Reply by Joe Gwinn ●October 2, 20202020-10-02
On Wed, 30 Sep 2020 11:27:23 +0300, Tauno Voipio
<tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> wrote:


>On 29.9.20 23.41, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> On Tue, 29 Sep 2020 21:31:02 +0300, Tauno Voipio
>> <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 29.9.20 13.52, jrwalliker@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, 29 September 2020 09:48:58 UTC+1, skybuck2000  wrote:
>>>>> Advice from the "battlefield".
>>>>>
>>>>> Perform extra electro static tests on power buttons !
>>>>>
>>>>> Since I bought this couch which generates unbelievable ammounts of static electricity I have noticed elecric devices like monitors and PCs to start behaving irregularly because of static electric shocks to the power buttons.
>>>>>
>>>>> Symptoms are:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Blinking power leds
>>>>> 2. Failure to power up
>>>>>
>>>>> Even after disconnecting from power grid these symptoms can return..
>>>>>
>>>>> What is causing these symptoms is hard to say, possible causes:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Actual damage to PCB's/circuits.
>>>>> 2. Leaking electricity into electric components.
>>>>> 3. But most likely lingering static electricity that keeps causing the symptoms.
>>>>>
>>>>> After some time these symptoms might disappear by for example touching the devices in different places to suck/flow the static electricity out of the device.
>>>>>
>>>>> ^ Hypothesis.
>>>>>
>>>>> I consider this phenomenon dangerous for fly-by-wire systems for aircraft.
>>>>>
>>>>> My advice is to never allow passengers into the cockpit.
>>>>>
>>>>> Passengers could be static electrically charged by their seats when they stand up. If these passangers are wearing cheap plastic shoes isolating them from the floor and they touch pilots given them a pad on the back for job well done it is likely and possible that this static eletricity flows onto the pilot.
>>>>>
>>>>> It now becomes a question if the pilot is grounded tot he floor if not the next time the pilot touches a fly-by-wire control, static electricity could flow in to this control causing bizar effects.
>>>>>
>>>>> Furthermore it made be possible to use static electricity as a weapon.
>>>>>
>>>>> A human could be charged to trillions of volts, isolated from ground and then touching another person with a metal key to send a large jolt of volts through the other human body. I am not sure if this will cause death in the other person, but it may be possible and perhaps even hard to detect, though I suspect there might be burn and scourch marks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Long term exposure of static electricity to PCBs circuit boards could eventually lead to permanent damage/death of the circuit.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hopefully some of this can be avoided by taking extra care of interaction buttons between humans and the electronics.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some kind of electro static protection should be build in/placed into the buttons to prevent this kind of electricity flowing into the rest of the device.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bye for now,
>>>>>     Skybuck.
>>>>
>>>> When equipment is tested for CE marking part of that process involves
>>>> electrostatic discharge tests around switches, connectors displays etc.
>>>> However, some equipment, usually imported, does not always appear to
>>>> be tested properly.
>>>> Aircraft are extensively tested as they have to be able to survive
>>>> lightning strikes and (high power transmissions from radar systems
>>>> at airports).  Anyway, it is very unusual for passengers to be allowed
>>>> into the cockpit nowadays.
>>>> Electrostatic discharge can permanently damage components but the
>>>> protection techniques are well known to designers and are not expensive
>>>> to include.  However, under extreme conditions some devices that meet
>>>> the standards may still be affected, so perhaps you should try to reduce
>>>> the amount of static you generate with a humidifier.  Also, touch an
>>>> earthed metal object like a tap before touching your equipment.
>>>> It is not possible to charge a person to trillions of volts.  Even at
>>>> a few hundred kilovolts their hair would be standing on end.  At slightly
>>>> higher voltages there would be sparks coming from their nose and fingers
>>>> and any other pointed parts of their body which would tend to discharge
>>>> them very quickly.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>> The problem with the CE marking is that it is just the manufacturer's
>>> declaration that the piece of equipment is compliant. I have used some
>>> weeks in the testing lab to make some equipment really comply.
>>>
>>> There are manufacturers with quite flexible conscience. A piece of
>>> common knowledge tells that CE means 'China Export'.
>> 
>> Yes, it's just another way to say Can't Enforce.
>> 
>> I was designing circuitry in Sweden circa 1974 when the EU came out
>> with a regulation about knowing the geneaology of every component we
>> used.  Well, for a 3-person company, this was hopelessly out of scale.
>> But, nor did the EU have enough police to get to 300-person outfits,
>> never mind 3, so we just checked the box, laughing.
>> 
>> Joe Gwinn
>
>
>For a small company, it is important anyway that you're really
>compliant or prepared to disappear promptly.


I assume that the regulations have matured since 1974, because there
was no way for a 3-person outfit to meet the then requirement.  It was
orders of magnitude too much work.

A big difference between US and Swedish regulations was that in the
US, firms smaller that ~20 people were exempt.  But in Sweden, it went
all the way down to one employee.  So there were lots of one-man
companies that formed consortia when a larger job came along.

Joe Gwinn

Joe Gwinn
Reply by Tauno Voipio ●September 30, 20202020-09-30
On 29.9.20 23.41, Joe Gwinn wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Sep 2020 21:31:02 +0300, Tauno Voipio
> <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> On 29.9.20 13.52, jrwalliker@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, 29 September 2020 09:48:58 UTC+1, skybuck2000  wrote:
>>>> Advice from the "battlefield".
>>>>
>>>> Perform extra electro static tests on power buttons !
>>>>
>>>> Since I bought this couch which generates unbelievable ammounts of static electricity I have noticed elecric devices like monitors and PCs to start behaving irregularly because of static electric shocks to the power buttons.
>>>>
>>>> Symptoms are:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Blinking power leds
>>>> 2. Failure to power up
>>>>
>>>> Even after disconnecting from power grid these symptoms can return..
>>>>
>>>> What is causing these symptoms is hard to say, possible causes:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Actual damage to PCB's/circuits.
>>>> 2. Leaking electricity into electric components.
>>>> 3. But most likely lingering static electricity that keeps causing the symptoms.
>>>>
>>>> After some time these symptoms might disappear by for example touching the devices in different places to suck/flow the static electricity out of the device.
>>>>
>>>> ^ Hypothesis.
>>>>
>>>> I consider this phenomenon dangerous for fly-by-wire systems for aircraft.
>>>>
>>>> My advice is to never allow passengers into the cockpit.
>>>>
>>>> Passengers could be static electrically charged by their seats when they stand up. If these passangers are wearing cheap plastic shoes isolating them from the floor and they touch pilots given them a pad on the back for job well done it is likely and possible that this static eletricity flows onto the pilot.
>>>>
>>>> It now becomes a question if the pilot is grounded tot he floor if not the next time the pilot touches a fly-by-wire control, static electricity could flow in to this control causing bizar effects.
>>>>
>>>> Furthermore it made be possible to use static electricity as a weapon.
>>>>
>>>> A human could be charged to trillions of volts, isolated from ground and then touching another person with a metal key to send a large jolt of volts through the other human body. I am not sure if this will cause death in the other person, but it may be possible and perhaps even hard to detect, though I suspect there might be burn and scourch marks.
>>>>
>>>> Long term exposure of static electricity to PCBs circuit boards could eventually lead to permanent damage/death of the circuit.
>>>>
>>>> Hopefully some of this can be avoided by taking extra care of interaction buttons between humans and the electronics.
>>>>
>>>> Some kind of electro static protection should be build in/placed into the buttons to prevent this kind of electricity flowing into the rest of the device.
>>>>
>>>> Bye for now,
>>>>     Skybuck.
>>>
>>> When equipment is tested for CE marking part of that process involves
>>> electrostatic discharge tests around switches, connectors displays etc.
>>> However, some equipment, usually imported, does not always appear to
>>> be tested properly.
>>> Aircraft are extensively tested as they have to be able to survive
>>> lightning strikes and (high power transmissions from radar systems
>>> at airports).  Anyway, it is very unusual for passengers to be allowed
>>> into the cockpit nowadays.
>>> Electrostatic discharge can permanently damage components but the
>>> protection techniques are well known to designers and are not expensive
>>> to include.  However, under extreme conditions some devices that meet
>>> the standards may still be affected, so perhaps you should try to reduce
>>> the amount of static you generate with a humidifier.  Also, touch an
>>> earthed metal object like a tap before touching your equipment.
>>> It is not possible to charge a person to trillions of volts.  Even at
>>> a few hundred kilovolts their hair would be standing on end.  At slightly
>>> higher voltages there would be sparks coming from their nose and fingers
>>> and any other pointed parts of their body which would tend to discharge
>>> them very quickly.
>>>
>>> John
>>
>>
>> The problem with the CE marking is that it is just the manufacturer's
>> declaration that the piece of equipment is compliant. I have used some
>> weeks in the testing lab to make some equipment really comply.
>>
>> There are manufacturers with quite flexible conscience. A piece of
>> common knowledge tells that CE means 'China Export'.
> 
> Yes, it's just another way to say Can't Enforce.
> 
> I was designing circuitry in Sweden circa 1974 when the EU came out
> with a regilation about knowing the geneaology of every component we
> used.  Well, for a 3-person company, this was hopelessly out of scale.
> But, nor did the EU have enough police to get to 300-person outfits,
> never mind 3, so we just checked the box, laughing.
> 
> Joe Gwinn



For a small company, it is important anyway that you're really
compliant or prepared to disappear promptly.

-- 

-T.
Reply by Joe Gwinn ●September 29, 20202020-09-29
On Tue, 29 Sep 2020 21:31:02 +0300, Tauno Voipio
<tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> wrote:


>On 29.9.20 13.52, jrwalliker@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 29 September 2020 09:48:58 UTC+1, skybuck2000  wrote:
>>> Advice from the "battlefield".
>>>
>>> Perform extra electro static tests on power buttons !
>>>
>>> Since I bought this couch which generates unbelievable ammounts of static electricity I have noticed elecric devices like monitors and PCs to start behaving irregularly because of static electric shocks to the power buttons.
>>>
>>> Symptoms are:
>>>
>>> 1. Blinking power leds
>>> 2. Failure to power up
>>>
>>> Even after disconnecting from power grid these symptoms can return..
>>>
>>> What is causing these symptoms is hard to say, possible causes:
>>>
>>> 1. Actual damage to PCB's/circuits.
>>> 2. Leaking electricity into electric components.
>>> 3. But most likely lingering static electricity that keeps causing the symptoms.
>>>
>>> After some time these symptoms might disappear by for example touching the devices in different places to suck/flow the static electricity out of the device.
>>>
>>> ^ Hypothesis.
>>>
>>> I consider this phenomenon dangerous for fly-by-wire systems for aircraft.
>>>
>>> My advice is to never allow passengers into the cockpit.
>>>
>>> Passengers could be static electrically charged by their seats when they stand up. If these passangers are wearing cheap plastic shoes isolating them from the floor and they touch pilots given them a pad on the back for job well done it is likely and possible that this static eletricity flows onto the pilot.
>>>
>>> It now becomes a question if the pilot is grounded tot he floor if not the next time the pilot touches a fly-by-wire control, static electricity could flow in to this control causing bizar effects.
>>>
>>> Furthermore it made be possible to use static electricity as a weapon.
>>>
>>> A human could be charged to trillions of volts, isolated from ground and then touching another person with a metal key to send a large jolt of volts through the other human body. I am not sure if this will cause death in the other person, but it may be possible and perhaps even hard to detect, though I suspect there might be burn and scourch marks.
>>>
>>> Long term exposure of static electricity to PCBs circuit boards could eventually lead to permanent damage/death of the circuit.
>>>
>>> Hopefully some of this can be avoided by taking extra care of interaction buttons between humans and the electronics.
>>>
>>> Some kind of electro static protection should be build in/placed into the buttons to prevent this kind of electricity flowing into the rest of the device.
>>>
>>> Bye for now,
>>>    Skybuck.
>> 
>> When equipment is tested for CE marking part of that process involves
>> electrostatic discharge tests around switches, connectors displays etc.
>> However, some equipment, usually imported, does not always appear to
>> be tested properly.
>> Aircraft are extensively tested as they have to be able to survive
>> lightning strikes and (high power transmissions from radar systems
>> at airports).  Anyway, it is very unusual for passengers to be allowed
>> into the cockpit nowadays.
>> Electrostatic discharge can permanently damage components but the
>> protection techniques are well known to designers and are not expensive
>> to include.  However, under extreme conditions some devices that meet
>> the standards may still be affected, so perhaps you should try to reduce
>> the amount of static you generate with a humidifier.  Also, touch an
>> earthed metal object like a tap before touching your equipment.
>> It is not possible to charge a person to trillions of volts.  Even at
>> a few hundred kilovolts their hair would be standing on end.  At slightly
>> higher voltages there would be sparks coming from their nose and fingers
>> and any other pointed parts of their body which would tend to discharge
>> them very quickly.
>> 
>> John
>
>
>The problem with the CE marking is that it is just the manufacturer's
>declaration that the piece of equipment is compliant. I have used some
>weeks in the testing lab to make some equipment really comply.
>
>There are manufacturers with quite flexible conscience. A piece of
>common knowledge tells that CE means 'China Export'.


Yes, it's just another way to say Can't Enforce.

I was designing circuitry in Sweden circa 1974 when the EU came out
with a regilation about knowing the geneaology of every component we
used.  Well, for a 3-person company, this was hopelessly out of scale.
But, nor did the EU have enough police to get to 300-person outfits,
never mind 3, so we just checked the box, laughing.

Joe Gwinn
Reply by Tauno Voipio ●September 29, 20202020-09-29
On 29.9.20 13.52, jrwalliker@gmail.com wrote:

> On Tuesday, 29 September 2020 09:48:58 UTC+1, skybuck2000  wrote:
>> Advice from the "battlefield".
>>
>> Perform extra electro static tests on power buttons !
>>
>> Since I bought this couch which generates unbelievable ammounts of static electricity I have noticed elecric devices like monitors and PCs to start behaving irregularly because of static electric shocks to the power buttons.
>>
>> Symptoms are:
>>
>> 1. Blinking power leds
>> 2. Failure to power up
>>
>> Even after disconnecting from power grid these symptoms can return..
>>
>> What is causing these symptoms is hard to say, possible causes:
>>
>> 1. Actual damage to PCB's/circuits.
>> 2. Leaking electricity into electric components.
>> 3. But most likely lingering static electricity that keeps causing the symptoms.
>>
>> After some time these symptoms might disappear by for example touching the devices in different places to suck/flow the static electricity out of the device.
>>
>> ^ Hypothesis.
>>
>> I consider this phenomenon dangerous for fly-by-wire systems for aircraft.
>>
>> My advice is to never allow passengers into the cockpit.
>>
>> Passengers could be static electrically charged by their seats when they stand up. If these passangers are wearing cheap plastic shoes isolating them from the floor and they touch pilots given them a pad on the back for job well done it is likely and possible that this static eletricity flows onto the pilot.
>>
>> It now becomes a question if the pilot is grounded tot he floor if not the next time the pilot touches a fly-by-wire control, static electricity could flow in to this control causing bizar effects.
>>
>> Furthermore it made be possible to use static electricity as a weapon.
>>
>> A human could be charged to trillions of volts, isolated from ground and then touching another person with a metal key to send a large jolt of volts through the other human body. I am not sure if this will cause death in the other person, but it may be possible and perhaps even hard to detect, though I suspect there might be burn and scourch marks.
>>
>> Long term exposure of static electricity to PCBs circuit boards could eventually lead to permanent damage/death of the circuit.
>>
>> Hopefully some of this can be avoided by taking extra care of interaction buttons between humans and the electronics.
>>
>> Some kind of electro static protection should be build in/placed into the buttons to prevent this kind of electricity flowing into the rest of the device.
>>
>> Bye for now,
>>    Skybuck.
> 
> When equipment is tested for CE marking part of that process involves
> electrostatic discharge tests around switches, connectors displays etc.
> However, some equipment, usually imported, does not always appear to
> be tested properly.
> Aircraft are extensively tested as they have to be able to survive
> lightning strikes and (high power transmissions from radar systems
> at airports).  Anyway, it is very unusual for passengers to be allowed
> into the cockpit nowadays.
> Electrostatic discharge can permanently damage components but the
> protection techniques are well known to designers and are not expensive
> to include.  However, under extreme conditions some devices that meet
> the standards may still be affected, so perhaps you should try to reduce
> the amount of static you generate with a humidifier.  Also, touch an
> earthed metal object like a tap before touching your equipment.
> It is not possible to charge a person to trillions of volts.  Even at
> a few hundred kilovolts their hair would be standing on end.  At slightly
> higher voltages there would be sparks coming from their nose and fingers
> and any other pointed parts of their body which would tend to discharge
> them very quickly.
> 
> John



The problem with the CE marking is that it is just the manufacturer's
declaration that the piece of equipment is compliant. I have used some
weeks in the testing lab to make some equipment really comply.

There are manufacturers with quite flexible conscience. A piece of
common knowledge tells that CE means 'China Export'.

-- 

-TV
Reply by legg ●September 29, 20202020-09-29
On Tue, 29 Sep 2020 01:48:51 -0700 (PDT), skybuck2000
<skybuck2000@hotmail.com> wrote:


>Advice from the "battlefield".
>
>Perform extra electro static tests on power buttons !
>
>Since I bought this couch which generates unbelievable ammounts of static electricity I have noticed elecric devices like monitors and PCs to start behaving irregularly because of static electric shocks to the power buttons.
>
>Symptoms are: 
>
>1. Blinking power leds
>2. Failure to power up
>
>Even after disconnecting from power grid these symptoms can return..
>
>What is causing these symptoms is hard to say, possible causes:
>
>1. Actual damage to PCB's/circuits.
>2. Leaking electricity into electric components.
>3. But most likely lingering static electricity that keeps causing the symptoms.
>
>After some time these symptoms might disappear by for example touching the devices in different places to suck/flow the static electricity out of the device.

<snip>
You seem to put a bit of effort into these posts.

Why don't you google the specific issues, in the 
process, before posting?

ESD and transient effects, test standards and test 
methods are all easily obtainable, as are methods 
of abatement and varying immunity levels to be expected 
of equipment developed for different environments.

There are even consumer products designed to address 
issues presented by fuzzy chairs and other triboelectric 
generators.

Once eliminated, you could concentrate on real sources 
for the 'problems' that your equipment exhibits.

Unless you're actually zapping I/O pins or bare boards, 
ESD is unlikely to be a real issue. Failure to power-up 
can best be analysed AFTER a repair is effected.

RL
Reply by ●September 29, 20202020-09-29
On Tuesday, 29 September 2020 09:48:58 UTC+1, skybuck2000  wrote:

> Advice from the "battlefield".
> 
> Perform extra electro static tests on power buttons !
> 
> Since I bought this couch which generates unbelievable ammounts of static electricity I have noticed elecric devices like monitors and PCs to start behaving irregularly because of static electric shocks to the power buttons.
> 
> Symptoms are: 
> 
> 1. Blinking power leds
> 2. Failure to power up
> 
> Even after disconnecting from power grid these symptoms can return..
> 
> What is causing these symptoms is hard to say, possible causes:
> 
> 1. Actual damage to PCB's/circuits.
> 2. Leaking electricity into electric components.
> 3. But most likely lingering static electricity that keeps causing the symptoms.
> 
> After some time these symptoms might disappear by for example touching the devices in different places to suck/flow the static electricity out of the device.
> 
> ^ Hypothesis.
> 
> I consider this phenomenon dangerous for fly-by-wire systems for aircraft.
> 
> My advice is to never allow passengers into the cockpit.
> 
> Passengers could be static electrically charged by their seats when they stand up. If these passangers are wearing cheap plastic shoes isolating them from the floor and they touch pilots given them a pad on the back for job well done it is likely and possible that this static eletricity flows onto the pilot.
> 
> It now becomes a question if the pilot is grounded tot he floor if not the next time the pilot touches a fly-by-wire control, static electricity could flow in to this control causing bizar effects.
> 
> Furthermore it made be possible to use static electricity as a weapon.
> 
> A human could be charged to trillions of volts, isolated from ground and then touching another person with a metal key to send a large jolt of volts through the other human body. I am not sure if this will cause death in the other person, but it may be possible and perhaps even hard to detect, though I suspect there might be burn and scourch marks.
> 
> Long term exposure of static electricity to PCBs circuit boards could eventually lead to permanent damage/death of the circuit.
> 
> Hopefully some of this can be avoided by taking extra care of interaction buttons between humans and the electronics.
> 
> Some kind of electro static protection should be build in/placed into the buttons to prevent this kind of electricity flowing into the rest of the device.
> 
> Bye for now,
>   Skybuck.


When equipment is tested for CE marking part of that process involves
electrostatic discharge tests around switches, connectors displays etc.
However, some equipment, usually imported, does not always appear to
be tested properly.
Aircraft are extensively tested as they have to be able to survive
lightning strikes and (high power transmissions from radar systems
at airports).  Anyway, it is very unusual for passengers to be allowed
into the cockpit nowadays.
Electrostatic discharge can permanently damage components but the
protection techniques are well known to designers and are not expensive
to include.  However, under extreme conditions some devices that meet
the standards may still be affected, so perhaps you should try to reduce
the amount of static you generate with a humidifier.  Also, touch an
earthed metal object like a tap before touching your equipment. 
It is not possible to charge a person to trillions of volts.  Even at
a few hundred kilovolts their hair would be standing on end.  At slightly
higher voltages there would be sparks coming from their nose and fingers
and any other pointed parts of their body which would tend to discharge
them very quickly.

John
Reply by skybuck2000 ●September 29, 20202020-09-29
Advice from the "battlefield".

Perform extra electro static tests on power buttons !

Since I bought this couch which generates unbelievable ammounts of static electricity I have noticed elecric devices like monitors and PCs to start behaving irregularly because of static electric shocks to the power buttons.

Symptoms are: 

1. Blinking power leds
2. Failure to power up

Even after disconnecting from power grid these symptoms can return..

What is causing these symptoms is hard to say, possible causes:

1. Actual damage to PCB's/circuits.
2. Leaking electricity into electric components.
3. But most likely lingering static electricity that keeps causing the symptoms.

After some time these symptoms might disappear by for example touching the devices in different places to suck/flow the static electricity out of the device.

^ Hypothesis.

I consider this phenomenon dangerous for fly-by-wire systems for aircraft.

My advice is to never allow passengers into the cockpit.

Passengers could be static electrically charged by their seats when they stand up. If these passangers are wearing cheap plastic shoes isolating them from the floor and they touch pilots given them a pad on the back for job well done it is likely and possible that this static eletricity flows onto the pilot.

It now becomes a question if the pilot is grounded tot he floor if not the next time the pilot touches a fly-by-wire control, static electricity could flow in to this control causing bizar effects.

Furthermore it made be possible to use static electricity as a weapon.

A human could be charged to trillions of volts, isolated from ground and then touching another person with a metal key to send a large jolt of volts through the other human body. I am not sure if this will cause death in the other person, but it may be possible and perhaps even hard to detect, though I suspect there might be burn and scourch marks.

Long term exposure of static electricity to PCBs circuit boards could eventually lead to permanent damage/death of the circuit.

Hopefully some of this can be avoided by taking extra care of interaction buttons between humans and the electronics.

Some kind of electro static protection should be build in/placed into the buttons to prevent this kind of electricity flowing into the rest of the device.

Bye for now,
  Skybuck.