> DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote in
> news:ss7p1r$fec$1...@gioia.aioe.org:
> > Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in
> > news:sr76lj$6qo$1@dont- email.me:
> snip
> > Do not know what you want but I have found the best tuner app
> > there is.
> > It has voice analysis too, and we're talking down to fine grain
> > tonal resolution.
> >
> > It is called: TE Tuner
> > It has a metronome, it has different instrument envelopes. I set
> > it to sawtooth and get FOOL spectrum. ;-) Actually that widens
> > it out past all the instruments it has in it. Very exacting,
> > useful item.
> >
> > I also have the Moog apps. WOW. A full bore synth right in my
> > hands!
> > So many sounds in it that one recognizes from movies and music of
> > the past.
> >
> > I also paid the $25 whatever for "Garage Band" which is also
> > awesome.
> >
> > The Moog and the iPad app Garage Band have midi stuff in them.
> > I
> > am sure the Moog will let you feed in your stuff, modify it and
> > feed it back out.
> >
> > Anyway. I just wanted to mention the tuner. That is an
> > excellent
> > application for apple hardware. I do not know if it is on other
> > platforms.
> >
> Has anyone checked this out? It really is one of the best tuner
> apps out there. <https://www.tonalenergy.com/>
I have dozens of brand new Ipads in LA and I want to sell them wholesale, great deals, please write me back if you can work with me
Reply by ●January 27, 20222022-01-27
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote in
news:ss7p1r$fec$1@gioia.aioe.org:
> Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in
> news:sr76lj$6qo$1@dont- email.me:
snip
> Do not know what you want but I have found the best tuner app
> there is.
> It has voice analysis too, and we're talking down to fine grain
> tonal resolution.
>
> It is called: TE Tuner
> It has a metronome, it has different instrument envelopes. I set
> it to sawtooth and get FOOL spectrum. ;-) Actually that widens
> it out past all the instruments it has in it. Very exacting,
> useful item.
>
> I also have the Moog apps. WOW. A full bore synth right in my
> hands!
> So many sounds in it that one recognizes from movies and music of
> the past.
>
> I also paid the $25 whatever for "Garage Band" which is also
> awesome.
>
> The Moog and the iPad app Garage Band have midi stuff in them.
> I
> am sure the Moog will let you feed in your stuff, modify it and
> feed it back out.
>
> Anyway. I just wanted to mention the tuner. That is an
> excellent
> application for apple hardware. I do not know if it is on other
> platforms.
>
Reply by Lasse Langwadt Christensen●January 18, 20222022-01-18
onsdag den 19. januar 2022 kl. 02.31.22 UTC+1 skrev DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:
> Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in
> news:ss7adv$uf$1...@dont-email.me:
> > On 1/18/2022 1:49 PM, Kevin Aylward wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "Rich S" wrote in message
> >> news:fa1c2bfe-a14c-419e...@googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >> On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 10:13:46 PM UTC, Don Y wrote:
> >>> On 1/8/2022 12:57 PM, John Walliker wrote:
> >>> > On Friday, 7 January 2022 at 00:15:40 UTC, Don Y wrote:
> >>> >> On 1/6/2022 12:50 PM, bitrex wrote:
> >>> >>>> I've also seen a product or two that look at the *audio*
> >>> >>>> and try to >>>>
> >>> reconstruct
> >>> >>>> the fingering from that. Theoretically possible but a fair
> >>> >>>> bit of >>>>
> >>> work to
> >>> >>>> accomplish in real-time. Not sure how that latency stacks
> >>> >>>> up with the rest of the processing chain...
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I haven't tried one of those in some time but the last I did
> >>> >>> I wasn't impressed. The G50 is reported to have an average
> >>> >>> latency of about 10 >>>
> >>> ms on the
> >>> >>> low strings and feels pretty acceptable to me (haven't
> >>> >>> measured it >>>
> >>> myself) for
> >>> >>> guitar playing that's not speed metal riffs at least.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> For playing USB keyboards though, like with virtual
> >>> >>> instruments, it >>>
> >>> has to be
> >>> >>> lower than that, I find around 2ms is about what I can
> >>> >>> tolerate, I can tell the
> >>> >>> difference between a 2ms response and a 5 ms, and 10 ms
> >>> >>> starts to feel like an
> >>> >>> eternity.
> >>> >> Well, at least there is an explicit (industry-wide)
> >>> >> acknowledgement >>
> >>> that there
> >>> >> is a significant issue, there. And, attempts to put a number
> >>> >> on it. Too >>
> >>> many
> >>> >> other interfaces just leave that unspoken -- /caveat emptor/.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I question whether the physical-virtual instruments ("funky
> >>> >> UI's that >>
> >>> try to
> >>> >> LOOSELY resemble a real instrument") end up altering *how*
> >>> >> you play. >> The "physical presence" of an instrument seems
> >>> >> to be a part of the >> performance experience; would a
> >>> >> "sousaphone emulator" (that you can hold in one >> hand)
> >>> >> *play* like a real sousaphone? Even if the emulator was a
> >>> >> 100% faithful reproduction...
> >>> >
> >>> > How about a pneumatically controlled pipe organ in a large
> >>> > church where the latency could be around 200ms?
> >>> Most wind instruments have high latency -- esp if excited by
> >>> human breath.
> >>>
> >>> My above comment was wrt the *feel* of the instrument-wannabe
> >>> vs. the real instrument. What's it like to play a "little box
> >>> with a mouthpiece" that emulates a tuba vs. having to carry the
> >>> tuba on your shoulders while trying to summon up enough air to
> >>> excite it? Does the little box represent the same "impedance" to
> >>> your windpipe as the genuine article? Do you have to move the
> >>> same amount of air to produce a particular sound?
> >>>
> >>>> [I.e., playing trills on a trumpet is a piece of cake compared
> >>>> to a trombone, baritone horn, etc. Does a trombone-emulator
> >>>> present the same PHYSICAL playing challenges as a real
> >>>> trombone?]
> >>
> >>> Latency is hard to avoid unless youre putting a pressure sensor
> >>> right at the stimulus point. For a guitar, that would be under
> >>> each fret position, for each string. i.e. ~15 x 6 = 90 sensors.
> >>
> >> Oh dear....er.... that will be 24 x 6 mate..... :-)
> >
> > Actually, "depends on the guitar"...
> >
> Don't you fret none... Frets! We don' need no stinkin' frets!
>
> 3 x what!???
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9-ltPsbw9g>
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in
news:ss7adv$uf$1@dont-email.me:
> On 1/18/2022 1:49 PM, Kevin Aylward wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Rich S" wrote in message
>> news:fa1c2bfe-a14c-419e-8b0e-d2a9e0d4c74an@googlegroups.com...
>>
>> On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 10:13:46 PM UTC, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 1/8/2022 12:57 PM, John Walliker wrote:
>>> > On Friday, 7 January 2022 at 00:15:40 UTC, Don Y wrote:
>>> >> On 1/6/2022 12:50 PM, bitrex wrote:
>>> >>>> I've also seen a product or two that look at the *audio*
>>> >>>> and try to >>>>
>>> reconstruct
>>> >>>> the fingering from that. Theoretically possible but a fair
>>> >>>> bit of >>>>
>>> work to
>>> >>>> accomplish in real-time. Not sure how that latency stacks
>>> >>>> up with the rest of the processing chain...
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I haven't tried one of those in some time but the last I did
>>> >>> I wasn't impressed. The G50 is reported to have an average
>>> >>> latency of about 10 >>>
>>> ms on the
>>> >>> low strings and feels pretty acceptable to me (haven't
>>> >>> measured it >>>
>>> myself) for
>>> >>> guitar playing that's not speed metal riffs at least.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> For playing USB keyboards though, like with virtual
>>> >>> instruments, it >>>
>>> has to be
>>> >>> lower than that, I find around 2ms is about what I can
>>> >>> tolerate, I can tell the
>>> >>> difference between a 2ms response and a 5 ms, and 10 ms
>>> >>> starts to feel like an
>>> >>> eternity.
>>> >> Well, at least there is an explicit (industry-wide)
>>> >> acknowledgement >>
>>> that there
>>> >> is a significant issue, there. And, attempts to put a number
>>> >> on it. Too >>
>>> many
>>> >> other interfaces just leave that unspoken -- /caveat emptor/.
>>> >>
>>> >> I question whether the physical-virtual instruments ("funky
>>> >> UI's that >>
>>> try to
>>> >> LOOSELY resemble a real instrument") end up altering *how*
>>> >> you play. >> The "physical presence" of an instrument seems
>>> >> to be a part of the >> performance experience; would a
>>> >> "sousaphone emulator" (that you can hold in one >> hand)
>>> >> *play* like a real sousaphone? Even if the emulator was a
>>> >> 100% faithful reproduction...
>>> >
>>> > How about a pneumatically controlled pipe organ in a large
>>> > church where the latency could be around 200ms?
>>> Most wind instruments have high latency -- esp if excited by
>>> human breath.
>>>
>>> My above comment was wrt the *feel* of the instrument-wannabe
>>> vs. the real instrument. What's it like to play a "little box
>>> with a mouthpiece" that emulates a tuba vs. having to carry the
>>> tuba on your shoulders while trying to summon up enough air to
>>> excite it? Does the little box represent the same "impedance" to
>>> your windpipe as the genuine article? Do you have to move the
>>> same amount of air to produce a particular sound?
>>>
>>>> [I.e., playing trills on a trumpet is a piece of cake compared
>>>> to a trombone, baritone horn, etc. Does a trombone-emulator
>>>> present the same PHYSICAL playing challenges as a real
>>>> trombone?]
>>
>>> Latency is hard to avoid unless youre putting a pressure sensor
>>> right at the stimulus point. For a guitar, that would be under
>>> each fret position, for each string. i.e. ~15 x 6 = 90 sensors.
>>
>> Oh dear....er.... that will be 24 x 6 mate..... :-)
>
> Actually, "depends on the guitar"...
>
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in news:sr76lj$6qo$1@dont-
email.me:
> Advice on good ("respectable") candidates for the above?
> Not keen on a guitar-wannabe "instrument"...
>
> (Also, not keen on anything that will not be able to
> completely restore axe to original condition when no
> longer needed/wanted)
>
Do not know what you want but I have found the best tuner app there
is.
It has voice analysis too, and we're talking down to fine grain tonal
resolution.
It is called: TE Tuner
It has a metronome, it has different instrument envelopes. I set it
to sawtooth and get FOOL spectrum. ;-) Actually that widens it out
past all the instruments it has in it. Very exacting, useful item.
I also have the Moog apps. WOW. A full bore synth right in my
hands!
So many sounds in it that one recognizes from movies and music of the
past.
I also paid the $25 whatever for "Garage Band" which is also
awesome.
The Moog and the iPad app Garage Band have midi stuff in them. I
am sure the Moog will let you feed in your stuff, modify it and feed
it back out.
Anyway. I just wanted to mention the tuner. That is an excellent
application for apple hardware. I do not know if it is on other
platforms.
Reply by Don Y●January 18, 20222022-01-18
On 1/18/2022 1:49 PM, Kevin Aylward wrote:
>
>
>
>
> "Rich S" wrote in message
> news:fa1c2bfe-a14c-419e-8b0e-d2a9e0d4c74an@googlegroups.com...
>
> On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 10:13:46 PM UTC, Don Y wrote:
>> On 1/8/2022 12:57 PM, John Walliker wrote:
>> > On Friday, 7 January 2022 at 00:15:40 UTC, Don Y wrote:
>> >> On 1/6/2022 12:50 PM, bitrex wrote:
>> >>>> I've also seen a product or two that look at the *audio* and try to >>>>
>> reconstruct
>> >>>> the fingering from that. Theoretically possible but a fair bit of >>>>
>> work to
>> >>>> accomplish in real-time. Not sure how that latency stacks up with the
>> >>>> rest of the processing chain...
>> >>>
>> >>> I haven't tried one of those in some time but the last I did I wasn't
>> >>> impressed. The G50 is reported to have an average latency of about 10 >>>
>> ms on the
>> >>> low strings and feels pretty acceptable to me (haven't measured it >>>
>> myself) for
>> >>> guitar playing that's not speed metal riffs at least.
>> >>>
>> >>> For playing USB keyboards though, like with virtual instruments, it >>>
>> has to be
>> >>> lower than that, I find around 2ms is about what I can tolerate, I can
>> >>> tell the
>> >>> difference between a 2ms response and a 5 ms, and 10 ms starts to feel
>> >>> like an
>> >>> eternity.
>> >> Well, at least there is an explicit (industry-wide) acknowledgement >>
>> that there
>> >> is a significant issue, there. And, attempts to put a number on it. Too >>
>> many
>> >> other interfaces just leave that unspoken -- /caveat emptor/.
>> >>
>> >> I question whether the physical-virtual instruments ("funky UI's that >>
>> try to
>> >> LOOSELY resemble a real instrument") end up altering *how* you play. >> The
>> >> "physical presence" of an instrument seems to be a part of the >> performance
>> >> experience; would a "sousaphone emulator" (that you can hold in one >> hand)
>> >> *play* like a real sousaphone? Even if the emulator was a 100% faithful
>> >> reproduction...
>> >
>> > How about a pneumatically controlled pipe organ in a large church where
>> > the latency could be around 200ms?
>> Most wind instruments have high latency -- esp if excited by
>> human breath.
>>
>> My above comment was wrt the *feel* of the instrument-wannabe vs. the
>> real instrument. What's it like to play a "little box with a mouthpiece"
>> that emulates a tuba vs. having to carry the tuba on your shoulders
>> while trying to summon up enough air to excite it? Does the little
>> box represent the same "impedance" to your windpipe as the genuine
>> article? Do you have to move the same amount of air to produce a
>> particular sound?
>>
>>> [I.e., playing trills on a trumpet is a piece of cake compared to
>>> a trombone, baritone horn, etc. Does a trombone-emulator present
>>> the same PHYSICAL playing challenges as a real trombone?]
>
>> Latency is hard to avoid unless youre putting a pressure sensor right
>> at the stimulus point. For a guitar, that would be under each fret
>> position, for each string. i.e. ~15 x 6 = 90 sensors.
>
> Oh dear....er.... that will be 24 x 6 mate..... :-)
Actually, "depends on the guitar"...
Reply by Kevin Aylward●January 18, 20222022-01-18
"Rich S" wrote in message
news:fa1c2bfe-a14c-419e-8b0e-d2a9e0d4c74an@googlegroups.com...
On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 10:13:46 PM UTC, Don Y wrote:
> On 1/8/2022 12:57 PM, John Walliker wrote:
> > On Friday, 7 January 2022 at 00:15:40 UTC, Don Y wrote:
> >> On 1/6/2022 12:50 PM, bitrex wrote:
> >>>> I've also seen a product or two that look at the *audio* and try to
> >>>> reconstruct
> >>>> the fingering from that. Theoretically possible but a fair bit of
> >>>> work to
> >>>> accomplish in real-time. Not sure how that latency stacks up with the
> >>>> rest of the processing chain...
> >>>
> >>> I haven't tried one of those in some time but the last I did I wasn't
> >>> impressed. The G50 is reported to have an average latency of about 10
> >>> ms on the
> >>> low strings and feels pretty acceptable to me (haven't measured it
> >>> myself) for
> >>> guitar playing that's not speed metal riffs at least.
> >>>
> >>> For playing USB keyboards though, like with virtual instruments, it
> >>> has to be
> >>> lower than that, I find around 2ms is about what I can tolerate, I can
> >>> tell the
> >>> difference between a 2ms response and a 5 ms, and 10 ms starts to feel
> >>> like an
> >>> eternity.
> >> Well, at least there is an explicit (industry-wide) acknowledgement
> >> that there
> >> is a significant issue, there. And, attempts to put a number on it. Too
> >> many
> >> other interfaces just leave that unspoken -- /caveat emptor/.
> >>
> >> I question whether the physical-virtual instruments ("funky UI's that
> >> try to
> >> LOOSELY resemble a real instrument") end up altering *how* you play.
> >> The
> >> "physical presence" of an instrument seems to be a part of the
> >> performance
> >> experience; would a "sousaphone emulator" (that you can hold in one
> >> hand)
> >> *play* like a real sousaphone? Even if the emulator was a 100% faithful
> >> reproduction...
> >
> > How about a pneumatically controlled pipe organ in a large church where
> > the latency could be around 200ms?
> Most wind instruments have high latency -- esp if excited by
> human breath.
>
> My above comment was wrt the *feel* of the instrument-wannabe vs. the
> real instrument. What's it like to play a "little box with a mouthpiece"
> that emulates a tuba vs. having to carry the tuba on your shoulders
> while trying to summon up enough air to excite it? Does the little
> box represent the same "impedance" to your windpipe as the genuine
> article? Do you have to move the same amount of air to produce a
> particular sound?
>
>> [I.e., playing trills on a trumpet is a piece of cake compared to
>> a trombone, baritone horn, etc. Does a trombone-emulator present
>> the same PHYSICAL playing challenges as a real trombone?]
>Latency is hard to avoid unless youre putting a pressure sensor right
>at the stimulus point. For a guitar, that would be under each fret
>position, for each string. i.e. ~15 x 6 = 90 sensors.
> On 1/15/2022 6:49 PM, Rich S wrote:
>> On Sunday, January 16, 2022 at 1:09:31 AM UTC, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 1/15/2022 6:01 PM, Rich S wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 10:13:46 PM UTC, Don Y wrote:
>>>>> On 1/8/2022 12:57 PM, John Walliker wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, 7 January 2022 at 00:15:40 UTC, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/6/2022 12:50 PM, bitrex wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I've also seen a product or two that look at the *audio* and
>>>>>>>>> try to reconstruct
>>>>>>>>> the fingering from that. Theoretically possible but a fair bit
>>>>>>>>> of work to
>>>>>>>>> accomplish in real-time. Not sure how that latency stacks up
>>>>>>>>> with the
>>>>>>>>> rest of the processing chain...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I haven't tried one of those in some time but the last I did I
>>>>>>>> wasn't
>>>>>>>> impressed. The G50 is reported to have an average latency of
>>>>>>>> about 10 ms on the
>>>>>>>> low strings and feels pretty acceptable to me (haven't measured
>>>>>>>> it myself) for
>>>>>>>> guitar playing that's not speed metal riffs at least.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For playing USB keyboards though, like with virtual instruments,
>>>>>>>> it has to be
>>>>>>>> lower than that, I find around 2ms is about what I can tolerate,
>>>>>>>> I can tell the
>>>>>>>> difference between a 2ms response and a 5 ms, and 10 ms starts
>>>>>>>> to feel like an
>>>>>>>> eternity.
>>>>>>> Well, at least there is an explicit (industry-wide)
>>>>>>> acknowledgement that there
>>>>>>> is a significant issue, there. And, attempts to put a number on
>>>>>>> it. Too many
>>>>>>> other interfaces just leave that unspoken -- /caveat emptor/.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I question whether the physical-virtual instruments ("funky UI's
>>>>>>> that try to
>>>>>>> LOOSELY resemble a real instrument") end up altering *how* you
>>>>>>> play. The
>>>>>>> "physical presence" of an instrument seems to be a part of the
>>>>>>> performance
>>>>>>> experience; would a "sousaphone emulator" (that you can hold in
>>>>>>> one hand)
>>>>>>> *play* like a real sousaphone? Even if the emulator was a 100%
>>>>>>> faithful
>>>>>>> reproduction...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How about a pneumatically controlled pipe organ in a large church
>>>>>> where
>>>>>> the latency could be around 200ms?
>>>>> Most wind instruments have high latency -- esp if excited by
>>>>> human breath.
>>>>>
>>>>> My above comment was wrt the *feel* of the instrument-wannabe vs. the
>>>>> real instrument. What's it like to play a "little box with a
>>>>> mouthpiece"
>>>>> that emulates a tuba vs. having to carry the tuba on your shoulders
>>>>> while trying to summon up enough air to excite it? Does the little
>>>>> box represent the same "impedance" to your windpipe as the genuine
>>>>> article? Do you have to move the same amount of air to produce a
>>>>> particular sound?
>>>>>
>>>>> [I.e., playing trills on a trumpet is a piece of cake compared to
>>>>> a trombone, baritone horn, etc. Does a trombone-emulator present
>>>>> the same PHYSICAL playing challenges as a real trombone?]
>>>>
>>>> Latency is hard to avoid unless youre putting a pressure sensor right
>>>> at the stimulus point. For a guitar, that would be under each fret
>>>> position, for each string. i.e. ~15 x 6 = 90 sensors.
>>>> Not use how to do *that*, reversably & non destructively.
>>>> and while not interefering with normal acoustics, ergonomics,
>>>> etc. = RS
>>> But *players* of particular instruments already have a "feel" for
>>> the inherent characteristics of an instrument and adjust their
>>> play, accordingly. Change that "feel" (because you're using an
>>> approximation of the instrument) and your "play" changes, as well.
>>>
>>> E.g., The basics of playing any horn are similar. Yet, the actual
>>> results vary considerably as the physics of the instrument vary (e.g.,
>>> with size, required air volume, etc).
>>>
>>> I'd imagine playing a ukulele to be significantly different than
>>> a double bass.
>>
>> Sure, most acoustical instruments have an inherent acousto-
>> mechanical "latency" and ergonomic factors that set a upper-
>> limit on fluent note change. You could retrofit one
>> of these types with electronics that make it outperform
>> the original instrument. :-) For a horn (lip-vibrated aero-
>> phone), we could trigger on finger- or other actions, and
>> not rely on the lip-buzz.
>> cheers, RS
>
> Yes, but the point of "instrumenting" an instrument is to
> record your *current* playing proficiency. Change the way the
> instrument plays/"feels" and do you end up turning a prodigy
> into a neophyte? The instrument is an integral part of the
> performance, alongside the performer.
It's pretty remarkable what can be done with physical modeling synthesis
of wind instruments and a breath controller nowadays:
<https://youtu.be/YJr9rmrMVpU>