Reply by Lasse Langwadt Christensen●January 19, 20232023-01-19
torsdag den 19. januar 2023 kl. 13.06.58 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 16:14:20 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
> <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:
>
> >onsdag den 18. januar 2023 kl. 19.48.54 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
> >> On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 17:43:12 GMT, Jan Panteltje
> >> <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On a sunny day (Wed, 18 Jan 2023 08:18:21 -0800) it happened John Larkin
> >> ><jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
> >> ><626gshlmh4f38bp5b...@4ax.com>:
> >> >
> >> >>On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 13:37:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje
> >> >><pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>>>On Tue, 17 Jan 2023 06:27:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje
> >> >>>><pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>Ok, I had a quick look at that RP2040, there seem to be 2 versions from Raspberry
> >> >>>>and a lot of others using the chip:
> >> >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RP2040.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>I also downloaded the datasheet, the pdf has 636 pages.. later!
> >> >>>>clock is not that fast, via PLL 125 MHz, (page 187).
> >> >>>>My 18F14K22 PICs run at 64 MHz via internal PLL
> >> >>>
> >> >>>OK I did read all 636 pages of the datasheet just now.
> >> >>>What I do not like for starters is the 12 bit ADC uses the 3.3 V supply as referene it seems,
> >> >>>see page 566 specifically.
> >> >>
> >> >>They are clear that one can add a bandgap to pin 35 of the Pico, or
> >> >>force an external reference.
> >> >
> >> >Must have missed that.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>>My PIC ADC has a programmable internal reference (1, 2, or 4 times 1,24 V)
> >> >>>
> >> >>>Also my PIC has 2 hardware comparators, one can reset the PMW for cycle by cycle current limit.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>Am I imagining this or is this hardware bloat design by them?
> >> >>>Not even on on-board EEPROM like my PICs have...
> >> >>
> >> >>2 Mbyte serial flash on the Pico. That should be plenty for a
> >> >>reasonable product.
> >> >
> >> >The nice point of EEPROM is for example keep settings after power down, calibration of things.
> >> We'd need in the 2M flash, per unit, the runtime code, the calibration
> >> table, sometimes an FPGA bit stream, and a release notes text file.
> >> Some of the runtime code, the fast ISR for one of the ARM cores, would
> >> be relocated into SRAM at powerup time. That might be another file in
> >> the flash. I've got to figure that out.
> >
> >I've not tried it yet, but as far I can tell you just decorate the function with __not_in_flash_func
> >in the code then the linker and bootloader figures it all out for you
> >
> >
> >
> It sounds like the Pi people have done everything right.
On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Jan 2023 04:06:47 -0800) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
<mbcish92mj940l3cilbbt83lmj83hjjl1u@4ax.com>:
>I am thinking that there are lots of cases where a dedicated 133 MHz
>ARM core can replace an FPGA.
Reply by Anthony William Sloman●January 19, 20232023-01-19
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:06:58 PM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 16:14:20 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:
> >onsdag den 18. januar 2023 kl. 19.48.54 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
> >> On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 17:43:12 GMT, Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >On a sunny day (Wed, 18 Jan 2023 08:18:21 -0800) it happened John Larkin <jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in <626gshlmh4f38bp5b...@4ax.com>:
> >> >>On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 13:37:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>On Tue, 17 Jan 2023 06:27:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
<snip>
> It sounds like the Pi people have done everything right. I need a maker-space refugee kid who has time to work out the details. I just want to design circuits.
Sadly., John Laarkin doesn't seem to know what designing circuits entails. Working out the details is part of the process.
> I am thinking that there are lots of cases where a dedicated 133 MHz ARM core can replace an FPGA.
An ARM core is a single-threaded processor. With an FPGA you can set up genuinely parallel processes and have them operating simultaneously, and only communicating when they need to. It's a pretty basic distinction.
If you are essentially using the FPGA to realise a standard processor (and you can program them to include an ARM core) you could replace that FPGA with the right off-the-shelf processor, but it would be a pretty bizarre design assignment that lead you to do that - you'd have to need lots of odd peripherals in a single package to make it worth doing.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by John Larkin●January 19, 20232023-01-19
On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 16:14:20 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:
>onsdag den 18. januar 2023 kl. 19.48.54 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
>> On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 17:43:12 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>> <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On a sunny day (Wed, 18 Jan 2023 08:18:21 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>> ><jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
>> ><626gshlmh4f38bp5b...@4ax.com>:
>> >
>> >>On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 13:37:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>> >><pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>>On Tue, 17 Jan 2023 06:27:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>> >>>><pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>Ok, I had a quick look at that RP2040, there seem to be 2 versions from Raspberry
>> >>>>and a lot of others using the chip:
>> >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RP2040.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>I also downloaded the datasheet, the pdf has 636 pages.. later!
>> >>>>clock is not that fast, via PLL 125 MHz, (page 187).
>> >>>>My 18F14K22 PICs run at 64 MHz via internal PLL
>> >>>
>> >>>OK I did read all 636 pages of the datasheet just now.
>> >>>What I do not like for starters is the 12 bit ADC uses the 3.3 V supply as referene it seems,
>> >>>see page 566 specifically.
>> >>
>> >>They are clear that one can add a bandgap to pin 35 of the Pico, or
>> >>force an external reference.
>> >
>> >Must have missed that.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>>My PIC ADC has a programmable internal reference (1, 2, or 4 times 1,24 V)
>> >>>
>> >>>Also my PIC has 2 hardware comparators, one can reset the PMW for cycle by cycle current limit.
>> >>>
>> >>>Am I imagining this or is this hardware bloat design by them?
>> >>>Not even on on-board EEPROM like my PICs have...
>> >>
>> >>2 Mbyte serial flash on the Pico. That should be plenty for a
>> >>reasonable product.
>> >
>> >The nice point of EEPROM is for example keep settings after power down, calibration of things.
>> We'd need in the 2M flash, per unit, the runtime code, the calibration
>> table, sometimes an FPGA bit stream, and a release notes text file.
>> Some of the runtime code, the fast ISR for one of the ARM cores, would
>> be relocated into SRAM at powerup time. That might be another file in
>> the flash. I've got to figure that out.
>
>I've not tried it yet, but as far I can tell you just decorate the function with __not_in_flash_func
>in the code then the linker and bootloader figures it all out for you
>
>
>
It sounds like the Pi people have done everything right. I need a
maker-space refugee kid who has time to work out the details. I just
want to design circuits.
I am thinking that there are lots of cases where a dedicated 133 MHz
ARM core can replace an FPGA.
Reply by Lasse Langwadt Christensen●January 18, 20232023-01-18
onsdag den 18. januar 2023 kl. 19.48.54 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 17:43:12 GMT, Jan Panteltje
> <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On a sunny day (Wed, 18 Jan 2023 08:18:21 -0800) it happened John Larkin
> ><jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
> ><626gshlmh4f38bp5b...@4ax.com>:
> >
> >>On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 13:37:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje
> >><pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>>On Tue, 17 Jan 2023 06:27:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje
> >>>><pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>Ok, I had a quick look at that RP2040, there seem to be 2 versions from Raspberry
> >>>>and a lot of others using the chip:
> >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RP2040.
> >>>>
> >>>>I also downloaded the datasheet, the pdf has 636 pages.. later!
> >>>>clock is not that fast, via PLL 125 MHz, (page 187).
> >>>>My 18F14K22 PICs run at 64 MHz via internal PLL
> >>>
> >>>OK I did read all 636 pages of the datasheet just now.
> >>>What I do not like for starters is the 12 bit ADC uses the 3.3 V supply as referene it seems,
> >>>see page 566 specifically.
> >>
> >>They are clear that one can add a bandgap to pin 35 of the Pico, or
> >>force an external reference.
> >
> >Must have missed that.
> >
> >
> >
> >>>My PIC ADC has a programmable internal reference (1, 2, or 4 times 1,24 V)
> >>>
> >>>Also my PIC has 2 hardware comparators, one can reset the PMW for cycle by cycle current limit.
> >>>
> >>>Am I imagining this or is this hardware bloat design by them?
> >>>Not even on on-board EEPROM like my PICs have...
> >>
> >>2 Mbyte serial flash on the Pico. That should be plenty for a
> >>reasonable product.
> >
> >The nice point of EEPROM is for example keep settings after power down, calibration of things.
> We'd need in the 2M flash, per unit, the runtime code, the calibration
> table, sometimes an FPGA bit stream, and a release notes text file.
> Some of the runtime code, the fast ISR for one of the ARM cores, would
> be relocated into SRAM at powerup time. That might be another file in
> the flash. I've got to figure that out.
I've not tried it yet, but as far I can tell you just decorate the function with __not_in_flash_func
in the code then the linker and bootloader figures it all out for you
Reply by John Larkin●January 18, 20232023-01-18
On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 17:43:12 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On a sunny day (Wed, 18 Jan 2023 08:18:21 -0800) it happened John Larkin
><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
><626gshlmh4f38bp5b04ujafcs9hb0qg4pk@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 13:37:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>On Tue, 17 Jan 2023 06:27:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>>>><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Ok, I had a quick look at that RP2040, there seem to be 2 versions from Raspberry
>>>>and a lot of others using the chip:
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RP2040.
>>>>
>>>>I also downloaded the datasheet, the pdf has 636 pages.. later!
>>>>clock is not that fast, via PLL 125 MHz, (page 187).
>>>>My 18F14K22 PICs run at 64 MHz via internal PLL
>>>
>>>OK I did read all 636 pages of the datasheet just now.
>>>What I do not like for starters is the 12 bit ADC uses the 3.3 V supply as referene it seems,
>>>see page 566 specifically.
>>
>>They are clear that one can add a bandgap to pin 35 of the Pico, or
>>force an external reference.
>
>Must have missed that.
>
>
>
>>>My PIC ADC has a programmable internal reference (1, 2, or 4 times 1,24 V)
>>>
>>>Also my PIC has 2 hardware comparators, one can reset the PMW for cycle by cycle current limit.
>>>
>>>Am I imagining this or is this hardware bloat design by them?
>>>Not even on on-board EEPROM like my PICs have...
>>
>>2 Mbyte serial flash on the Pico. That should be plenty for a
>>reasonable product.
>
>The nice point of EEPROM is for example keep settings after power down, calibration of things.
We'd need in the 2M flash, per unit, the runtime code, the calibration
table, sometimes an FPGA bit stream, and a release notes text file.
Some of the runtime code, the fast ISR for one of the ARM cores, would
be relocated into SRAM at powerup time. That might be another file in
the flash. I've got to figure that out.
>
>
>>Digikey has 200K of the 2040 chips in stock for $1, and 19K of the Pi
>>Pico board for $4. What's interesting is that the pricing is for any
>>quantity. The Pi foundation probably requires that.
>>
>>They are mostly back-ordered or EOL on the other ARMs that we have
>>used, and are price gouging at that.
>
>18F14K22 has 16k FLASH, 256 bytes EEPROM
>you could store your FPGA code in the FLASH for example (dunno how many bytes you need)
>sleep mode 34 nA for the PIC 18LF1XK22
>Hobby shop in UK has 30 in stock
>Aliexpres has 100 for about 200$ it says.
>Many analog inputs, DAC output, PWM generator, serial, but no USB
>But I have cheap serial to USB modules from ebay for my projects.
>I program the PICs is ASM, so far no problems, even controls my drone,
>radiation meters (PMT based too), clock, bench power supply, camera motion control,
>FM transmitter, fluxgate compass, thermocouple tester, step motor control, many thing
> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html
>none of those ever gave a problem!
>
>Anyways, let us know how that module pans out!
>
>gm2pic has been on 24/7 now since 2011, the OLED display did suffer burn in,
>replaced that by a new one,..
>12 years is pretty good data retention for its FLASH.
>
>No, if I needed more computer power and/or C programming then I would get the Raspberry Pi 4
>It seems halfway this year they will pop up again? By the zillions?
>Anyways you have one now, so have fun!
>Do not give it away to your 'programmer' :-)
I'd just buy 10 more from Amazon and make sure that are all set up the
same.
Reply by Jan Panteltje●January 18, 20232023-01-18
On a sunny day (Wed, 18 Jan 2023 08:18:21 -0800) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
<626gshlmh4f38bp5b04ujafcs9hb0qg4pk@4ax.com>:
>On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 13:37:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje
><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>>On Tue, 17 Jan 2023 06:27:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>>><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Ok, I had a quick look at that RP2040, there seem to be 2 versions from Raspberry
>>>and a lot of others using the chip:
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RP2040.
>>>
>>>I also downloaded the datasheet, the pdf has 636 pages.. later!
>>>clock is not that fast, via PLL 125 MHz, (page 187).
>>>My 18F14K22 PICs run at 64 MHz via internal PLL
>>
>>OK I did read all 636 pages of the datasheet just now.
>>What I do not like for starters is the 12 bit ADC uses the 3.3 V supply as referene it seems,
>>see page 566 specifically.
>
>They are clear that one can add a bandgap to pin 35 of the Pico, or
>force an external reference.
Must have missed that.
>>My PIC ADC has a programmable internal reference (1, 2, or 4 times 1,24 V)
>>
>>Also my PIC has 2 hardware comparators, one can reset the PMW for cycle by cycle current limit.
>>
>>Am I imagining this or is this hardware bloat design by them?
>>Not even on on-board EEPROM like my PICs have...
>
>2 Mbyte serial flash on the Pico. That should be plenty for a
>reasonable product.
The nice point of EEPROM is for example keep settings after power down, calibration of things.
>Digikey has 200K of the 2040 chips in stock for $1, and 19K of the Pi
>Pico board for $4. What's interesting is that the pricing is for any
>quantity. The Pi foundation probably requires that.
>
>They are mostly back-ordered or EOL on the other ARMs that we have
>used, and are price gouging at that.
18F14K22 has 16k FLASH, 256 bytes EEPROM
you could store your FPGA code in the FLASH for example (dunno how many bytes you need)
sleep mode 34 nA for the PIC 18LF1XK22
Hobby shop in UK has 30 in stock
Aliexpres has 100 for about 200$ it says.
Many analog inputs, DAC output, PWM generator, serial, but no USB
But I have cheap serial to USB modules from ebay for my projects.
I program the PICs is ASM, so far no problems, even controls my drone,
radiation meters (PMT based too), clock, bench power supply, camera motion control,
FM transmitter, fluxgate compass, thermocouple tester, step motor control, many thing
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html
none of those ever gave a problem!
Anyways, let us know how that module pans out!
gm2pic has been on 24/7 now since 2011, the OLED display did suffer burn in,
replaced that by a new one,..
12 years is pretty good data retention for its FLASH.
No, if I needed more computer power and/or C programming then I would get the Raspberry Pi 4
It seems halfway this year they will pop up again? By the zillions?
Anyways you have one now, so have fun!
Do not give it away to your 'programmer' :-)
Reply by John Larkin●January 18, 20232023-01-18
On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 13:37:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>On Tue, 17 Jan 2023 06:27:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Ok, I had a quick look at that RP2040, there seem to be 2 versions from Raspberry
>>and a lot of others using the chip:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RP2040.
>>
>>I also downloaded the datasheet, the pdf has 636 pages.. later!
>>clock is not that fast, via PLL 125 MHz, (page 187).
>>My 18F14K22 PICs run at 64 MHz via internal PLL
>
>OK I did read all 636 pages of the datasheet just now.
>What I do not like for starters is the 12 bit ADC uses the 3.3 V supply as referene it seems,
>see page 566 specifically.
They are clear that one can add a bandgap to pin 35 of the Pico, or
force an external reference.
>
>My PIC ADC has a programmable internal reference (1, 2, or 4 times 1,24 V)
>
>Also my PIC has 2 hardware comparators, one can reset the PMW for cycle by cycle current limit.
>
>Am I imagining this or is this hardware bloat design by them?
>Not even on on-board EEPROM like my PICs have...
2 Mbyte serial flash on the Pico. That should be plenty for a
reasonable product.
>
>Its not my chip!
>
Digikey has 200K of the 2040 chips in stock for $1, and 19K of the Pi
Pico board for $4. What's interesting is that the pricing is for any
quantity. The Pi foundation probably requires that.
They are mostly back-ordered or EOL on the other ARMs that we have
used, and are price gouging at that.
Reply by Jan Panteltje●January 18, 20232023-01-18
>On Tue, 17 Jan 2023 06:27:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje
><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Ok, I had a quick look at that RP2040, there seem to be 2 versions from Raspberry
>and a lot of others using the chip:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RP2040.
>
>I also downloaded the datasheet, the pdf has 636 pages.. later!
>clock is not that fast, via PLL 125 MHz, (page 187).
>My 18F14K22 PICs run at 64 MHz via internal PLL
OK I did read all 636 pages of the datasheet just now.
What I do not like for starters is the 12 bit ADC uses the 3.3 V supply as referene it seems,
see page 566 specifically.
My PIC ADC has a programmable internal reference (1, 2, or 4 times 1,24 V)
Also my PIC has 2 hardware comparators, one can reset the PMW for cycle by cycle current limit.
Am I imagining this or is this hardware bloat design by them?
Not even on on-board EEPROM like my PICs have...
Its not my chip!
Reply by Jan Panteltje●January 18, 20232023-01-18
On a sunny day (Tue, 17 Jan 2023 12:10:21 -0800) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
<jgvdsh5f09j13nrkh6hco5uc5st0i0bu2b@4ax.com>:
>On Tue, 17 Jan 2023 17:52:08 GMT, Jan Panteltje
><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Rain has stopped here (for now, was sunny and about to go biking when hail started
>>and within seconds everything was covered by small white balls:
>> http://panteltje.com/pub/sudden_hail_IXIMG_0915.JPG
>
>Yikes, but doesn't look lethal.
2 accidents happened, there was warning about it in the news.
That stuff acts like ball bearings
you drive - into a field like that - and steering and breaking has no effect,
you will keep moving in a straight line!