On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 6:33:31 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> On 11/01/2018 09:27 AM, George Herold wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 10:01:18 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> >> On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 18:24:26 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
> >> <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 8:47:07 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 13:02:31 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
> >>>> <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 3:06:26 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> >>>>>> On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 14:17:46 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 10/31/2018 12:25 PM, David Brown wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> There's some wisdom to the "better the devil I know than the devil I
> >>>>>>>>>> don't"-style diplomacy but dictatorial leaders tend to piss off a good
> >>>>>>>>>> fraction of their population regardless of how benevolent they attempt
> >>>>>>>>>> to be or what kind of change-of-heart they have in later years.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Some places - like Yugoslavia, Iraq, Lybia, probably Syria and China,
> >>>>>>>>> would collapse into tribal warfare without a brutal dictator to keep
> >>>>>>>>> everyone under control. And a dictator can often be slowly leveraged
> >>>>>>>>> towards better behavior, if the tribes can go along.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Yes, the slow leveraging technique worked /so/ well in Yugoslavia, Iraq,
> >>>>>>>> Libya and Syria.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> You are right that countries like these required a tough dictator to
> >>>>>>>> keep them from collapsing into tribal warfare - as is seen by how they
> >>>>>>>> /did/ collapse when the dictator died or lost effective control. These
> >>>>>>>> states stayed relatively stable when people hated their ruler and state
> >>>>>>>> authorities more than they hated their neighbours.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The source of the problems was the artificial states created by arrogant
> >>>>>>>> western countries (the UK was a prime motivator here, with the USA a
> >>>>>>>> willing partner) interested in money and strategic control and totally
> >>>>>>>> uninterested in the people living in those areas. It is not easy trying
> >>>>>>>> to encourage peace between neighbouring peoples with a long history of
> >>>>>>>> grudges and disagreements - forcing them into one country and pretending
> >>>>>>>> that means one language, one culture and one religion is certainly not
> >>>>>>>> the way to do it. By doing this and putting a strict authoritarian
> >>>>>>>> dictatorship on top, they were just bottling in the problems and
> >>>>>>>> building up pressure for when the top blew.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> China is a different matter. Democracy is mostly an unknown concept
> >>>>>>>> there (the people arguing or fighting for democracy get a lot of media
> >>>>>>>> coverage in the west, but they are a very small group) - strict ruler
> >>>>>>>> hierarchy is engrained in the culture. Openness and more democratic
> >>>>>>>> leadership takes time to establish, through generations of slow change.
> >>>>>>>> You can't force it on people, and you can't make it a sudden change -
> >>>>>>>> otherwise people merely vote for the rulers they had before because they
> >>>>>>>> don't know any different.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> My superficial impression is that the modern Right in the US seems to be
> >>>>>>> heavily composed of white immigrants whose families arrived well after
> >>>>>>> the Civil War. The Trump family is German post 1900 for example.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Much of my own family has lived in New England since prior to the
> >>>>>>> Revolution, I feel these Johnny-come-lately European immigrants are
> >>>>>>> unaware of how America was intended to operate, have a bizarre,
> >>>>>>> homegrown heavily authoritarian religion (Evangelism) mostly unrelated
> >>>>>>> to my own family's Anglicanism/Episcopalianism, or historical European
> >>>>>>> Christianity at all for that matter, and are in general
> >>>>>>> authoritarian-by-nature, resent representative democracy, and would
> >>>>>>> indeed prefer a dictator or king.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I feel little "cultural identity" with these people.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Do you really think that the values of your 12th-generation ancestors
> >>>>>> influence you? And that's superior to the values of Johnny-come-lately
> >>>>>> people who only date back six or eight generations?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You sound awfully New England snobby and intolerant to me. Tribal.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Species survive through genetic diversity. Don't blame people for
> >>>>>> being different. We need different.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Our culture isn't where our ancestors came from. Our culture is
> >>>>>> American.
> >>>>> Yup, since this thread has gone full monty politics-wise, I've got a rant.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I was trying to talk about the 'caravan' in Mexico with one of my Trump
> >>>>> voting friends over the weekend. He was so angry about it (the caravan)
> >>>>> that it was not possible. (We use to be able to talk about this stuff.)
> >>>>> First off I don't want open borders and I don't want floods of people.
> >>>>> Our immigration policy is a wreck, and I do want more people who want to
> >>>>> work, to come here. (Pay taxes, reduce the debt.)
> >>>>> And I look at these people (in the caravan) leaving their homes,
> >>>>> walking a thousand miles in hopes of a new life, and I think to myself,
> >>>>> "Those people are Americans, they're just not here yet."
> >>>>
> >>>> Except, that even if we could accommodate everyone on the planet who
> >>>> wants to come here, for the most part they do _not_ want to be
> >>>> Americans. There is no intention of "melting".
> >>>
> >>> Hmm I guess you are free to have whatever opinion you want.
> >>> I don't know the people in the caravan, so this is in some
> >>> ways a 'feel good' story to tell myself.
> >>
> >> Of course, you can lie to yourself but it's a sickness.
> >>>
> >>> But all the immigrants I've met, seem mostly happy to melt into America.
> >>> (the first generation will always carry some of the 'homeland'.)
> >>
> >> Of course they're happy to be here. They're fed and living off the
> >> fat of the land. That doesn't mean they have any interest in being
> >> Americans.
> > All are hard working members of the community AFAICT.
> > Sometimes more-so than the local poor white trash.
> > (Though I'm not dissing poor white trash, there's some hard working
> > people there too... and I am middle class white trash myself,
> > but for the grace of god, it could be me.)
> >
> > George H.
> >
>
> What's so great about "being American" anyway, what do all the middle
Huh, OK no one is forcing you to stay. I guess I mostly feel lucky
to be here, Canada or Australia would be OK too... country-wise.
If not here and now, where would you want to be?
> class people I see glomping around in their absurd luxury SUVs day in
> day out do with their time on average which is so noteworthy or worth
> having such pride in, they invent a better light bulb or something?
>
> There are hard working people everywhere most of whom receive far less
> for far more effort
Aren't you too young to be so bitter?
Cheer up, life is short.
George H.