On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 7:10:43 AM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> On 06/04/2018 05:41 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
> > On 4 Jun 2018 14:04:31 -0700, Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> bitrex wrote...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Should start a s.e.d. fabless semiconductor company and get them made
> >>> again, China will make whatever you like. You could advertise it as
> >>> exactly that "The Last Fast PNP" like the Last of the Mohicans or something.
> >>
> >> It's be nice to have it available in a SOT-323 SC70 package.
> >
> > Maybe you and Hobbs should buy a wafer or two? Then, as time moves
> > on, package them to suit the era?
> >
> > ...Jim Thompson
> >
>
> Since they're unique parts, perhaps we could persuade Lansdale or
> Rochester to make them--the litho resolution would be doable with very
> old equipment. Do you still have contacts there? I'd really like to be
> able to get the NE97733 again, too (8.5 GHz PNP).
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
I realize this is very stale.
Anyway, I had a call for a JFET recently. The J232 and perhaps 2N4116A looked okay for what I needed. Only Interfet makes the J232 anymore, and I've never had experience with them.
OnSemi still has legacy stuff but has EOL'd some things. It seems that Central Semi, Linear Systems, and Interfet live on legacy, and even welcome it. Central Semi and Linear Systems do bipolar parts, unlike Interfet. It made me think of this old thread. (I don't know the fabs they use.)
I haven't really done much with Central Semi & Linear Systems, so I don't know what they are capable of. Did you consider a query to them on the BFT92?
Reply by John Larkin●July 29, 20182018-07-29
On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 14:44:40 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>On 07/29/2018 02:32 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> On 07/29/2018 12:15 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 08:59:38 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sunday, July 29, 2018 at 11:40:25 AM UTC-4, adam.s...@gmail.com
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 1:54:21 AM UTC+10, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>>> BFT92, RIP. :(
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NXP, you lousy bastards, you just took away about a quarter of my
>>>>>> design
>>>>>> space.� Get 'em while they last.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I just made my prototype oscilloscope amplifier probe using these.
>>>>> The next best� devices I could find are ON's MMBTH81 ft=600MHz(min)
>>>>> @ 1/8 speed. How else is one suppose to provide drive to the
>>>>> positive rail !!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this the first sign of the great technological unwinding of
>>>>> humanity.
>>>>
>>>> No, we're well down the curve.� It was IBM's discontinuing OS/2 that
>>>> started it. ;)
>>>>
>>>> You used to be able to get 8.5 GHz PNPs (I have 100 or so of them).
>>
>>>
>>> The early days of analog IC design was all NPNs. There were some truly
>>> awful all-NPN opamps.
>>
>> Which ones?� Even the 709 had lateral PNPs.
>>
>> The LM318 was probably the apogee.� Of course it also had lateral PNPs
>> in it, but to get it to go fast you had to bypass the level shifters by
>> putting capacitors to the Vos adjust pins.
>>
>> National had an app note where they tied both inputs to VEE and used a
>> JFET matched pair with its collectors going to the Vos pins.
>
>Ah, OK, the uA702 was all-NPN, and it was pretty horrible.
>
>The old TI datasheet for their version has a schematic:
><https://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/108088/TI/UA702M.html>
>
>The tail current generator is interesting.
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs
>
GE made an opamp that used a zener internally as a level shifter. It
made a nice noise generator.
--
John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by Phil Hobbs●July 29, 20182018-07-29
On 07/29/2018 02:32 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> On 07/29/2018 12:15 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 08:59:38 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Sunday, July 29, 2018 at 11:40:25 AM UTC-4, adam.s...@gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 1:54:21 AM UTC+10, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>> BFT92, RIP. :(
>>>>>
>>>>> NXP, you lousy bastards, you just took away about a quarter of my
>>>>> design
>>>>> space. Get 'em while they last.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I just made my prototype oscilloscope amplifier probe using these.
>>>> The next best devices I could find are ON's MMBTH81 ft=600MHz(min)
>>>> @ 1/8 speed. How else is one suppose to provide drive to the
>>>> positive rail !!!
>>>>
>>>> Is this the first sign of the great technological unwinding of
>>>> humanity.
>>>
>>> No, we're well down the curve. It was IBM's discontinuing OS/2 that
>>> started it. ;)
>>>
>>> You used to be able to get 8.5 GHz PNPs (I have 100 or so of them).
>
>>
>> The early days of analog IC design was all NPNs. There were some truly
>> awful all-NPN opamps.
>
> Which ones? Even the 709 had lateral PNPs.
>
> The LM318 was probably the apogee. Of course it also had lateral PNPs
> in it, but to get it to go fast you had to bypass the level shifters by
> putting capacitors to the Vos adjust pins.
>
> National had an app note where they tied both inputs to VEE and used a
> JFET matched pair with its collectors going to the Vos pins.
>
>>
>> Back to the future, I suppose.
>>
>> I spent most of my adulthood perfecting a pulse generator output stage
>> circuit. When I finally got it almost right, the critical PNPs went
>> EOL.
>>
>> And as noted here, a billion-dollar product line has stopped because a
>> 50 cent NEC transistor went EOL. That's either tragic or hilarious.
>
> Both, depending on whether you're considering the folks that are going
> to get laid off or the ones whose heads are exploding (but will probably
> keep their jobs).
>
> There are workarounds, such as real vs. folded cascodes and current
> source pullups with real or simulated inductors in series, but they all
> cost headroom, current, complexity, performance, or (usually) all four.
>
> OTOH that all-NPN cascoded White follower circuit I posted last year
> works much better than the PNP wraparound, so all is not necessarily
> lost. ;)
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>
>
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
http://electrooptical.nethttp://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by Phil Hobbs●July 29, 20182018-07-29
On 07/29/2018 12:15 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 08:59:38 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, July 29, 2018 at 11:40:25 AM UTC-4, adam.s...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 1:54:21 AM UTC+10, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>> BFT92, RIP. :(
>>>>
>>>> NXP, you lousy bastards, you just took away about a quarter of my design
>>>> space. Get 'em while they last.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I just made my prototype oscilloscope amplifier probe using these. The next best devices I could find are ON's MMBTH81 ft=600MHz(min) @ 1/8 speed. How else is one suppose to provide drive to the positive rail !!!
>>>
>>> Is this the first sign of the great technological unwinding of humanity.
>>
>> No, we're well down the curve. It was IBM's discontinuing OS/2 that started it. ;)
>>
>> You used to be able to get 8.5 GHz PNPs (I have 100 or so of them).
>
> The early days of analog IC design was all NPNs. There were some truly
> awful all-NPN opamps.
Which ones? Even the 709 had lateral PNPs.
The LM318 was probably the apogee. Of course it also had lateral PNPs
in it, but to get it to go fast you had to bypass the level shifters by
putting capacitors to the Vos adjust pins.
National had an app note where they tied both inputs to VEE and used a
JFET matched pair with its collectors going to the Vos pins.
>
> Back to the future, I suppose.
>
> I spent most of my adulthood perfecting a pulse generator output stage
> circuit. When I finally got it almost right, the critical PNPs went
> EOL.
>
> And as noted here, a billion-dollar product line has stopped because a
> 50 cent NEC transistor went EOL. That's either tragic or hilarious.
Both, depending on whether you're considering the folks that are going
to get laid off or the ones whose heads are exploding (but will probably
keep their jobs).
There are workarounds, such as real vs. folded cascodes and current
source pullups with real or simulated inductors in series, but they all
cost headroom, current, complexity, performance, or (usually) all four.
OTOH that all-NPN cascoded White follower circuit I posted last year
works much better than the PNP wraparound, so all is not necessarily
lost. ;)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
http://electrooptical.nethttp://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by John Larkin●July 29, 20182018-07-29
On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 08:59:38 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote:
>On Sunday, July 29, 2018 at 11:40:25 AM UTC-4, adam.s...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 1:54:21 AM UTC+10, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> > BFT92, RIP. :(
>> >
>> > NXP, you lousy bastards, you just took away about a quarter of my design
>> > space. Get 'em while they last.
>> >
>>
>> I just made my prototype oscilloscope amplifier probe using these. The next best devices I could find are ON's MMBTH81 ft=600MHz(min) @ 1/8 speed. How else is one suppose to provide drive to the positive rail !!!
>>
>> Is this the first sign of the great technological unwinding of humanity.
>
>No, we're well down the curve. It was IBM's discontinuing OS/2 that started it. ;)
>
>You used to be able to get 8.5 GHz PNPs (I have 100 or so of them).
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs
The early days of analog IC design was all NPNs. There were some truly
awful all-NPN opamps.
Back to the future, I suppose.
I spent most of my adulthood perfecting a pulse generator output stage
circuit. When I finally got it almost right, the critical PNPs went
EOL.
And as noted here, a billion-dollar product line has stopped because a
50 cent NEC transistor went EOL. That's either tragic or hilarious.
--
John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●July 29, 20182018-07-29
On Sunday, July 29, 2018 at 11:40:25 AM UTC-4, adam.s...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 1:54:21 AM UTC+10, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> > BFT92, RIP. :(
> >
> > NXP, you lousy bastards, you just took away about a quarter of my design
> > space. Get 'em while they last.
> >
>
> I just made my prototype oscilloscope amplifier probe using these. The next best devices I could find are ON's MMBTH81 ft=600MHz(min) @ 1/8 speed. How else is one suppose to provide drive to the positive rail !!!
>
> Is this the first sign of the great technological unwinding of humanity.
No, we're well down the curve. It was IBM's discontinuing OS/2 that started it. ;)
You used to be able to get 8.5 GHz PNPs (I have 100 or so of them).
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Reply by ●July 29, 20182018-07-29
On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 1:54:21 AM UTC+10, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> BFT92, RIP. :(
>
> NXP, you lousy bastards, you just took away about a quarter of my design
> space. Get 'em while they last.
>
I just made my prototype oscilloscope amplifier probe using these. The next best devices I could find are ON's MMBTH81 ft=600MHz(min) @ 1/8 speed. How else is one suppose to provide drive to the positive rail !!!
Is this the first sign of the great technological unwinding of humanity.
Reply by Robert Baer●June 14, 20182018-06-14
Phil Hobbs wrote:
> On 06/04/2018 12:03 PM, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:
>> Am 04.06.2018 um 17:54 schrieb Phil Hobbs:
>>> BFT92, RIP. :(
>>>
>>> NXP, you lousy bastards, you just took away about a quarter of my design
>>> space. Get 'em while they last.
>>
>>
>> <
>> https://www.intersil.com/en/products/space-and-harsh-environment/harsh-environment/transistor-arrays/HFA3096.html
>> >
>>
>> Let's hope that at least _these_ stay for some time..
>>
>> cheers, Gerhard
>>
>
> Yeah, true, there are those. Unfortunately their Rbb' and Ree' are the
> pits.
>
> I just bought Newark's last reel of BFT92s, so we'll be okay for our own
> stuff, but I can't use them in custom or licensed designs any more.
>
> Which is a great pity--fast PNP wraparounds are good for a lot of things.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>
Stupid idea: get a fab company to make a custom part..
Reply by Jim Thompson●June 8, 20182018-06-08
On Fri, 08 Jun 2018 15:50:38 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 05 Jun 2018 12:14:32 -0700, Jim Thompson
><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 23:18:16 -0400, "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in
>>>message news:4psbhdloovifoq9s67h0n5s734e374g5vc@4ax.com...
>>>> On Mon, 04 Jun 2018 18:02:47 -0700, John Larkin
>>>> <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Mon, 04 Jun 2018 17:40:05 -0700, Jim Thompson
>>>>><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 14:49:00 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
>>>>>><langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>mandag den 4. juni 2018 kl. 23.42.01 UTC+2 skrev Jim Thompson:
>>>>>>>> On 4 Jun 2018 14:04:31 -0700, Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >bitrex wrote...
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>Should start a s.e.d. fabless semiconductor company and get them
>>>>>>>> >>made
>>>>>>>> >>again, China will make whatever you like. You could advertise it as
>>>>>>>> >>exactly that "The Last Fast PNP" like the Last of the Mohicans or
>>>>>>>> >>something.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > It's be nice to have it available in a SOT-323 SC70 package.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Maybe you and Hobbs should buy a wafer or two? Then, as time moves
>>>>>>>> on, package them to suit the era?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>digikey has 18000 in stock, $2,835 for 15000 how many wafers can you get
>>>>>>>for that?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Discrete device wafers are dirt-cheap and low profitability. That's
>>>>>>why the devices are being phased out. Was anyone besides Hobbs buying
>>>>>>them?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...Jim Thompson
>>>>>
>>>>>I sure was. And a lot of SOT-89 parts, now gone too.
>>>>>
>>>>>If the wafers are cheap, somebody could bake a crate full of them,
>>>>>jack up the device prices, and do OK. And not annoy a lot of
>>>>>maybe-future customers.
>>>>
>>>> Look into it. Lansdale bought a lot of the rights to Moto chips...
>>>> still selling some I designed 50+ years ago.
>>>>
>>>> ...Jim Thompson
>>>> --
>>>
>>>Jim, you should post a list of all the chips you designed.
>>>
>>>Regards
>>>
>>There aren't that many... just 18 standard products between 1962 and
>>1970.... and they are listed on my home page, toward the bottom.
>>
>>At 1970 I fled the corporate political world (I couldn't deal with all
>>the political BS at Motorola... I think I quit 4-times just to force
>>proper engineering decisions) and went to doing virtually all
>>custom... with a few exceptions, like the LVDS chips for Fairchild.
>>
>>(I supported my family at the time... 1970-1977, by running a hybrid
>>line at Dickson Electronics and writing a lot of the course material
>>for ICE... Integrated Circuit Engineering.)
>
>I hung out a bit with a giant jolly guy in Seattle who was the ICE rep
>there. He gave me a few of their secret chip analysies, lots of cool
>color micrographs. Can't remember his name just now.
Yep. Some of my ICE chip tracing analyses are on the S.E.D/Schematics
Page of my website.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions,
by understanding what nature is hiding.
"It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that
is the secret of happiness." -James Barrie
Reply by Lasse Langwadt Christensen●June 8, 20182018-06-08
lørdag den 9. juni 2018 kl. 00.50.50 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
> On Tue, 05 Jun 2018 12:14:32 -0700, Jim Thompson
> <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 23:18:16 -0400, "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in
> >>message news:4psbhdloovifoq9s67h0n5s734e374g5vc@4ax.com...
> >>> On Mon, 04 Jun 2018 18:02:47 -0700, John Larkin
> >>> <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>On Mon, 04 Jun 2018 17:40:05 -0700, Jim Thompson
> >>>><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 14:49:00 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
> >>>>><langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>mandag den 4. juni 2018 kl. 23.42.01 UTC+2 skrev Jim Thompson:
> >>>>>>> On 4 Jun 2018 14:04:31 -0700, Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> >bitrex wrote...
> >>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>> >>Should start a s.e.d. fabless semiconductor company and get them
> >>>>>>> >>made
> >>>>>>> >>again, China will make whatever you like. You could advertise it as
> >>>>>>> >>exactly that "The Last Fast PNP" like the Last of the Mohicans or
> >>>>>>> >>something.
> >>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>> > It's be nice to have it available in a SOT-323 SC70 package.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Maybe you and Hobbs should buy a wafer or two? Then, as time moves
> >>>>>>> on, package them to suit the era?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>digikey has 18000 in stock, $2,835 for 15000 how many wafers can you get
> >>>>>>for that?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Discrete device wafers are dirt-cheap and low profitability. That's
> >>>>>why the devices are being phased out. Was anyone besides Hobbs buying
> >>>>>them?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ...Jim Thompson
> >>>>
> >>>>I sure was. And a lot of SOT-89 parts, now gone too.
> >>>>
> >>>>If the wafers are cheap, somebody could bake a crate full of them,
> >>>>jack up the device prices, and do OK. And not annoy a lot of
> >>>>maybe-future customers.
> >>>
> >>> Look into it. Lansdale bought a lot of the rights to Moto chips...
> >>> still selling some I designed 50+ years ago.
> >>>
> >>> ...Jim Thompson
> >>> --
> >>
> >>Jim, you should post a list of all the chips you designed.
> >>
> >>Regards
> >>
> >There aren't that many... just 18 standard products between 1962 and
> >1970.... and they are listed on my home page, toward the bottom.
> >
> >At 1970 I fled the corporate political world (I couldn't deal with all
> >the political BS at Motorola... I think I quit 4-times just to force
> >proper engineering decisions) and went to doing virtually all
> >custom... with a few exceptions, like the LVDS chips for Fairchild.
> >
> >(I supported my family at the time... 1970-1977, by running a hybrid
> >line at Dickson Electronics and writing a lot of the course material
> >for ICE... Integrated Circuit Engineering.)
>
> I hung out a bit with a giant jolly guy in Seattle who was the ICE rep
> there. He gave me a few of their secret chip analysies, lots of cool
> color micrographs. Can't remember his name just now.