On Sat, 20 Nov 2021 19:15:07 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
wrote:
>On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 3:05:19 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 22:21:27 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>
>> >... In pulse applications, there's
>> >mechanical stress to consider. as well. This little item, for instance,
>> >had a mechanical stress event
>> >
>> ><http://www.capturedlightning.com/frames/gallery/coins6.jpg>
>> >
>> >and no amount of SPICE expertise can model that issue.
>
>> That inductor sees 7 ns 1400 v pulses at up to 5 MHz. So there are no
>> mechanical effects. Or no audible ones!
>
>I wonder if the helix diameter is the same after a few million
>such hammer-blows? It isn't the RMS pressure that causes
>metal to stretch, peaks beyond elastic limit are enough.
5 MHz is 400 billion hits per day. I didn't see any change. The peak
current is only about 15 amps.
--
Father Brown's figure remained quite dark and still;
but in that instant he had lost his head. His head was
always most valuable when he had lost it.
Reply by whit3rd●November 20, 20212021-11-20
On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 3:05:19 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 22:21:27 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >... In pulse applications, there's
> >mechanical stress to consider. as well. This little item, for instance,
> >had a mechanical stress event
> >
> ><http://www.capturedlightning.com/frames/gallery/coins6.jpg>
> >
> >and no amount of SPICE expertise can model that issue.
> That inductor sees 7 ns 1400 v pulses at up to 5 MHz. So there are no
> mechanical effects. Or no audible ones!
I wonder if the helix diameter is the same after a few million
such hammer-blows? It isn't the RMS pressure that causes
metal to stretch, peaks beyond elastic limit are enough.
Reply by ●November 20, 20212021-11-20
On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 22:21:27 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
wrote:
>On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 7:16:58 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 03:59:40 -0800 (PST), amal banerjee
>> <daku...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Could some electronics suru here clarify this a bit ?
>> >A planar inductor has a frequency dependent resistance(skin, proximity effecrs). Can the small signal S parameters for such an inductor be measured using stabdard SPICE small signal(.AC) analysis ?
>> >At each frequency in a specified frequency range, the series resistance is different. Does this new resistance at each frequency have effect on the S
>> >parameter estimation.
>
>> Like these?
>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/u4yiv4p0ho2ktu4/1010VS_pair.JPG?raw=1
>>
>> I've smoked these in a pulse application, at way below rated RMS
>> current. Skin loss! I had to wind my own, which I hate to do.
>
>Oh, that's just the tip of the iceberg. In pulse applications, there's
>mechanical stress to consider. as well. This little item, for instance,
>had a mechanical stress event
>
><http://www.capturedlightning.com/frames/gallery/coins6.jpg>
>
>and no amount of SPICE expertise can model that issue.
That inductor sees 7 ns 1400 v pulses at up to 5 MHz. So there are no
mechanical effects. Or no audible ones!
--
Father Brown's figure remained quite dark and still;
but in that instant he had lost his head. His head was
always most valuable when he had lost it.
Reply by amal banerjee●November 20, 20212021-11-20
On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 3:35:48 AM UTC+5:30, Simon S Aysdie wrote:
> On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 3:59:43 AM UTC-8, daku...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Could some electronics suru here clarify this a bit ?
> > A planar inductor has a frequency dependent resistance(skin, proximity effecrs). Can the small signal S parameters for such an inductor be measured using stabdard SPICE small signal(.AC) analysis ?
> Yes. You'll need to use LAPLACE = {something}. LAPLACE does not have the troubles in .AC that it does for transient simulation. I have to say that I don't bother messing with this for the non-ferrous core coils anymore. I mean the "chip surface mount RF coils."
>
> About 15 years ago I was playing with it, and had a test file for a CCI 1008HQ_R10_ coil testing different LAPLACE usage, because I was not sure I understood it. As follows:
> =============================================
> *1008HQ_R10_multi.mod
> *Used to test various models of the 100nH 1008HQ inductor
>
> *ABS(s) 1008HQ_R10_abss Upper
> * R1 R2 Limit
> * PartNumber (OHM) (OHM) C(pF) L(_H) k (MHz)
> * 1008HQ-R10 14.0 0.160 0.210 100.00 1.31E-004 1400
> .SUBCKT 1008HQ_R10_abss 1 4
> R1 3 4 14.00
> R2 1 2 0.1600
> C1 2 3 0.210E-12
> L1 5 4 100.00E-9
> GLAP 2 5 2 5 LAPLACE = ( 1/( 1.31E-004*sqrt( abs(s)/(2*pi) ) ) )
> R99 2 5 1G
> .ENDS
> *---------------------
> * Upper
> * R1 R2 Limit
> * PartNumber (OHM) (OHM) C(pF) L(_H) k (MHz)
> * 1008HQ-R10 14.0 0.160 0.210 100.00 1.31E-004 1400
> .SUBCKT 1008HQ_R10 1 4
> R1 3 4 14.00
> R2 1 2 0.1600
> C1 2 3 0.210E-12
> L1 5 4 100.00E-9
> GLAP 2 5 2 5 LAPLACE = ( 1/( 1.31E-004*sqrt( -1*sqrt(-1)*s/(2*pi) ) ) )
> R99 2 5 1G
> .ENDS
> *---------------------
> * -j 1008HQ_R10_negj Upper
> * R1 R2 Limit
> * PartNumber (OHM) (OHM) C(pF) L(_H) k (MHz)
> * 1008HQ-R10 14.0 0.160 0.210 100.00 1.31E-004 1400
> .SUBCKT 1008HQ_R10_negj 1 4
> R1 3 4 14.00
> R2 1 2 0.1600
> C1 2 3 0.210E-12
> L1 5 4 100.00E-9
> GLAP 2 5 2 5 LAPLACE = ( 1/( 1.31E-004*sqrt( -1*sqrt(-1)*s/(2*pi) ) ) )
> R99 2 5 1G
> .ENDS
> *---------------------
> *skinEff 1008HQ_R10_skinEff Upper
> * R1 R2 Limit
> * PartNumber (OHM) (OHM) C(pF) L(_H) k (MHz)
> * 1008HQ-R10 14.0 0.160 0.210 100.00 1.31E-004 1400
> .SUBCKT 1008HQ_R10_skinEff 1 4
> R1 3 4 14.00
> R2 1 2 0.1600
> C1 2 3 0.210E-12
> L1 5 4 100.00E-9
> GLAP 2 5 2 5 LAPLACE = ( 1/( 1.31E-004*sqrt( s/(2*pi) ) ) )
> R99 2 5 1G
> .ENDS
> *---------------------
> *skinEffSqrt2 1008HQ_R10_skinEffSqrt2 Upper
> * R1 R2 Limit
> * PartNumber (OHM) (OHM) C(pF) L(_H) k (MHz)
> * 1008HQ-R10 14.0 0.160 0.210 100.00 1.31E-004 1400
> .SUBCKT 1008HQ_R10_skinEffSqrt2 1 4
> R1 3 4 14.00
> R2 1 2 0.1600
> C1 2 3 0.210E-12
> L1 5 4 100.00E-9
> GLAP 2 5 2 5 LAPLACE = ( 1/( sqrt(2)*1.31E-004*sqrt( s/(2*pi) ) ) )
> R99 2 5 1G
> .ENDS
> *---------------------
> I think I ended up using
>
> GLAP 2 5 2 5 LAPLACE = ( 1/( 1.31E-004*sqrt( -1*sqrt(-1)*s/(2*pi) ) ) )
>
> The quantity 1.31E-004*sqrt( -1*sqrt(-1)*s/(2*pi) ) looks strange, but I think it makes it real in the end, which we want for a resistor.
>
> In the end I had generated a bunch of entire CCI chip inductor family libraries. I haven't used them for many years because I just use AWR and Modelithics, and I didn't end up thinking it bought me much.
> > At each frequency in a specified frequency range, the series resistance is different. Does this new resistance at each frequency have effect on the S
> > parameter estimation.
> Yes, strictly and in principle. But the weight of importance may or may not matter depending on what you're doing.
>
>
> An example library is the following available from CCI:
>
> * SPICE MODEL SUBCIRCUIT DATA SOURCE: 026011F-spice0.txt
> * AUTO-GENERATED DATE: 29-Mar-2020 11:59:00
> * Coilcraft Inductor (CCI) Family: 026011
>
> * Dummy header part
> .SUBCKT 026011F-___ 1 4
> R1 1 4 1E-12
> .ENDS
>
> * Lower Upper
> * Limit Limit
> *PartNumber MHz MHz R1 R2 CpF k1 k2 k3 k4 k5
> * 026011F-270 1 1000 1440 0.11 0.3 7.8e-005 0.05 0.018 0.0017 5e-010
> .SUBCKT 026011F_270 1 4
> .param R1 1440
> .param R2 0.11
> .param C1 3e-013
> .param k1 7.8e-005
> .param k2 0.05
> .param k3 0.018
> .param k4 0.0017
> .param k5 5e-010
> R2 1 2 {R2}
> R1 3 4 {R1}
> C1 2 3 {C1}
> Grv1 2 5 2 5 LAPLACE={1/(k1*sqrt(1 + s/(2*pi))) }
> R98 2 5 1G
> GLv1 5 4 5 4 LAPLACE={1/(1e-3 + s*1e-6*(k3 - (k4*LOG(k5*(s/(2*pi)))))) }
> R99 5 4 1G
> Grv2 2 4 2 4 LAPLACE={1/(k2*sqrt(1 + s/(2*pi))) }
> .ENDS
>
> * Lower Upper
> * Limit Limit
> *PartNumber MHz MHz R1 R2 CpF k1 k2 k3 k4 k5
> * 026011F-720 1 1000 1080 0.4 0.22 0.000152 0.078 0.077 0.0035 5e-007
> .SUBCKT 026011F_720 1 4
> .param R1 1080
> .param R2 0.4
> .param C1 2.2e-013
> .param k1 0.000152
> .param k2 0.078
> .param k3 0.077
> .param k4 0.0035
> .param k5 5e-007
> R2 1 2 {R2}
> R1 3 4 {R1}
> C1 2 3 {C1}
> Grv1 2 5 2 5 LAPLACE={1/(k1*sqrt(1 + s/(2*pi))) }
> R98 2 5 1G
> GLv1 5 4 5 4 LAPLACE={1/(1e-3 + s*1e-6*(k3 - (k4*LOG(k5*(s/(2*pi)))))) }
> R99 5 4 1G
> Grv2 2 4 2 4 LAPLACE={1/(k2*sqrt(1 + s/(2*pi))) }
> .ENDS
>
> * Lower Upper
> * Limit Limit
> *PartNumber MHz MHz R1 R2 CpF k1 k2 k3 k4 k5
> * 026011F-151 1 1000 1480 0.6 0.088 0.000106 0.11 0.163 0.0067 5e-007
> .SUBCKT 026011F_151 1 4
> .param R1 1480
> .param R2 0.6
> .param C1 8.8e-014
> .param k1 0.000106
> .param k2 0.11
> .param k3 0.163
> .param k4 0.0067
> .param k5 5e-007
> R2 1 2 {R2}
> R1 3 4 {R1}
> C1 2 3 {C1}
> Grv1 2 5 2 5 LAPLACE={1/(k1*sqrt(1 + s/(2*pi))) }
> R98 2 5 1G
> GLv1 5 4 5 4 LAPLACE={1/(1e-3 + s*1e-6*(k3 - (k4*LOG(k5*(s/(2*pi)))))) }
> R99 5 4 1G
> Grv2 2 4 2 4 LAPLACE={1/(k2*sqrt(1 + s/(2*pi))) }
> .ENDS
>
> * Lower Upper
> * Limit Limit
> *PartNumber MHz MHz R1 R2 CpF k1 k2 k3 k4 k5
> * 026011F-271 1 1000 2200 1.15 0.027 7.6e-005 0.158 0.282 0.0106 5e-007
> .SUBCKT 026011F_271 1 4
> .param R1 2200
> .param R2 1.15
> .param C1 2.7e-014
> .param k1 7.6e-005
> .param k2 0.158
> .param k3 0.282
> .param k4 0.0106
> .param k5 5e-007
> R2 1 2 {R2}
> R1 3 4 {R1}
> C1 2 3 {C1}
> Grv1 2 5 2 5 LAPLACE={1/(k1*sqrt(1 + s/(2*pi))) }
> R98 2 5 1G
> GLv1 5 4 5 4 LAPLACE={1/(1e-3 + s*1e-6*(k3 - (k4*LOG(k5*(s/(2*pi)))))) }
> R99 5 4 1G
> Grv2 2 4 2 4 LAPLACE={1/(k2*sqrt(1 + s/(2*pi))) }
> .ENDS
>
> * Lower Upper
> * Limit Limit
> *PartNumber MHz MHz R1 R2 CpF k1 k2 k3 k4 k5
> * 026011F-431 1 1000 1380 1.85 0.028 0.00015 0.254 0.437 0.014 5e-007
> .SUBCKT 026011F_431 1 4
> .param R1 1380
> .param R2 1.85
> .param C1 2.8e-014
> .param k1 0.00015
> .param k2 0.254
> .param k3 0.437
> .param k4 0.014
> .param k5 5e-007
> R2 1 2 {R2}
> R1 3 4 {R1}
> C1 2 3 {C1}
> Grv1 2 5 2 5 LAPLACE={1/(k1*sqrt(1 + s/(2*pi))) }
> R98 2 5 1G
> GLv1 5 4 5 4 LAPLACE={1/(1e-3 + s*1e-6*(k3 - (k4*LOG(k5*(s/(2*pi)))))) }
> R99 5 4 1G
> Grv2 2 4 2 4 LAPLACE={1/(k2*sqrt(1 + s/(2*pi))) }
> .ENDS
>
> * Lower Upper
> * Limit Limit
> *PartNumber MHz MHz R1 R2 CpF k1 k2 k3 k4 k5
> * 026011F-561 1 1000 690 2.8 0.022 0.0001 0.239 0.584 0.0172 5e-007
> .SUBCKT 026011F_561 1 4
> .param R1 690
> .param R2 2.8
> .param C1 2.2e-014
> .param k1 0.0001
> .param k2 0.239
> .param k3 0.584
> .param k4 0.0172
> .param k5 5e-007
> R2 1 2 {R2}
> R1 3 4 {R1}
> C1 2 3 {C1}
> Grv1 2 5 2 5 LAPLACE={1/(k1*sqrt(1 + s/(2*pi))) }
> R98 2 5 1G
> GLv1 5 4 5 4 LAPLACE={1/(1e-3 + s*1e-6*(k3 - (k4*LOG(k5*(s/(2*pi)))))) }
> R99 5 4 1G
> Grv2 2 4 2 4 LAPLACE={1/(k2*sqrt(1 + s/(2*pi))) }
> .ENDS
Thanks to each of you for clarifying my doubts and reinforcing my own ideas on this very interesting topic.
I agree that SPICE small signal(.AC) feature is good only for S parameters measurement at
start up, and that too when pesky things like frequency dependent resistors. Also, my inductors are etched on a PCB, or on SiO2.
Reply by whit3rd●November 20, 20212021-11-20
On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 7:16:58 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 03:59:40 -0800 (PST), amal banerjee
> <daku...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Could some electronics suru here clarify this a bit ?
> >A planar inductor has a frequency dependent resistance(skin, proximity effecrs). Can the small signal S parameters for such an inductor be measured using stabdard SPICE small signal(.AC) analysis ?
> >At each frequency in a specified frequency range, the series resistance is different. Does this new resistance at each frequency have effect on the S
> >parameter estimation.
Oh, that's just the tip of the iceberg. In pulse applications, there's
mechanical stress to consider. as well. This little item, for instance,
had a mechanical stress event
<http://www.capturedlightning.com/frames/gallery/coins6.jpg>
and no amount of SPICE expertise can model that issue.
Reply by ●November 20, 20212021-11-20
On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 18:36:50 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On a sunny day (Fri, 19 Nov 2021 13:08:52 -0500) it happened Phil Hobbs
><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
><ab395e8b-34ff-5f54-6c4d-fb3e9842b1d2@electrooptical.net>:
>
>>jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 03:59:40 -0800 (PST), amal banerjee
>>> <dakupoto@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Could some electronics suru here clarify this a bit ?
>>>> A planar inductor has a frequency dependent resistance(skin, proximity effecrs). Can the small signal S parameters for such
>>>> an inductor be measured using stabdard SPICE small signal(.AC) analysis ?
>>>> At each frequency in a specified frequency range, the series resistance is different. Does this new resistance at each
>>>> frequency have effect on the S
>>>> parameter estimation.
>>>
>>> Like these?
>>>
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/u4yiv4p0ho2ktu4/1010VS_pair.JPG?raw=1
>>>
>>> I've smoked these in a pulse application, at way below rated RMS
>>> current. Skin loss! I had to wind my own, which I hate to do.
>
>I am sure you know ohmic losses are i^2 * R.
>So if you have a 1 Ohm resistor, and have 1A during 1 second you dissipate 1 Watt during that second.
>1^2 * 1 * 1 = 1
>
>But if you have, in same resistor, 2A during half a second and zero A during the other half,
>then you have dissipated 2 Watt during that second, while the average current is still 1 A.
>2^2 * 1 * .5 = 2
>
>If you have in same resistor, 4A during 1/4 second and zero A during the rest of that second,
>then you have, in same resistor, dissipated 4W during that second while the average current is still 1A.
>4^2 * 1 * .25 = 4W
>
>etc.
>Pulses, beware!
>
>
That inductor fried at an RMS current way below specified max. It was
skin loss. My home-made inductor was OK: less proximity effect, more
air cooling, and the gap-pad.
--
Father Brown's figure remained quite dark and still;
but in that instant he had lost his head. His head was
always most valuable when he had lost it.
Reply by Phil Hobbs●November 19, 20212021-11-19
Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Fri, 19 Nov 2021 13:08:52 -0500) it happened Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
> <ab395e8b-34ff-5f54-6c4d-fb3e9842b1d2@electrooptical.net>:
>
>> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 03:59:40 -0800 (PST), amal banerjee
>>> <dakupoto@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Could some electronics suru here clarify this a bit ?
>>>> A planar inductor has a frequency dependent resistance(skin, proximity effecrs). Can the small signal S parameters for such
>>>> an inductor be measured using stabdard SPICE small signal(.AC) analysis ?
>>>> At each frequency in a specified frequency range, the series resistance is different. Does this new resistance at each
>>>> frequency have effect on the S
>>>> parameter estimation.
>>>
>>> Like these?
>>>
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/u4yiv4p0ho2ktu4/1010VS_pair.JPG?raw=1
>>>
>>> I've smoked these in a pulse application, at way below rated RMS
>>> current. Skin loss! I had to wind my own, which I hate to do.
>
> I am sure you know ohmic losses are i^2 * R.
> So if you have a 1 Ohm resistor, and have 1A during 1 second you dissipate 1 Watt during that second.
> 1^2 * 1 * 1 = 1
>
> But if you have, in same resistor, 2A during half a second and zero A during the other half,
> then you have dissipated 2 Watt during that second, while the average current is still 1 A.
> 2^2 * 1 * .5 = 2
>
> If you have in same resistor, 4A during 1/4 second and zero A during the rest of that second,
> then you have, in same resistor, dissipated 4W during that second while the average current is still 1A.
> 4^2 * 1 * .25 = 4W
>
> etc.
> Pulses, beware!
>
>
>
>>
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/o2hz6oi08agzdy8/T850_Inductor.JPG?raw=1
>>>
>>> Certainly an s-param table should account for changes in losses vs
>>> frequency.
>
>
> pfffff
>
As some random Dutchman noted in another thread, you should get your
quoting right--I didn't write that. ;)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
http://electrooptical.nethttp://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by Simon S Aysdie●November 19, 20212021-11-19
On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 3:59:43 AM UTC-8, daku...@gmail.com wrote:
> Could some electronics suru here clarify this a bit ?
> A planar inductor has a frequency dependent resistance(skin, proximity effecrs). Can the small signal S parameters for such an inductor be measured using stabdard SPICE small signal(.AC) analysis ?
Yes. You'll need to use LAPLACE = {something}. LAPLACE does not have the troubles in .AC that it does for transient simulation. I have to say that I don't bother messing with this for the non-ferrous core coils anymore. I mean the "chip surface mount RF coils."
About 15 years ago I was playing with it, and had a test file for a CCI 1008HQ_R10_ coil testing different LAPLACE usage, because I was not sure I understood it. As follows:
=============================================
*1008HQ_R10_multi.mod
*Used to test various models of the 100nH 1008HQ inductor
*ABS(s) 1008HQ_R10_abss Upper
* R1 R2 Limit
* PartNumber (OHM) (OHM) C(pF) L(_H) k (MHz)
* 1008HQ-R10 14.0 0.160 0.210 100.00 1.31E-004 1400
.SUBCKT 1008HQ_R10_abss 1 4
R1 3 4 14.00
R2 1 2 0.1600
C1 2 3 0.210E-12
L1 5 4 100.00E-9
GLAP 2 5 2 5 LAPLACE = ( 1/( 1.31E-004*sqrt( abs(s)/(2*pi) ) ) )
R99 2 5 1G
.ENDS
*---------------------
* Upper
* R1 R2 Limit
* PartNumber (OHM) (OHM) C(pF) L(_H) k (MHz)
* 1008HQ-R10 14.0 0.160 0.210 100.00 1.31E-004 1400
.SUBCKT 1008HQ_R10 1 4
R1 3 4 14.00
R2 1 2 0.1600
C1 2 3 0.210E-12
L1 5 4 100.00E-9
GLAP 2 5 2 5 LAPLACE = ( 1/( 1.31E-004*sqrt( -1*sqrt(-1)*s/(2*pi) ) ) )
R99 2 5 1G
.ENDS
*---------------------
* -j 1008HQ_R10_negj Upper
* R1 R2 Limit
* PartNumber (OHM) (OHM) C(pF) L(_H) k (MHz)
* 1008HQ-R10 14.0 0.160 0.210 100.00 1.31E-004 1400
.SUBCKT 1008HQ_R10_negj 1 4
R1 3 4 14.00
R2 1 2 0.1600
C1 2 3 0.210E-12
L1 5 4 100.00E-9
GLAP 2 5 2 5 LAPLACE = ( 1/( 1.31E-004*sqrt( -1*sqrt(-1)*s/(2*pi) ) ) )
R99 2 5 1G
.ENDS
*---------------------
*skinEff 1008HQ_R10_skinEff Upper
* R1 R2 Limit
* PartNumber (OHM) (OHM) C(pF) L(_H) k (MHz)
* 1008HQ-R10 14.0 0.160 0.210 100.00 1.31E-004 1400
.SUBCKT 1008HQ_R10_skinEff 1 4
R1 3 4 14.00
R2 1 2 0.1600
C1 2 3 0.210E-12
L1 5 4 100.00E-9
GLAP 2 5 2 5 LAPLACE = ( 1/( 1.31E-004*sqrt( s/(2*pi) ) ) )
R99 2 5 1G
.ENDS
*---------------------
*skinEffSqrt2 1008HQ_R10_skinEffSqrt2 Upper
* R1 R2 Limit
* PartNumber (OHM) (OHM) C(pF) L(_H) k (MHz)
* 1008HQ-R10 14.0 0.160 0.210 100.00 1.31E-004 1400
.SUBCKT 1008HQ_R10_skinEffSqrt2 1 4
R1 3 4 14.00
R2 1 2 0.1600
C1 2 3 0.210E-12
L1 5 4 100.00E-9
GLAP 2 5 2 5 LAPLACE = ( 1/( sqrt(2)*1.31E-004*sqrt( s/(2*pi) ) ) )
R99 2 5 1G
.ENDS
*---------------------
I think I ended up using
GLAP 2 5 2 5 LAPLACE = ( 1/( 1.31E-004*sqrt( -1*sqrt(-1)*s/(2*pi) ) ) )
The quantity 1.31E-004*sqrt( -1*sqrt(-1)*s/(2*pi) ) looks strange, but I think it makes it real in the end, which we want for a resistor.
In the end I had generated a bunch of entire CCI chip inductor family libraries. I haven't used them for many years because I just use AWR and Modelithics, and I didn't end up thinking it bought me much.
> At each frequency in a specified frequency range, the series resistance is different. Does this new resistance at each frequency have effect on the S
> parameter estimation.
Reply by Gerhard Hoffmann●November 19, 20212021-11-19
Am 19.11.21 um 19:08 schrieb Phil Hobbs:
> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 03:59:40 -0800 (PST), amal banerjee
>> <dakupoto@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Could some electronics suru here clarify this a bit ?
>>> A planar inductor has a frequency dependent resistance(skin,
>>> proximity effecrs). Can the small signal S parameters for such an
>>> inductor be measured using stabdard SPICE small signal(.AC) analysis ?
>>> At each frequency in a specified frequency range, the series
>>> resistance is different. Does this new resistance at each frequency
>>> have effect on the S
>>> parameter estimation.
>>
>> Like these?
Probably really flat, like etched on a PCB or on SiO2 etc.
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/u4yiv4p0ho2ktu4/1010VS_pair.JPG?raw=1
>>
>> I've smoked these in a pulse application, at way below rated RMS
>> current. Skin loss! I had to wind my own, which I hate to do.
>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/o2hz6oi08agzdy8/T850_Inductor.JPG?raw=1
>>
>> Certainly an s-param table should account for changes in losses vs
>> frequency.
>
> Calculating the skin effect losses to put _into_ the S parameters needs
> an EM solver, though, assuming that is what the OP needs. Spice
> doesn't do that.
< https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_EM_simulation_software >
A few are missing, like Keysight EMPRO or
https://www.sonnetsoftware.com/
Spice is also not the first choice for S-parameter handling.
---------
Now that I'm at it, I have made a test board on JLCPCB's
7628 4 layer process.
<
https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/51691780129/in/dateposted-public/
>
Somewhere I've written down that 50 Ohm on the top level should
be 11.55 mil. My test line is 12 mil wide as drawn in Altium.
I don't have any idea how much they correct for underetching
etc.
<
https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/51691101706/in/dateposted-public/
>
It hits quite closely, somewhat more closer to 11 mil
would probably be exact. My SMA-decals are much too fat
for the 4 layer process.
From x=0.5 to 3.5 divisions is the internal 50 Ohm line
in the 54754A TDR plug in. Around division 4 is the
SMA of the test board. It is a capacitive load.
Divisions 4.5 to 7.5 is the 12 mil line on the multilayer.
There is no real difference to the plug-in-internal
50 Ohm line.
Then follows the smaller dip of the unpopulated SMA-connector
and then the full reflection at the open end.
The LMX2594 10 MHz-15 GHz synthesizer worked immediately :-)
The USB-to-SPI dongle board cannot tell the difference
between the eval board and the test board. I have not yet
written a single line of software.
Cheers, Gerhard
Reply by Phil Hobbs●November 19, 20212021-11-19
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 03:59:40 -0800 (PST), amal banerjee
> <dakupoto@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Could some electronics suru here clarify this a bit ?
>> A planar inductor has a frequency dependent resistance(skin, proximity effecrs). Can the small signal S parameters for such an inductor be measured using stabdard SPICE small signal(.AC) analysis ?
>> At each frequency in a specified frequency range, the series resistance is different. Does this new resistance at each frequency have effect on the S
>> parameter estimation.
>
> Like these?
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/u4yiv4p0ho2ktu4/1010VS_pair.JPG?raw=1
>
> I've smoked these in a pulse application, at way below rated RMS
> current. Skin loss! I had to wind my own, which I hate to do.
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/o2hz6oi08agzdy8/T850_Inductor.JPG?raw=1
>
> Certainly an s-param table should account for changes in losses vs
> frequency.
Calculating the skin effect losses to put _into_ the S parameters needs
an EM solver, though, assuming that is what the OP needs. Spice
doesn't do that.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
http://electrooptical.nethttp://hobbs-eo.com