On 2018-03-02, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
> Dunno. None of my monitors work, and the oldest of them is from about
> 2005. I suppose I'll have to hang a scope on it as folks have suggested.
yeah if you do that. we can possibly program our VGAs to the same rate
and test whatever random hardware we have on-hand.
--
This email has not been checked by half-arsed antivirus software
Reply by George Herold●March 2, 20182018-03-02
On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:13:41 AM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> On 03/01/2018 08:37 AM, George Herold wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 8:38:08 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> >> On 02/28/2018 08:33 PM, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, 1 March 2018 01:12:20 UTC, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> >>>> Hi, all,
> >>>>
> >>>> My shiny new (to me) HP 89441A has an analogue video output, but none of
> >>>> my LCD monitors can sync to it--one says "out of range" and the other
> >>>> two just sit there sulking. So I think that its vertical sync is too
> >>>> fast for them.
> >>>>
> >>>> Any recommendations for LCD monitors that can handle Y2K-ish vertical
> >>>> sync rates?
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks
> >>>>
> >>>> Phil Hobbs
> >>>
> >>> Pick one at random and it's sync or swim.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> NT
> >>>
> >> <sploosh>
> >>
> >> Vanished without a trace. ;)
> > Grin,
> > We use car back up monitors to look at CCD camera video.
> > Would that work?
> >
> > George H.
>
> Dunno. None of my monitors work, and the oldest of them is from about
> 2005. I suppose I'll have to hang a scope on it as folks have suggested.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>
> --
> Dr Philip C D Hobbs
> Principal Consultant
> ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
> Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
> Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
>
> http://electrooptical.net
> http://hobbs-eo.com
> On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 8:38:08 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> On 02/28/2018 08:33 PM, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, 1 March 2018 01:12:20 UTC, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>> Hi, all,
>>>>
>>>> My shiny new (to me) HP 89441A has an analogue video output, but none of
>>>> my LCD monitors can sync to it--one says "out of range" and the other
>>>> two just sit there sulking. So I think that its vertical sync is too
>>>> fast for them.
>>>>
>>>> Any recommendations for LCD monitors that can handle Y2K-ish vertical
>>>> sync rates?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>
>>> Pick one at random and it's sync or swim.
>>>
>>>
>>> NT
>>>
>> <sploosh>
>>
>> Vanished without a trace. ;)
> Grin,
> We use car back up monitors to look at CCD camera video.
> Would that work?
>
> George H.
Dunno. None of my monitors work, and the oldest of them is from about
2005. I suppose I'll have to hang a scope on it as folks have suggested.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
http://electrooptical.nethttp://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by John Robertson●March 1, 20182018-03-01
On 2018/02/28 6:48 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 18:20:40 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> <http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/89441-90076.pdf>
>> See Pg 7-16.
>> The External Monitor connector is a 15-pin connector with
>> standard VGA pinout. The External Monitor connector can
>> interface with an external, multi-scanning monitor. The
>> monitor must have a 25.5 kHz horizontal scan rate, a 60 Hz
>> vertical refresh rate, and must conform to EIA-343-A standards.
>
>> That should work with any VGA monitor. My guess(tm) is:
>> 640x400 at 60Hz vertical is
>> 400 * 1.05 * 60 = 25.2 KHz
>> The 1.05 is the blanking interval.
>>
>> I suggest you look at what's coming out of the External Monitor
>> connector with an o-silly scope.
>
> That's strange. 600x400 is not a standard VESA mode and is NOT listed
> in the typical VGA timing tables:
> <http://martin.hinner.info/vga/timing.html>
> Also, the vertical sync rates do not go down to 25.5KHz. Skimming the
> list, it looks like 640x480 has the lowest horiz sync frequency of
> 31.5KHz.
>
> My 1.05 fudge was off. This calculator produces 24.90KHz for 640x400:
> <https://arachnoid.com/modelines/>
>
> 25.5KHz is something that was used in CGA/EGA arcade game monitors.
> Maybe this converter? (Not sure):
> <https://www.amazon.com/Paddsun-Converter-Output-Monitor-GBS-8200/dp/B01IBJCAIG>
>
Great write-up Jeff, your insight is always helpful!
We have had a lot of trouble with various versions of the GBS-8200 - in
a number of cases it works for a while then turns green or looses sync
and this annoys our customers no end. What we do now for interfacing
older arcade games to LCD monitors is to run the game for up to a week
before releasing it back into the wild, only then do we know the
GBS-8200 or whatever else we try is stable enough for prime time.
25.5kHz is only used in EGA series such as Atari Paperboy and others,
whereas CGA games were all roughly 15kHz, with earlier games wandering
around the standards a bit. I once spoke with an old engineer at Wells
Gardner about why they had so many different sync boards for CGA games
from the late 70s and he told me that no two games were the same
frequency and they had to tweak the design in a number of cases to get
their monitors to work reliably with various games.
I have yet to find a reliable 'universal' converter, for CGA or EGA
arcade games, that comes in under $200USD and works for all games and
the various 3:4 VGA LCD monitors.
Your mileage will vary!
John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd.
MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
(604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
Reply by George Herold●March 1, 20182018-03-01
On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 8:38:08 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> On 02/28/2018 08:33 PM, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, 1 March 2018 01:12:20 UTC, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> >> Hi, all,
> >>
> >> My shiny new (to me) HP 89441A has an analogue video output, but none of
> >> my LCD monitors can sync to it--one says "out of range" and the other
> >> two just sit there sulking. So I think that its vertical sync is too
> >> fast for them.
> >>
> >> Any recommendations for LCD monitors that can handle Y2K-ish vertical
> >> sync rates?
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >>
> >> Phil Hobbs
> >
> > Pick one at random and it's sync or swim.
> >
> >
> > NT
> >
> <sploosh>
>
> Vanished without a trace. ;)
Grin,
We use car back up monitors to look at CCD camera video.
Would that work?
George H.
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>
> --
> Dr Philip C D Hobbs
> Principal Consultant
> ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
> Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
> Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
>
> http://electrooptical.net
> http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by Steve Wilson●March 1, 20182018-03-01
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
[...]
> I have most of what I want in life. If you want to motivate me, it
> will take something quite different from flattery. Try to work out
> what might motivate me, what makes me run, why I do things, and what
> gets my attention. Just one problem. Even if you guess correctly, I
> won't admit it. To make it easier, ask yourself a simple question,
> "What problem is he trying to solve"? If you can work that out, the
> other parts of the puzzle will easily fall into place.
Amazing. Thanks.
Reply by Martin Brown●March 1, 20182018-03-01
On 01/03/2018 01:12, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> Hi, all,
>
> My shiny new (to me) HP 89441A has an analogue video output, but none of
> my LCD monitors can sync to it--one says "out of range" and the other
> two just sit there sulking. So I think that its vertical sync is too
> fast for them.
Vertical or horizontal synch mismatch?
Most multisyncs I have encountered will play almost anything back to CGA
but with some bits lost round the edges and bad pixel fuzziness. You may
have been unlucky or there is something odd about the video out from the
HP. What does it look like on the scope?
FWIW The much older NEC does everything from 640 upwards. But my more
recent HP LP2475 claims 800x600 as its lowest working resolution so
maybe you do need one that is older and can do 640x480 VGA base rate.
> Any recommendations for LCD monitors that can handle Y2K-ish vertical
> sync rates?
Something off eBay from about the right era perhaps, but I'd be very
suspicious that the video out isn't quite what it claims to be.
Measure it and compare with known rates that your PC video cards
supports. My hunch is that the HP output is classic VGA.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Reply by Jeff Liebermann●March 1, 20182018-03-01
On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 06:16:44 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:
>Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 18:48:29 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>> wrote:
>> (...)
>
>> Short list of 3 monitors that go DOWN to 24KHz:
>> <https://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=5052.0>
>> Apparently, some early game machines used 24KHz.
>
>
>> Oh swell, change everything.
>> We now have a different sweep rate in the 2002 spec sheet:
>> <https://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5965-5425E.pdf>
>> See Pg 14:
>> External monitor output
>> Format Analog plug-compatible with
>> 30.15 kHz multi-sync monitors
>> Impedance 75 Ohms
>> Level 0 to 0.7 V
>> Display rate 57.43 Hz
>> Horizontal 30.15 kHz
>> refresh rate
>> Horizontal lines 400
>
>> So, now it has to work at 30.15KHz and 60Hz. That's close enough to
>> VGA 31.5 or 31.8KHz that any multisync monitor should work.
>I ask a favor. Can you post the search string along with the results? I had
>tried to find info on 25kHz monitors before your post, and my results were
>dismal to none.
>You know, instead of working for a living, you should write a book on how
>you do your search strategies. You could call it "Google-Fu for the smart
>people". (XXX for Dummies is already taken.)
I actually started such a document. It won't be a book but more like
a web page. In the distant past, I did the tech edits on an SCO Unix
book. I really don't want to repeat that nightmare.
Notice that I've reduced the Google search string and other URL's to
just what is needed to perform the search. The tracking info, unique
identifier, and such are not needed. If ever throw together a web
page, that will be a key part. The rest is technical vocabulary
expansion. You can't search for something if you don't know what it's
called. So, I do a fair amount of buzzword and acronym excavation
before I do the actual search. Lastly, I prefer to do image searches.
I picture is worth 1 kilo-word. My first posting in this thread
included a link to a photo of the back of the 89441A. From the
original question, I thought it has an RCA phono or BNC connector with
composite video. Although VGA is analog, it wasn't obvious until I
saw the rear panel connector. I hope this helps.
>You already know how to find the cheapest book dealer, and how to sell it
>on Amazon. You would become world famous and the richest person on the
>planet. Businessmen and imnportant politicians would come to you asking for
>help. They can afford any price you ask.
Sigh. I do not want to be famous and don't need to be the richest
person on the planet. Fame and fortune tend to fleeting. I don't
want to attract politicians and other vermin. They may be able to
afford my exorbitant consulting rates, but that's useless if they
don't bother to pay their bills. My worst payers are my wealthy
clients and customers.
>This is an opportunity you cannot afford to miss. You have special skills
>that nobody else has, and it's time to turn it into profit. The world is
>yours if you will just reach out and take it.
I have most of what I want in life. If you want to motivate me, it
will take something quite different from flattery. Try to work out
what might motivate me, what makes me run, why I do things, and what
gets my attention. Just one problem. Even if you guess correctly, I
won't admit it. To make it easier, ask yourself a simple question,
"What problem is he trying to solve"? If you can work that out, the
other parts of the puzzle will easily fall into place.
>Need I say more?
I don't know. It's not my decision to make.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Reply by Steve Wilson●March 1, 20182018-03-01
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 18:48:29 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
> (...)
> Oh swell, change everything.
> We now have a different sweep rate in the 2002 spec sheet:
> <https://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5965-5425E.pdf>
> See Pg 14:
> External monitor output
> Format Analog plug-compatible with
> 30.15 kHz multi-sync monitors
> Impedance 75 Ohms
> Level 0 to 0.7 V
> Display rate 57.43 Hz
> Horizontal 30.15 kHz
> refresh rate
> Horizontal lines 400
> So, now it has to work at 30.15KHz and 60Hz. That's close enough to
> VGA 31.5 or 31.8KHz that any multisync monitor should work.
I ask a favor. Can you post the search string along with the results? I had
tried to find info on 25kHz monitors before your post, and my results were
dismal to none.
You know, instead of working for a living, you should write a book on how
you do your search strategies. You could call it "Google-Fu for the smart
people". (XXX for Dummies is already taken.)
You already know how to find the cheapest book dealer, and how to sell it
on Amazon. You would become world famous and the richest person on the
planet. Businessmen and imnportant politicians would come to you asking for
help. They can afford any price you ask.
This is an opportunity you cannot afford to miss. You have special skills
that nobody else has, and it's time to turn it into profit. The world is
yours if you will just reach out and take it.
Need I say more?
Reply by whit3rd●March 1, 20182018-03-01
On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 6:20:46 PM UTC-8, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 20:12:10 -0500, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
> >My shiny new (to me) HP 89441A has an analogue video output, but none of
> >my LCD monitors can sync to it-
> The External Monitor connector is a 15-pin connector with
> standard VGA pinout. The External Monitor connector can
> interface with an external, multi-scanning monitor. The
> monitor must have a 25.5 kHz horizontal scan rate, a 60 Hz
> vertical refresh rate, and must conform to EIA-343-A standards.
>
> That should work with any VGA monitor. My guess(tm) is:
> 640x480 at 60Hz vertical is
> 400 * 1.05 * 60 = 25.2 KHz
> The 1.05 is the blanking interval.
>
> I suggest you look at what's coming out of the External Monitor
> connector with an o-silly scope.
The important pins are #4 &10 (ground), #2 (green), #13 (Hsync) and #14 (Vsync)
and it may be necessary to go into the monitor menu to set a sync mode.
If it's old enough, it could have sync-on-green, or could use some other unusual
sync-signal codings.
New VGA implementations use digital signalling on pins 12 and 15 to do device
configuration, but (ideally) your monitor has a menu that can be used instead..
When digital communication doesn't happen, lots of video just ... doesn't show.