On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 4:10:13 AM UTC-4, terrell....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 12:29:56 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: 
> ? 
> > How do you kill something that doesn't exist. This company never asked me to design anything. You should pay attention to the thread. They are a middle man, a contract manufacturer. They are also on the way out the door being replaced by another CM at the end of the year, which is why there is pressure to get things done. Not my problem. They gave me difficulties all along because "that's not how we operate". Now I have the option of holding their feet to the fire and getting them to do what it says in the agreement. 
> > 
> > Yeah, I don't care what they think. They want to save pennies by making me their bank. So I'm treating them as my ATM.
> Whatever. There's nothing like shooting your feet both off. Thee company using the boards may need some work done, and I'm sure that the CM will tell them about you.

The company using the boards signed the Terms and Conditions along with the two of us.  The procurement director of my "customer" called the guy in charge of these projects at their customer (who I consider to be my real customer) and I could tell he felt very foolish as he "explained" the mechanics of the payment process and tried to tell me it was not paying late by intent, it was just the timing of my invoice and there payment schedules.  I asked him under what conditions it would pay before the 30 day dead line.  No answer.  He had zero animosity about this.  

I did receive an email saying they would pay the 2% and would pay within 30 days in the future.  So it seems the threat of invoking a lawyer didn't work out so much.  She was so pissed when we last spoke.  I kept my calm and simply pointed out that when an agreement says "30 days" it doesn't mean soon after 30 days.  They get so used to their suppliers eating whatever shit they shovel they literally think that's the way the world actually works as if they have a divine right.  

-- 

Rick C.

++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 12:29:56 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
?
> How do you kill something that doesn't exist. This company never asked me to design anything. You should pay attention to the thread. They are a middle man, a contract manufacturer. They are also on the way out the door being replaced by another CM at the end of the year, which is why there is pressure to get things done. Not my problem. They gave me difficulties all along because "that's not how we operate". Now I have the option of holding their feet to the fire and getting them to do what it says in the agreement. 
> 
> Yeah, I don't care what they think. They want to save pennies by making me their bank. So I'm treating them as my ATM. 


Whatever. There's nothing like shooting your feet both off. Thee company using the boards may need some work done, and I'm sure that the CM will tell them about you.

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 10:06:07 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: 
>> > On Saturday, October 9, 2021 at 11:42:37 PM UTC-4, terrell....@gmail.com wrote: 
>> >> On Friday, October 8, 2021 at 2:25:33 PM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: 
>> >> > A customer who is a pain in the ass (a very large company, so they think they can toss around my small company) assured me during negotiations they would be paying the net 30 invoices in 30 days. Because of the large manufacturing costs the float on the funds is significant. 
>> >> > 
>> >> > The first of many invoices was not paid in 30 days, but closer to 45 days. On investigation I found they pay late by design. They cut payments twice a month, 15th and 30th (or 31st I assume). If the 30 days is in the first part of the month the payment is made on the 15, likewise with the second half and the last day of the month. So by design they are paying up to 2 weeks late and *never* by the due date. 
>> >> > 
>> > <<< snip >>> 
>> >> Don't push too hard, they may have someone design a replacement and stop buying from you. 
>> > 
>> > They would have to work fast! That was actually threatened during the negotiations when my costs were rising with the delays and I tried to pass on those rising costs. But there are some complexities which I've mentioned briefly here and in more detail in other threads which make that awkward for them. Still, I took the threat seriously and started to comply with some of the demands so I did not lose this order. 
>> > 
>> > The long term concerns are not an issue. You may not have read the this full thread where I state this order is the final order of this product for two reasons. The product goes into equipment that is not RoHS. The company selling the equipment is, at the end of the year, switching contract manufacturers (CM) to a company that does not handle non-RoHS work... AT ALL. Because of the early on negotiation delays our delivery was pushed out into March of 2022. They asked for a plan to mitigate this, but we had already NCNR ordered materials with long lead times, making the cost of rebuying those materials through brokers very expensive. So that was rejected and they will deal with the delays. They ARE NOT worried about the delays impacting their customers because these goods are sold through contracts that take years to negotiate. So anything in first half of 2022 is fine. The bulk of the units go into inventory to support the next several years of sales. After that the product my units go into will be redesigned, most likely incorporating my units into the rest of their product as a standard feature which can be enabled by software. 
>> > 
>> > So I'm not worried about injuring my relationship with the CM who is being replaced when the product I sell is no longer needed. My concern right now is saving every penny I can on the production of this order. 
>> >
>> Is all this drama really over just discovering that companies sometimes 
>> stretch payments past net 30? 
>> 
>> bullshit and say your shipping rates went up, move on.
> 
> Nah...  I don't charge shipping.  They provide a FedEx account number.  I'm doing this by the book!  

blame covid-19, no people work work your docks. They can pay an expedite 
fee to speed up getting those packages to fedex.

That's a shame. Covid-19 and all and your dock workers are sick. Can't 
ship products this week. It's a real bummer for your customer. Oh well, 
it's just a 15 day delay.

On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 8:38:04 PM UTC-4, terrell....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 12:36:04 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: 
> > On Saturday, October 9, 2021 at 11:42:37 PM UTC-4, terrell....@gmail.com wrote: 
> > 
> > > Don't push too hard, they may have someone design a replacement and stop buying from you. 
> > 
> > They would have to work fast! That was actually threatened during the negotiations when my costs were rising with the delays and I tried to pass on those rising costs. But there are some complexities which I've mentioned briefly here and in more detail in other threads which make that awkward for them. Still, I took the threat seriously and started to comply with some of the demands so I did not lose this order. 
> > 
> > The long term concerns are not an issue. You may not have read the this full thread where I state this order is the final order of this product for two reasons. The product goes into equipment that is not RoHS. The company selling the equipment is, at the end of the year, switching contract manufacturers (CM) to a company that does not handle non-RoHS work... AT ALL. Because of the early on negotiation delays our delivery was pushed out into March of 2022. They asked for a plan to mitigate this, but we had already NCNR ordered materials with long lead times, making the cost of rebuying those materials through brokers very expensive. So that was rejected and they will deal with the delays. They ARE NOT worried about the delays impacting their customers because these goods are sold through contracts that take years to negotiate. So anything in first half of 2022 is fine. The bulk of the units go into inventory to support the next several years of sales. After that the product my units go into will be redesigned, most likely incorporating my units into the rest of their product as a standard feature which can be enabled by software. 
> > 
> > So I'm not worried about injuring my relationship with the CM who is being replaced when the product I sell is no longer needed. My concern right now is saving every penny I can on the production of this order. 
> > 
> > --
> Do you want to kill any chance of getting new design work from them?

How do you kill something that doesn't exist.  This company never asked me to design anything.  You should pay attention to the thread.  They are a middle man, a contract manufacturer.  They are also on the way out the door being replaced by another CM at the end of the year, which is why there is pressure to get things done.  Not my problem.  They gave me difficulties all along because "that's not how we operate".  Now I have the option of holding their feet to the fire and getting them to do what it says in the agreement.  

Yeah, I don't care what they think.  They want to save pennies by making me their bank.  So I'm treating them as my ATM. 

-- 

Rick C.

+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 12:36:04 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, October 9, 2021 at 11:42:37 PM UTC-4, terrell....@gmail.com wrote: 
> 
> > Don't push too hard, they may have someone design a replacement and stop buying from you.
>
> They would have to work fast! That was actually threatened during the negotiations when my costs were rising with the delays and I tried to pass on those rising costs. But there are some complexities which I've mentioned briefly here and in more detail in other threads which make that awkward for them. Still, I took the threat seriously and started to comply with some of the demands so I did not lose this order. 
> 
> The long term concerns are not an issue. You may not have read the this full thread where I state this order is the final order of this product for two reasons. The product goes into equipment that is not RoHS. The company selling the equipment is, at the end of the year, switching contract manufacturers (CM) to a company that does not handle non-RoHS work... AT ALL. Because of the early on negotiation delays our delivery was pushed out into March of 2022. They asked for a plan to mitigate this, but we had already NCNR ordered materials with long lead times, making the cost of rebuying those materials through brokers very expensive. So that was rejected and they will deal with the delays. They ARE NOT worried about the delays impacting their customers because these goods are sold through contracts that take years to negotiate. So anything in first half of 2022 is fine. The bulk of the units go into inventory to support the next several years of sales. After that the product my units go into will be redesigned, most likely incorporating my units into the rest of their product as a standard feature which can be enabled by software. 
> 
> So I'm not worried about injuring my relationship with the CM who is being replaced when the product I sell is no longer needed. My concern right now is saving every penny I can on the production of this order. 
> 
> -- 

Do you want to kill any chance of getting new design work from them?

On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 6:03:23 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 10/10/2021 05:36, Rick C wrote: 
> > On Saturday, October 9, 2021 at 11:42:37 PM UTC-4, 
> > terrell....@gmail.com wrote: 
> >> On Friday, October 8, 2021 at 2:25:33 PM UTC-4, 
> >> gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: 
> >>> A customer who is a pain in the ass (a very large company, so 
> >>> they think they can toss around my small company) assured me 
> >>> during negotiations they would be paying the net 30 invoices in 
> >>> 30 days. Because of the large manufacturing costs the float on 
> >>> the funds is significant. 
> >>> 
> >>> The first of many invoices was not paid in 30 days, but closer to 
> >>> 45 days. On investigation I found they pay late by design. They 
> >>> cut payments twice a month, 15th and 30th (or 31st I assume). If 
> >>> the 30 days is in the first part of the month the payment is made 
> >>> on the 15, likewise with the second half and the last day of the 
> >>> month. So by design they are paying up to 2 weeks late and 
> >>> *never* by the due date. 
> >>> 
> > <<< snip >>> 
> >> Don't push too hard, they may have someone design a replacement and 
> >> stop buying from you. 
> > 
> > They would have to work fast! That was actually threatened during 
> > the negotiations when my costs were rising with the delays and I 
> > tried to pass on those rising costs. But there are some complexities 
> > which I've mentioned briefly here and in more detail in other threads 
> > which make that awkward for them. Still, I took the threat seriously 
> > and started to comply with some of the demands so I did not lose this 
> > order.
> You really have to decide what you want and think carefully about all of 
> the consequences of your actions. You may be legally able to enforce the 
> contract but you could well incur more expense and loss of goodwill from 
> doing that than you will gain in cash. Don't forget the time and effort.

I find it funny that people continue to talk about "loss of goodwill" when I have explained there is no goodwill issue.  This CM is a lame duck and the goodwill between us was lost long ago.  This will not take any "resources" to win because they need me to ship product and they have no basis for not paying according to the terms in a document signed by official representatives in all three companies.  This issue is making them look bad to their customer over a few hundred dollars. 


> > The long term concerns are not an issue. You may not have read the 
> > this full thread where I state this order is the final order of this 
> > product for two reasons. The product goes into equipment that is not 
> > RoHS. The company selling the equipment is, at the end of the year, 
> > switching contract manufacturers (CM) to a company that does not 
> > handle non-RoHS work... AT ALL. Because of the early on negotiation 
> > delays our delivery was pushed out into March of 2022. They asked 
> > for a plan to mitigate this, but we had already NCNR ordered 
> > materials with long lead times, making the cost of rebuying those 
> > materials through brokers very expensive. So that was rejected and 
> > they will deal with the delays. They ARE NOT worried about the 
> > delays impacting their customers because these goods are sold through 
> > contracts that take years to negotiate. So anything in first half of 
> > 2022 is fine. The bulk of the units go into inventory to support the 
> > next several years of sales. After that the product my units go into 
> > will be redesigned, most likely incorporating my units into the rest 
> > of their product as a standard feature which can be enabled by 
> > software.
> You have a great aptitude for including a lot of extraneous detail 
> without explaining what the actual situation is and what remedy you are 
> trying to obtain. On the face of it their offer to pay pro-rata by the 
> day might be countered by rounding up to the nearest week to settle it. 

LOL!  You don't understand the relationship between this customer and my company, then when I try to explain it you complain about extraneous information.  I have explained the matter is full detail and exactly what I hope to achieve.  The customer has signed a document of Terms and Conditions including 30 days credit and 2% late fees.  The customer wants to pay late and not pay the late fees.  I want them to pay on time or to pay the full 2% late fees.  Sounds pretty simple to me.  What part don't you understand? 


> I can count on the fingers of one hand the larger companies that 
> actually pay up on time. That is why I have such a clear stated policy 
> of no further work if there are unpaid invoices past their dues date. 
> 
> Getting lawyers involved will only make them dig their heels in and they 
> probably have in house ones well used to fending off such claims if they 
> are anything like the organisation I used to work for. 
> 
> I have only ever done it once and that was quite interesting to reclaim 
> our goods from a warehouse of a dealer that had gone bankrupt without 
> paying for them. The most memorable thing about it was that for some 
> reason it involved invoking the high court and Sheriff of Nottingham!

Fortunately this does not involve bankruptcy and I won't be extracting any goods because they have and will continue to pay the invoices.  So that information is completely extraneous to the conversation. 

I'm very confident the in house lawyers will say pay the late fees and rebuke this person for bringing this petty matter  before them.  I expect the delay at this point is because she is jumping through hoops to get the invoices paid on time. 


> > So I'm not worried about injuring my relationship with the CM who is 
> > being replaced when the product I sell is no longer needed. My 
> > concern right now is saving every penny I can on the production of 
> > this order.
> I suggest you concentrate on that then rather than picking a fight with 
> your customer *and* their customer in addition. The goodwill or bad 
> feelings that you create can come back to haunt you long afterwards. 

Ok, so you are just not going to read what I provided to you.  Ok, but that means you have no valid view of what is going on.  This issue *IS* about saving every penny.  Right now the late payment fee is $1,000, give or take.  There will probably some 100 such late payments during the course of this order, or $100,000.  Does that have your attention now?  It has mine. 


> People that you have annoyed will never do business with you again and 
> will tell around a dozen others their tale of woe. If you have run into 
> a retaliator it could be even worse - they are much bigger than you. 

You really refuse to read what I have written.  


> Figure out what you want and express it much more clearly! 

Perhaps you can point to the parts I wrote that you don't understand. 

-- 

Rick C.

+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 10/11/2021 3:03 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> People that you have annoyed will never do business with you again and will 
> tell around a dozen others their tale of woe. If you have run into a retaliator 
> it could be even worse - they are much bigger than you.

This works both ways!  Screw someone over "because you can" and
THEY won't do business with you, either.  And, they will be more
than happy to tell others that you could potentially screw, in
the future (possibly as alternatives to "you"!) so those folks
take measures to minimize the effects of such a screwing
(e.g., insist on cash up front).

I had a client "express displeasure" with some of my work.
After the demo, he grumbled "Pack it up" which I took to
mean, "We're done, here!"

Fine. I can't (and won't) try to alter your opinion as
I may not know what "other" issues you are facing
(maybe today was just a bad day and you wanted to take
it out on me?)

I opted not to bill him for the last month of work
(~$25K) and went on my way.

A few weeks later, he called, all cheery and wanted
to know when we could meet to get started on the REST
of the project...

"Um, I don't work for you anymore."

"Huh?"

"Remember?"

"Oh, *that*???"

"Yes.  I've already signed another contract..."

[Hey, I'm not under any obligation to sign another
contract with *him*!  You'll note that he never mentioned
the fact that he'd not received an invoice for that last
$25K...interesting omission, eh?]

On 10/10/2021 05:36, Rick C wrote:
> On Saturday, October 9, 2021 at 11:42:37 PM UTC-4,
> terrell....@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Friday, October 8, 2021 at 2:25:33 PM UTC-4,
>> gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> A customer who is a pain in the ass (a very large company, so
>>> they think they can toss around my small company) assured me
>>> during negotiations they would be paying the net 30 invoices in
>>> 30 days. Because of the large manufacturing costs the float on
>>> the funds is significant.
>>> 
>>> The first of many invoices was not paid in 30 days, but closer to
>>> 45 days. On investigation I found they pay late by design. They
>>> cut payments twice a month, 15th and 30th (or 31st I assume). If
>>> the 30 days is in the first part of the month the payment is made
>>> on the 15, likewise with the second half and the last day of the
>>> month. So by design they are paying up to 2 weeks late and
>>> *never* by the due date.
>>> 
> <<< snip >>>
>> Don't push too hard, they may have someone design a replacement and
>> stop buying from you.
> 
> They would have to work fast!  That was actually threatened during
> the negotiations when my costs were rising with the delays and I
> tried to pass on those rising costs.  But there are some complexities
> which I've mentioned briefly here and in more detail in other threads
> which make that awkward for them.  Still, I took the threat seriously
> and started to comply with some of the demands so I did not lose this
> order.

You really have to decide what you want and think carefully about all of 
the consequences of your actions. You may be legally able to enforce the 
contract but you could well incur more expense and loss of goodwill from 
doing that than you will gain in cash. Don't forget the time and effort.

> The long term concerns are not an issue.  You may not have read the
> this full thread where I state this order is the final order of this
> product for two reasons.  The product goes into equipment that is not
> RoHS.  The company selling the equipment is, at the end of the year,
> switching contract manufacturers (CM) to a company that does not
> handle non-RoHS work... AT ALL.   Because of the early on negotiation
> delays our delivery was pushed out into March of 2022.  They asked
> for a plan to mitigate this, but we had already NCNR ordered
> materials with long lead times, making the cost of rebuying those
> materials through brokers very expensive.  So that was rejected and
> they will deal with the delays.  They ARE NOT worried about the
> delays impacting their customers because these goods are sold through
> contracts that take years to negotiate.  So anything in first half of
> 2022 is fine.  The bulk of the units go into inventory to support the
> next several years of sales.  After that the product my units go into
> will be redesigned, most likely incorporating my units into the rest
> of their product as a standard feature which can be enabled by
> software.

You have a great aptitude for including a lot of extraneous detail 
without explaining what the actual situation is and what remedy you are 
trying to obtain. On the face of it their offer to pay pro-rata by the 
day might be countered by rounding up to the nearest week to settle it.

I can count on the fingers of one hand the larger companies that 
actually pay up on time. That is why I have such a clear stated policy 
of no further work if there are unpaid invoices past their dues date.

Getting lawyers involved will only make them dig their heels in and they 
probably have in house ones well used to fending off such claims if they 
are anything like the organisation I used to work for.

I have only ever done it once and that was quite interesting to reclaim 
our goods from a warehouse of a dealer that had gone bankrupt without 
paying for them. The most memorable thing about it was that for some 
reason it involved invoking the high court and Sheriff of Nottingham!

> So I'm not worried about injuring my relationship with the CM who is
> being replaced when the product I sell is no longer needed.  My
> concern right now is saving every penny I can on the production of
> this order.

I suggest you concentrate on that then rather than picking a fight with 
your customer *and* their customer in addition. The goodwill or bad 
feelings that you create can come back to haunt you long afterwards.

People that you have annoyed will never do business with you again and 
will tell around a dozen others their tale of woe. If you have run into 
a retaliator it could be even worse - they are much bigger than you.

Figure out what you want and express it much more clearly!

-- 
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 09/10/2021 19:27, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> On Saturday, 9 October 2021 at 02:18:37 UTC-7, Martin Brown wrote:
> ...
>> I don't know what it is like in the USA, but the aggressive large UK
>> corporate I first worked for would only pay larger bills on 60 day terms
>> after at least 120 days or when the bailiffs turned up to take away the
>> fax machine. They prevented them taking the photocopier by leasing it.
> ...
> That sounds like GEC when I worked for them (the Marconi-Elliott subsidiary).

It wasn't GEC but a closely related spin off UK hitech company using 
bean counters cut from the same cloth. They were regularly on the stop 
list of two out of three of Farnell, Lock Distribution and RadioSpares.

> It made working with some suppliers difficult as they would only take orders if we paid in advance, we had to do all sorts of tricks like breaking up orders into small amounts to get what we needed.

+1

-- 
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 10:06:07 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> > On Saturday, October 9, 2021 at 11:42:37 PM UTC-4, terrell....@gmail.com wrote: 
> >> On Friday, October 8, 2021 at 2:25:33 PM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: 
> >> > A customer who is a pain in the ass (a very large company, so they think they can toss around my small company) assured me during negotiations they would be paying the net 30 invoices in 30 days. Because of the large manufacturing costs the float on the funds is significant. 
> >> > 
> >> > The first of many invoices was not paid in 30 days, but closer to 45 days. On investigation I found they pay late by design. They cut payments twice a month, 15th and 30th (or 31st I assume). If the 30 days is in the first part of the month the payment is made on the 15, likewise with the second half and the last day of the month. So by design they are paying up to 2 weeks late and *never* by the due date. 
> >> > 
> > <<< snip >>> 
> >> Don't push too hard, they may have someone design a replacement and stop buying from you. 
> > 
> > They would have to work fast! That was actually threatened during the negotiations when my costs were rising with the delays and I tried to pass on those rising costs. But there are some complexities which I've mentioned briefly here and in more detail in other threads which make that awkward for them. Still, I took the threat seriously and started to comply with some of the demands so I did not lose this order. 
> > 
> > The long term concerns are not an issue. You may not have read the this full thread where I state this order is the final order of this product for two reasons. The product goes into equipment that is not RoHS. The company selling the equipment is, at the end of the year, switching contract manufacturers (CM) to a company that does not handle non-RoHS work... AT ALL. Because of the early on negotiation delays our delivery was pushed out into March of 2022. They asked for a plan to mitigate this, but we had already NCNR ordered materials with long lead times, making the cost of rebuying those materials through brokers very expensive. So that was rejected and they will deal with the delays. They ARE NOT worried about the delays impacting their customers because these goods are sold through contracts that take years to negotiate. So anything in first half of 2022 is fine. The bulk of the units go into inventory to support the next several years of sales. After that the product my units go into will be redesigned, most likely incorporating my units into the rest of their product as a standard feature which can be enabled by software. 
> > 
> > So I'm not worried about injuring my relationship with the CM who is being replaced when the product I sell is no longer needed. My concern right now is saving every penny I can on the production of this order. 
> >
> Is all this drama really over just discovering that companies sometimes 
> stretch payments past net 30? 
> 
> bullshit and say your shipping rates went up, move on.

Nah...  I don't charge shipping.  They provide a FedEx account number.  I'm doing this by the book!  

-- 

Rick C.

-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209