZ2+PyJaYQMZ3BPBXFNfSWjO6TeEb3Nb6VSlGxW2 YoJG5OU/diNXA+kvXdM/ce8r1trhgpy2l6vU4VFnM5v/y3HqvujWNyFB6qKs3GJv KXBWWEB+pa5RgdmF9ggMiRPUTI1XdrGzAN3X2uqnb+gABIaEexjO7Cz78zUD0n+f 6YJvCfEjq5veChgyJIe9DVP519bIhlRVwKkNOsCMOQU/Tz9BN6a98FSODJ1VRs6i nH21CRtUAV5Ko+LHZEOoJ25J1027j5Lyx+YiELAbvub8gPrSGMGTU2s9TTRvdKEU gyL1rEm4/ej56kcMrkuAQ/N4re3yZh2qJMhpV9meXwvmklTaCvMNtC2CLDLQNhdA ILiSyH9mePq4Ky9ycbpr2eUcBs1CbA0Yl3vgB1gQihReOD11Oug= =GcCT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- |_|O|_| |_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert |O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
Reply by Don Y February 7, 20232023-02-07
On 2/7/2023 4:56 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> On 2023-02-07, Don Y wrote: >> I've run RG6Q to all of the rooms/likely destinations in the house. >> Usually, that's 2 per bedroom (for siting options), 3 or 4 for the >> larger rooms (living room, family room, etc.). Singletons into >> my lab, back porch, etc. Maybe 18-20 "drops", in total. > >> [...] > >> I've run 6 travelers from the distribution point to my >> equipment closet. Cable modem and "network tuners" are >> located there. So, an external CATV line could take one >> traveler into the equipment room, feed the modem and/or >> network tuners and then head back (on another traveler) >> to feed the distribution to the rest of the house. > >> [...] > >> The problem lies in coming up with a reasonably flexible >> wiring configuration that doesn't necessitate rejiggering >> in the "attic" as needs change. It's REALLY not a very >> convenient operation to perform! > >> [...] > >> While a complete solution may not be obvious, are there any >> guidelines I can use to rule out configurations that are >> unlikely? And, how to address the grounds (esp at the distribution >> point) > > I'd have probably made the "Distribution Point" and "Equipment Closet" > the same place -- that way you have one (1) centralized location for all > the terminations, rather than having to mess about in multiple > locations.
That works fine if you are building a house and planning for where the kit will be installed, ahead of time. If you limit your market to folks who are willing to move into new construction... But, retrofitting a home is a different story. None of the homes, here, have basements. Few have attics. None have attics that are suitable for occupation. I.e., shallow pitch roofs mean even working in an attic is difficult (I wired some outlets for a neighbor to string XMAS lights and was on my knees the whole time). So, in your *habitable* space, look around and see if you have a closet that you can sacrifice. Most homes that I've lived in or visited have *a* "guest closet" (for visitors coats, etc.). The remainder are bedroom closets. (Our guest closet, here, is home to the vacuum- and carpet- cleaners, along with the few "overcoats" we have) Some have "utility/laundry" rooms, but likely aren't suited as homes for a bunch of wires and equipment. So, you adopt solutions that don't REQUIRE an "equipment closet", /per se/, but can tolerate bits of kit sited wherever possible. (your antenna isn't bolted to the back of your TV, is it?) E.g., here, I have the coax distribution *in* a ceiling space. It is subject to moderate temperatures (beyond those of the living space) but not outrageous ones. There's no mains power up there (and adding an outlet would raise eyebrows: "Is this a normally accessible space?") but I can push power up a length of coax with a power injector. The tuners/SDR are located in a pantry (tucked under the bottom shelf soas not to be an eyesore -- yet accessible for service and maintained in habitable temperatures). Can't dissipate too much power in that closed space as there's no normal ventilation *in* a pantry. Access points and locator beacons are located *on* the ceilings of various closets/pantries, in ceiling spaces, garage, etc. so they are accessible yet not particularly distracting ("Hey, what's this white blob on the ceiling in your pantry?") The 120 port, 2KW PoE switch hugs the ceiling in the laundry room; you won't see the patch cables unless you look up. Yet, you can service the switch and cabling with relative ease. (and have to be able to move the waste heat out of that space) The 2KW UPS resides in my lab with a dedicated circuit to the switch. And, all of the rest of the kit (motes/field) reside in walls and above ceilings so they don't clutter the living space (if you need to access a bit of kit, pull the wall plate off its Jbox, reach inside and pull it out). Look at your home and think about all the other homes in which you've resided or occupied. Which space would you assign to such a use? (now, imagine no basement or attic and repeat the exercise)
> There are (or were) some pretty nice A/V hubs for a while at > home-improvement stores as well; but I haven't looked for/at them in > about 5 years; so they might be gone nowadays.
This is a different scale of installation. I've examined the A/V setups friends have -- usually just a bunch of splitters/distribution amps and a fixed wiring configuration. Wherever the TV is, today, it's gonna stay (unless you want to run a length of coax across the floor to a new location). Homes that change their minds as to where phone/CATV outlets should be located are pretty obvious to any passerby: you'll see the service cable traveling down the EXTERIOR wall of the house and dive into a hole bored through the wall at "outlet level". Folks who want outlets installed in *interior* walls will see a length of pipe (usually PVC) protruding from the rooftop with the service wire crossing the rooftop, climbing the pipe and plunging into it (the pipe feeds into the wallspace of interest; no idea how they figure out where the walls intersect with the roof!) I think we've come up with a path to a solution; a few assumptions that aren't immediately obvious become so, on closer inspection. I just have to decide on the right set of equipment and make those purchases... (this has been a thorn in my side for a LONG time!)
Reply by Dan Purgert February 7, 20232023-02-07
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 2023-02-07, Don Y wrote:
> I've run RG6Q to all of the rooms/likely destinations in the house. > Usually, that's 2 per bedroom (for siting options), 3 or 4 for the > larger rooms (living room, family room, etc.). Singletons into > my lab, back porch, etc. Maybe 18-20 "drops", in total. > > [...] > > I've run 6 travelers from the distribution point to my > equipment closet. Cable modem and "network tuners" are > located there. So, an external CATV line could take one > traveler into the equipment room, feed the modem and/or > network tuners and then head back (on another traveler) > to feed the distribution to the rest of the house. > > [...] > > The problem lies in coming up with a reasonably flexible > wiring configuration that doesn't necessitate rejiggering > in the "attic" as needs change. It's REALLY not a very > convenient operation to perform! > > [...] > > While a complete solution may not be obvious, are there any > guidelines I can use to rule out configurations that are > unlikely? And, how to address the grounds (esp at the distribution > point)
I'd have probably made the "Distribution Point" and "Equipment Closet" the same place -- that way you have one (1) centralized location for all the terminations, rather than having to mess about in multiple locations. There are (or were) some pretty nice A/V hubs for a while at home-improvement stores as well; but I haven't looked for/at them in about 5 years; so they might be gone nowadays. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE3asj+xn6fYUcweBnbWVw5UznKGAFAmPiPLwACgkQbWVw5Uzn KGAGfg//bnw0vn6557PsG3QeaWgh2B1sKn+w0AvfMCEIXmJJcyapXXAny/j7fyU6 +aytDv7enXF5l4vUGMDF9nJ+3XDmy02nihBPbMZB4fTcCP1lHLvnhnsvh2QwuNJO rccI2mUtxvaa87OKMvG0D1yCDaFiaBX4xhXm5WVxZtHpVYNoq1YgH0vVP+gECNyR QijV3B8DcndT2+rFW0zZXm9KLxYLHQZ81qaSMwHBvSxxb9kjkCzRxjdly3zqEhpd lJblF/KwYOqpI/YcuLtYsdk3D5Uno2p4x6Zpzr5hILGXf3xg7n9LLeVNbFiq7YYm BJCuwpmpWX5g5+CHw4FLZw8szN3BMYKtI/M0asVMjKhfPFvEn8qWcobQryv9Wf9z LeTbG/H/pQD3N+c1lc6Ku6ZP6C3Fjm83n48wHlbP47EJ6vHZoMjAjUrLba1cm1zF yEeQILemd5wmxxG5G0QXfkboYq9UIh3Kox7I1RcT06JwdUycaHCowCAKydD8usb9 x/XXfMyHCVSUhjnBG37rsxxhQKJXTT7eNyRc4zJxohbdW8YCc1QQuIQrzB8cmrOk /88JybaKQ0Wtbx/YdTOuq5ZS5bVjqv3aZ0BfCbqBQgYm3AJ2gafWhE3ZwKsqRZVl s5KSe93k6Eo+ZrdMkP8cyTWys+exmqTAw3UYDIuw9GXcyvStW+A= =7899 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- |_|O|_| |_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert |O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
Reply by Don Y February 6, 20232023-02-06
[This is an edited version of an email I've sent to a few
colleagues.  Posted here in the hopes that others might have
some technical advice]

I've run RG6Q to all of the rooms/likely destinations in the house.
Usually, that's 2 per bedroom (for siting options), 3 or 4 for the
larger rooms (living room, family room, etc.).  Singletons into
my lab, back porch, etc.  Maybe 18-20 "drops", in total.

Of course, it's unlikely that more than 1/2 (1/3?) of them could see
concurrent use.  But, the main distribution point is hard to
access (consider it an unfinished attic) so you wouldn't want
to have to visit it to rejigger cabling!

There are two feeds from "outside" for CATV service.  And, two
antennae (local radio & TV).  All terminate at the distribution
point.

I've run 6 travelers from the distribution point to my
equipment closet.  Cable modem and "network tuners" are
located there.  So, an external CATV line could take one
traveler into the equipment room, feed the modem and/or
network tuners and then head back (on another traveler)
to feed the distribution to the rest of the house.

[if an occupant didn't want the TV-over-IP solution, they
could still put cable ready TVs in the house -- or, a
converter box, or locate a modem on the end of a drop, etc.]

We presently have a couple of HiFis (tuners) which will
ultimately be replaced by SDR and media tank (she's not
keen on me taking away her existing radios:  "They work
just fine, for me, thankyouverymuch!")  So, in the
short term, I've routed one of the antennae to the radios
(which doesn't consume a traveler as the antennae are
terminated in the "attic" distribution center; I could
conceivably feed that source to all drops in much the
same way as the CATV feeds)

[But, she can be seen as representative of a future user;
not keen on music-over-IP!  The Beta site will likely have
equally "strong opinions"... <frown>]

The problem lies in coming up with a reasonably flexible
wiring configuration that doesn't necessitate rejiggering
in the "attic" as needs change.  It's REALLY not a very
convenient operation to perform!

And, with ~20 drops, there's a significant loss in
passive splitters.  So, adding some gain -- and powering
it -- becomes another issue.

I'd originally thought to treat each room as a single
drop and put a splitter to subdivide the signal among
the drops in that room.  One could argue that you could
eliminate that splitter if you assume a room only needs
*one* drop -- but can't figure out WHICH it will use!

[This already doesn't work as there are rooms with
TVs and HiFis *not* sharing a single drop]

Another thought was to affix gain upstream of each splitter
equal to the losses in that splitter.

But, to be able to route anything, anywhere, you'd need
multiple large splitters and rely on the user to move
drops from one splitter to another, as appropriate.

[I wish I had some of the coaxial selectors from the FST!
Put one on each drop fed by the various sources...  :> ]

When I'm done, the basic approach has to scale to other/larger
homes, hence the reason for overthinking this installation!

While a complete solution may not be obvious, are there any
guidelines I can use to rule out configurations that are
unlikely?  And, how to address the grounds (esp at the distribution
point)