Reply by Wim Ton October 20, 20212021-10-20
On Wednesday, 20 October 2021 at 19:35:43 UTC+2, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 00:17:41 -0700 (PDT), Wim Ton <wim...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >On Wednesday, 20 October 2021 at 08:29:33 UTC+2, Jan Panteltje wrote: > >> On a sunny day (Tue, 19 Oct 2021 21:50:49 -0700) it happened Jeff Liebermann > >> <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in <i16vmgdqoth695b79...@4ax.com>: > >> >I prefer to embalm the card in aluminum foil. Unwrap the foil when > >> >the card needs to be scanned. I've done some crude testing and it > >> >seems to work quite well. > >> My plastic bank card holder I wrapped with alu foil,, then grey tape over it. > >> It prevenst the trick of people near you scanning and taken a few dollars from it, > >> possible without PIN. > > >As the video showed, reading is difficult when 2 or more cards are stacked. > >The standard allows the reader to select a single card from the stack, see for example https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/application-note/AN10834.pdf > >but I have not seen it in the wild. > >B.t.w. A piece of copper sheet between the cards is more effective than aluminium foil. > Using something metallic to shield against 900 MHz is marginal unless > you have a totally enclosed shield, such as wrapping the card and > edges with aluminum or copper conductive foil. Building a sandwich > (stack) of alternating cards and shields still leaks quite a bit of RF > through the edges as in a slot antenna. > > What works best is an RF absorber instead of a reflector. The carbon > foam used in RF anechoic chambers is quite good, but not practical for > something carried in your pocket: > <https://www.google.com/search?q=rf+anechoic+foam&tbm=isch> > -- > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272 > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Payment cards, ski passes and modern passports use 13.56 MHz. The 900 MHz RFIDs I have seen in the wild were to record the time at mass running events. In the beginning, there was an idea to glue RFID payment cards as a sticker on a mobile phone. (before these supported NFC). This was a problem on iPhones with a metal backside and the reading distance from 40 mm as required by EMVCo was impossible to achieve. One trick that worked, was to glue a piece ferrite foil between the metal and the sticker. I worked for a payment terminal manufacturer in the past. One of the first to offer Paypass (Mastercard) and Paywave (Visa). An interesting project, as the standard, the test equipment and the certification were also under development at the same time.
Reply by Jeff Liebermann October 20, 20212021-10-20
On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 00:17:41 -0700 (PDT), Wim Ton <wim.ton@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wednesday, 20 October 2021 at 08:29:33 UTC+2, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> On a sunny day (Tue, 19 Oct 2021 21:50:49 -0700) it happened Jeff Liebermann >> <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in <i16vmgdqoth695b79...@4ax.com>: >> >I prefer to embalm the card in aluminum foil. Unwrap the foil when >> >the card needs to be scanned. I've done some crude testing and it >> >seems to work quite well. >> My plastic bank card holder I wrapped with alu foil,, then grey tape over it. >> It prevenst the trick of people near you scanning and taken a few dollars from it, >> possible without PIN.
>As the video showed, reading is difficult when 2 or more cards are stacked. >The standard allows the reader to select a single card from the stack, see for example https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/application-note/AN10834.pdf >but I have not seen it in the wild. >B.t.w. A piece of copper sheet between the cards is more effective than aluminium foil.
Using something metallic to shield against 900 MHz is marginal unless you have a totally enclosed shield, such as wrapping the card and edges with aluminum or copper conductive foil. Building a sandwich (stack) of alternating cards and shields still leaks quite a bit of RF through the edges as in a slot antenna. What works best is an RF absorber instead of a reflector. The carbon foam used in RF anechoic chambers is quite good, but not practical for something carried in your pocket: <https://www.google.com/search?q=rf+anechoic+foam&tbm=isch> -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272 Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Reply by John Larkin October 20, 20212021-10-20
On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 21:50:49 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 18 Oct 2021 09:17:30 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com >wrote: > >>On Mon, 18 Oct 2021 08:48:16 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs >><bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>>Everything can be defeated! >>> >>>4:26 video, but moves fast, good speaker. >>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTObKtHzroM > >Range would be much better if he aligned the card toward the edge of >the loop antenna, instead of along the center line which is a null in >the loop antenna pattern: ><https://www.google.com/search?q=loop+antenna+pattern&tbm=isch> > >I prefer to embalm the card in aluminum foil. Unwrap the foil when >the card needs to be scanned. I've done some crude testing and it >seems to work quite well. > >>Ski lift gates read RFID cards in one's pocket. > >The most common long range RFID readers work at 13.56MHZ. > >Jackson Hole uses 13MHz for their J-Card: ><https://www.jacksonhole.com/j-card-information.html> > "Avalanche beacons operate on 457kHz whereas the > our SKIDATA readers are on the 13 MHz frequency, > so no there is interference between the two." > ><https://www.studio98test.com/ahmad-test/ski-resorts-adopt-rfid-for-lifts-payments> > "The HF 13.56 MHz-based solution is already in > use at approximately 1,500 resorts worldwide, > with the RFID tags built into lift tickets to > enable skiers to access the slopes hands-free. > UHF technology offers a further step, the company > reports, by tracking the movements of skiers into > some zones within a resort so that the company can > better understand traffic movement." >I'm sure skiers will be thrilled to know that they're being tracked >around "some zones". >
I'm not embarrassed to be discovered to be at the bar, or to ski the same run 6 times in a row. That's all public. The thing about universal surveillance is that the sheer numbers make you mostly anonymous. -- If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts, but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon
Reply by Jan Panteltje October 20, 20212021-10-20
On a sunny day (Wed, 20 Oct 2021 00:17:41 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Wim Ton
<wim.ton@gmail.com> wrote in
<fe218fd9-8e6e-45f4-ae64-5a2a395db4d8n@googlegroups.com>:

>On Wednesday, 20 October 2021 at 08:29:33 UTC+2, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> On a sunny day (Tue, 19 Oct 2021 21:50:49 -0700) it happened Jeff Liebermann >> <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in <i16vmgdqoth695b79...@4ax.com>: >> >I prefer to embalm the card in aluminum foil. Unwrap the foil when >> >the card needs to be scanned. I've done some crude testing and it >> >seems to work quite well. >> My plastic bank card holder I wrapped with alu foil,, then grey tape over it. >> It prevenst the trick of people near you scanning and taken a few dollars from it, >> possible without PIN. >As the video showed, reading is difficult when 2 or more cards are stacked. >The standard allows the reader to select a single card from the stack, see for example >https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/application-note/AN10834.pdf >but I have not seen it in the wild. >B.t.w. A piece of copper sheet between the cards is more effective than aluminium foil.
OK, I will remember that when I start wrapping my head against the CIA mind readers.
Reply by Wim Ton October 20, 20212021-10-20
On Wednesday, 20 October 2021 at 08:29:33 UTC+2, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Tue, 19 Oct 2021 21:50:49 -0700) it happened Jeff Liebermann > <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in <i16vmgdqoth695b79...@4ax.com>: > >I prefer to embalm the card in aluminum foil. Unwrap the foil when > >the card needs to be scanned. I've done some crude testing and it > >seems to work quite well. > My plastic bank card holder I wrapped with alu foil,, then grey tape over it. > It prevenst the trick of people near you scanning and taken a few dollars from it, > possible without PIN.
As the video showed, reading is difficult when 2 or more cards are stacked. The standard allows the reader to select a single card from the stack, see for example https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/application-note/AN10834.pdf but I have not seen it in the wild. B.t.w. A piece of copper sheet between the cards is more effective than aluminium foil.
Reply by Jan Panteltje October 20, 20212021-10-20
On a sunny day (Tue, 19 Oct 2021 21:50:49 -0700) it happened Jeff Liebermann
<jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in <i16vmgdqoth695b79o5b0vtr17q1ch063i@4ax.com>:

>I prefer to embalm the card in aluminum foil. Unwrap the foil when >the card needs to be scanned. I've done some crude testing and it >seems to work quite well.
My plastic bank card holder I wrapped with alu foil,, then grey tape over it. It prevenst the trick of people near you scanning and taken a few dollars from it, possible without PIN.
Reply by Jeff Liebermann October 20, 20212021-10-20
On Mon, 18 Oct 2021 09:17:30 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
wrote:

>On Mon, 18 Oct 2021 08:48:16 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs ><bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote: > >>Everything can be defeated! >> >>4:26 video, but moves fast, good speaker. >>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTObKtHzroM
Range would be much better if he aligned the card toward the edge of the loop antenna, instead of along the center line which is a null in the loop antenna pattern: <https://www.google.com/search?q=loop+antenna+pattern&tbm=isch> I prefer to embalm the card in aluminum foil. Unwrap the foil when the card needs to be scanned. I've done some crude testing and it seems to work quite well.
>Ski lift gates read RFID cards in one's pocket.
The most common long range RFID readers work at 13.56MHZ. Jackson Hole uses 13MHz for their J-Card: <https://www.jacksonhole.com/j-card-information.html> "Avalanche beacons operate on 457kHz whereas the our SKIDATA readers are on the 13 MHz frequency, so no there is interference between the two." <https://www.studio98test.com/ahmad-test/ski-resorts-adopt-rfid-for-lifts-payments> "The HF 13.56 MHz-based solution is already in use at approximately 1,500 resorts worldwide, with the RFID tags built into lift tickets to enable skiers to access the slopes hands-free. UHF technology offers a further step, the company reports, by tracking the movements of skiers into some zones within a resort so that the company can better understand traffic movement." I'm sure skiers will be thrilled to know that they're being tracked around "some zones". It's also possible to get a few meters range at the more common 915-928MHz frequency by embedding a large antenna in the card. However, such antennas can be detuned by body capacitance, which reduces the range. However, 915MHz readers are far from dead (July 2008): <https://www.studio98test.com/ahmad-new-test-articles/vail-picks-new-line-with-uhf-rfid-powered-passes> "While high-frequency (HF) passive RFID tags operating at 13.56 MHz have become standard for ski pass applications, Vail is utilizing newer, ultrahigh-frequency (UHF) passive EPC Gen 2 tags, which operate at 900 MHz and can be read from much greater distances than HF tags." -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272 Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Reply by Anthony William Sloman October 20, 20212021-10-20
On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 4:12:17 AM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> ? > > I remember the earliest cases of bank card fraud. The kind the cash > machine type. The banks *insisted* their system was bullet proof and > flatly refused to pay out victims. They were so sure of themselves. It > seems they've learned nothing.
It's not a new observation. Donald Davies (before he wrote his book) https://www.amazon.com/Security-Computer-Networks-Introduction-Teleprocessing/dp/047190063X/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=Security+for+Computer+Networks+Davies+Price&qid=1634259412&s=books&sr=1-2 complained that banks were childishly confident about the security of their communications, even though their data links could be tapped at any number of points. Bankers aren't trained to do anything but banking, and they are trained by other bankers. They did seem to be able to understand that the dumber and more mechanical part of the work that banks clerks used to do could be taken over by computers, but computer communications was a black box that they paid for, and they couldn't be bothered to think about what might be going on inside the black box - they certainly weren't willing to entertain the idea that they needed to. That was around 1980, and you'd think that they might have learned better by now, but the only banker in the family - a currency trader - doesn't give any indication that they might have. It's an exclusive group and they probably work hard to keep out people who might suggest that their traditional knowledge wasn't all-important. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by Cursitor Doom October 19, 20212021-10-19
?

I remember the earliest cases of bank card fraud. The kind the cash
machine type. The banks *insisted* their system was bullet proof and
flatly refused to pay out victims. They were so sure of themselves. It
seems they've learned nothing.
 
 -- 

"In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single 
 sentence: abolition of private property."

  - The Communist Manifesto, Marx & Engels.
Reply by October 18, 20212021-10-18
On Mon, 18 Oct 2021 08:48:16 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>Everything can be defeated! > >4:26 video, but moves fast, good speaker. > >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTObKtHzroM
Ski lift gates read RFID cards in one's pocket. -- Father Brown's figure remained quite dark and still; but in that instant he had lost his head. His head was always most valuable when he had lost it.