On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 11:11:27 -0800, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 01:14:45 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 07:11:41 -0800, John Larkin
>><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 13:12:50 -0500, Phil Hobbs
>>><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 02/18/2018 08:14 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
>>>>> On 17/02/2018 07:18, bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 12:51:24 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 08:57:05 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>> bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 8:32:35 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>>>> LM317's like some ESR in their output capacitors. I don't want any
>>>>>>>>> electrolytic or tantalum caps in my new thing, just ceramics, and the
>>>>>>>>> sim sure rings:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/11b3w42nsvpliki/317_nocomp.jpg?raw=1
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But this fixes it:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/9q80heyfbwh5frp/317_comp.jpg?raw=1
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This ain't rocket science, but I haven't seen it done before.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 317 needs no such ESR compensation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The data sheet says it does.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The ringing looks suspiciously like excitation of the SRF of an
>>>>>>>> output capacitor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The frequency is low, and is different on the rising and falling edges
>>>>>>> of the load current pulse. It's the chip pseudo-inductance resonating,
>>>>>>> not the cap's ESL. If the ringing were local to the caps, my damping
>>>>>>> on ADJ wouldn't fix that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cap series L makes a different waveform than paralleled inductance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Did your model give it any ESL? And your solution merely reduces the
>>>>>>>> shunt resistance by a factor of 20x which probably has more to do
>>>>>>>> with damping than anything else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With a big cap from ADJ to ground, it rings badly, too. It has to be
>>>>>>> the *right* capacitor to damp the ringing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I tried this with two different LM317 models; the ringing is somewhat
>>>>>>> different (the LT317 is better), but the damping idea is the same.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's amazing that LT ever made a 317. I think they did that early on,
>>>>>>> when they needed some revenue. They want $4 for it! I'm paying less
>>>>>>> than a tenth of that for TI.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I doubt you're going to see this energetic resonance on anything other
>>>>>> than the LT part.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I doubted it too, but found out the hard way when:
>>>>> my 337's all oscillated, and
>>>>> the 317s rang so badly that the oscillation ripple on the positive rails
>>>>> was even bigger than on the negative rails.
>>>>>
>>>>> The 317s wouldn't oscillate by themselves, but they would ring like a
>>>>> bell even after I cured the 337's of oscillation.
>>>>>
>>>>> I had to scratch off a lot of solder mask and tack on many tantalums to
>>>>> cure my boards. Quite embarassing.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Check out the Erroll Dietz article I posted upthread.
>>>
>>>He used three values of Cadj, 0, 10u, and 1000u. He didn't try
>>>anything like 22nF. I'm sort of surprised that nobody seems to have
>>>tried that, or at least publicized it.
>>
>>As I recall, from the time when I was actually checking transient
>>response and output noise of commercial linear prototypes, the kudos
>>for getting a 10n cap to do the job that a 10uF part was illustrated
>>to do (or not to do) in the literature, wasn't worth mentioning.
>>
>>If it was, it was as the prelude to the inevitable 'Why not just leave
>>it out? Nobody's going to do that anyways.'
>>
>>Tantalum caps were not even a consideration.....but the product still
>>worked over the temperature range.
>>
>>With the harnessing involved, critical decoupling was always at the
>>load, so my measurements on the output terminals were just 'nice to
>>know' ~ required for a test spec or sales blurb.
>>
>>Power supplys were, and are still, just not sexy.
>>
>>RL
>
>Some of my boards are half power supply. Many steps from +48 to +1 to
>-12. Nuisance.
Well, if they are all linear regulators, then that will ensure a
roughly equal distribution of heat dissipation......
RL
Reply by Tim Williams●February 24, 20182018-02-24
"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
news:yZ-dnRfUR8J7Ag3HnZ2dnUU7-XOdnZ2d@supernews.com...
> The HR word for it is "employee development". At IBM I developed a
> twitch, round here people develop humps. What's not to like?
So "Hump Day" is introducing new employees?
Tim
--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design
Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/
Reply by Tim Williams●February 24, 20182018-02-24
"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in message
news:50i09d15t0dsu4kqnf8ut93p3u0rr78b7q@4ax.com...
> She said the worst part was making it work with Internet Explorer.
>
Screw 'em!
My compromise: I support IE8 on most of my site, with IE9 (or higher, I
forget) required for certain pages (like the Coilcraft model graphing
calculator). IE isn't worth supporting, even for legacy users; it's just
bad. And there are legacy and new alternatives they should use.
Tim
--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design
Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/
Reply by Steve Wilson●February 23, 20182018-02-23
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> On 02/23/2018 11:42 AM, Steve Wilson wrote:
> Thanks. DFH found that the OldBooks directory had had its permission
> changed, and there was some issue with all the phone number links (which
> were the bulk of the failures).
> Of the remaining five, four are external links that changed and there's
> one missing link to our site.
>> Some of the pages are nice. You are to be congratulated on your amazing
>> accomplishments. I don't think I've seen another website like yours.
> Thanks! It's been a good ride overall.
> Cheers
> Phil Hobbs
Good Work!
You may wish to tell google the broken links are fixed. I don't know how
to do that, but maybe you can tell google to rescan your site. Or maybe
there's an option in the Control Panel or whatever google calls the
management page. Otherwise google will fix it itself, but it may take 6
months or so.
I also checked your site in MS Explorer. Works fine, but I wish I could
control the background colors like I can in firefox. The MS Explorer
background is black with white text. This works ok but when you mouse over
a link, the background turns white or light yellow. So you have white text
on a white background which is hard to read.
I hate black background. I change all my programs like LTspice to show a
white background with black text, or some other compatible color that is
readable no matter what.
Were you going to give us a link to your SED pdf folder?
Reply by Phil Hobbs●February 23, 20182018-02-23
On 02/23/2018 05:52 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 06:44:58 -0800, John Larkin
> <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 11:54:48 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 02/22/2018 02:09 PM, Steve Wilson wrote:
>>>>> So you're the guy who posts upside-down pdfs!
>>>
>>>>> Here it is, right-side up, OCR'd and reduced from 3,494,831 to 1,652,242
>>>>> bytes:
>>>
>>>>> https://silvercell.000webhostapp.com/pdfs/dietz.pdf
>>>
>>>>> Please replace the one on your site so people can use it:)
>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>
>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>
>>> I was browsing your website to try to find where you put your SED pdf
>>> files. I found https://electrooptical.net/SED, but there are no pdf files
>>> there. Can you include a link to that folder somewhere?
>>>
>>> I also found quite a few broken links. These have a bad effect in google
>>> searh since google will downgrade your site and put it at the bottom of the
>>> search rank. Broken links also affect user satisfaction since they can't
>>> find interesting files.
>>
>> He employs hunchbacks.
>
> The work he forces his "employees" to do *creates* hunchbacks.
The HR word for it is "employee development". At IBM I developed a
twitch, round here people develop humps. What's not to like?
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Burg Frankenstein
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
http://electrooptical.nethttps://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by ●February 23, 20182018-02-23
On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 06:44:58 -0800, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 11:54:48 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:
>
>>Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 02/22/2018 02:09 PM, Steve Wilson wrote:
>>>> So you're the guy who posts upside-down pdfs!
>>
>>>> Here it is, right-side up, OCR'd and reduced from 3,494,831 to 1,652,242
>>>> bytes:
>>
>>>> https://silvercell.000webhostapp.com/pdfs/dietz.pdf
>>
>>>> Please replace the one on your site so people can use it:)
>>
>>> Thanks!
>>
>>> Cheers
>>
>>> Phil Hobbs
>>
>>I was browsing your website to try to find where you put your SED pdf
>>files. I found https://electrooptical.net/SED, but there are no pdf files
>>there. Can you include a link to that folder somewhere?
>>
>>I also found quite a few broken links. These have a bad effect in google
>>searh since google will downgrade your site and put it at the bottom of the
>>search rank. Broken links also affect user satisfaction since they can't
>>find interesting files.
>
>He employs hunchbacks.
The work he forces his "employees" to do *creates* hunchbacks.
Reply by John S●February 23, 20182018-02-23
On 2/16/2018 10:48 AM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 15:05:40 -0000, "Kevin Aylward"
> <kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> "John Larkin" wrote in message
>> news:vecc8dt14p89hcaeb09rd3mkplt5vergrb@4ax.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>> LM317's like some ESR in their output capacitors. I don't want any
>>> electrolytic or tantalum caps in my new thing, just ceramics, and the
>>> sim sure rings:
>>
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/11b3w42nsvpliki/317_nocomp.jpg?raw=1
>>
>> Urhhhh...... the 1 uohm resister is finger nails down a blackboard for me.
>
> That's there to let me snoop the current. I find it hard to aim the LT
> Spice current probe at device pins, so I'll stick in a resistor here
> and there to make current snooping easy.
>
> I usually use 1m, but I wanted an accurate sim of regulator ringing
> and 1m might have affected that a little.
>
> I suppose I could use 0 ohms... tries it... no, LT Spice will not
> probe the current in a 0 ohm resistor. Pity.
>
>>
>> For a regular spice engine on regular doubles, numbers can't span more than
>> 12 digits and have it solve correctly. So, 1 uohm means 1 Meg max.
>
> Looks like I should be OK here:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-precision_floating-point_format
>
> In real life, PCB traces can be many milliohms. I have rarely used
> them as current shunts.
>
>>
>> Don't use smaller than 1m ohm
>>
>> er... This ain't rocket science.
>>
>> And alternatively, ... you could put a low value resister in the ic output
>> prior to the feedback, and use a feedback cap direct from the ic output to
>> its input. Effectively, if configured correctly, the output resister does
>> the job of an out of loop esr, but without the dc error.
>
> A current snoop resistor could be on the input side too.
>
>
You can use a voltage source set to zero volts to sample current.
Reply by John Larkin●February 23, 20182018-02-23
On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 01:14:45 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
>On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 07:11:41 -0800, John Larkin
><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 13:12:50 -0500, Phil Hobbs
>><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On 02/18/2018 08:14 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
>>>> On 17/02/2018 07:18, bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 12:51:24 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 08:57:05 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>> bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 8:32:35 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>>> LM317's like some ESR in their output capacitors. I don't want any
>>>>>>>> electrolytic or tantalum caps in my new thing, just ceramics, and the
>>>>>>>> sim sure rings:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/11b3w42nsvpliki/317_nocomp.jpg?raw=1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But this fixes it:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/9q80heyfbwh5frp/317_comp.jpg?raw=1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This ain't rocket science, but I haven't seen it done before.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 317 needs no such ESR compensation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The data sheet says it does.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The ringing looks suspiciously like excitation of the SRF of an
>>>>>>> output capacitor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The frequency is low, and is different on the rising and falling edges
>>>>>> of the load current pulse. It's the chip pseudo-inductance resonating,
>>>>>> not the cap's ESL. If the ringing were local to the caps, my damping
>>>>>> on ADJ wouldn't fix that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cap series L makes a different waveform than paralleled inductance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Did your model give it any ESL? And your solution merely reduces the
>>>>>>> shunt resistance by a factor of 20x which probably has more to do
>>>>>>> with damping than anything else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With a big cap from ADJ to ground, it rings badly, too. It has to be
>>>>>> the *right* capacitor to damp the ringing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I tried this with two different LM317 models; the ringing is somewhat
>>>>>> different (the LT317 is better), but the damping idea is the same.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's amazing that LT ever made a 317. I think they did that early on,
>>>>>> when they needed some revenue. They want $4 for it! I'm paying less
>>>>>> than a tenth of that for TI.
>>>>>
>>>>> I doubt you're going to see this energetic resonance on anything other
>>>>> than the LT part.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I doubted it too, but found out the hard way when:
>>>> my 337's all oscillated, and
>>>> the 317s rang so badly that the oscillation ripple on the positive rails
>>>> was even bigger than on the negative rails.
>>>>
>>>> The 317s wouldn't oscillate by themselves, but they would ring like a
>>>> bell even after I cured the 337's of oscillation.
>>>>
>>>> I had to scratch off a lot of solder mask and tack on many tantalums to
>>>> cure my boards. Quite embarassing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Check out the Erroll Dietz article I posted upthread.
>>
>>He used three values of Cadj, 0, 10u, and 1000u. He didn't try
>>anything like 22nF. I'm sort of surprised that nobody seems to have
>>tried that, or at least publicized it.
>
>As I recall, from the time when I was actually checking transient
>response and output noise of commercial linear prototypes, the kudos
>for getting a 10n cap to do the job that a 10uF part was illustrated
>to do (or not to do) in the literature, wasn't worth mentioning.
>
>If it was, it was as the prelude to the inevitable 'Why not just leave
>it out? Nobody's going to do that anyways.'
>
>Tantalum caps were not even a consideration.....but the product still
>worked over the temperature range.
>
>With the harnessing involved, critical decoupling was always at the
>load, so my measurements on the output terminals were just 'nice to
>know' ~ required for a test spec or sales blurb.
>
>Power supplys were, and are still, just not sexy.
>
>RL
Some of my boards are half power supply. Many steps from +48 to +1 to
-12. Nuisance.
--
John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement
jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply by Phil Hobbs●February 23, 20182018-02-23
On 02/23/2018 11:59 AM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:56:18 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:
>
>> John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The Brat did our web site in raw HTML.
>>
>> That's the best way I find. But I steer clear of the latest overblown CSS-
>> heavy HTML5 XHTML junk. I'm strictly HTML2 and find I can do just about
>> anything the latest overblown sites can do without the bloat. I'm also down
>> on using javascript to do fancy footwork with the pages. Just give me the
>> basic information I'm after and stop trying to make the site into a Youtube
>> animated video that wastes my time.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML
>>
>
> She said the worst part was making it work with Internet Explorer.
>
>
Good point. I'll have to ask some Windows user to check ours out and
see--we're 100% linux round here.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
http://electrooptical.nethttps://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by Sjouke Burry●February 23, 20182018-02-23
On 23-2-2018 17:32, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 10:11:05 -0500, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> On 02/23/2018 09:44 AM, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 11:54:48 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 02/22/2018 02:09 PM, Steve Wilson wrote:
>>>>>> So you're the guy who posts upside-down pdfs!
>>>>
>>>>>> Here it is, right-side up, OCR'd and reduced from 3,494,831 to 1,652,242
>>>>>> bytes:
>>>>
>>>>>> https://silvercell.000webhostapp.com/pdfs/dietz.pdf
>>>>
>>>>>> Please replace the one on your site so people can use it:)
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>>
>>>> I was browsing your website to try to find where you put your SED pdf
>>>> files. I found https://electrooptical.net/SED, but there are no pdf files
>>>> there. Can you include a link to that folder somewhere?
>>>>
>>>> I also found quite a few broken links. These have a bad effect in google
>>>> searh since google will downgrade your site and put it at the bottom of the
>>>> search rank. Broken links also affect user satisfaction since they can't
>>>> find interesting files.
>>>
>>> He employs hunchbacks.
>>>
>>>
>> An underrepresented minority. Watch out.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>
> Sorry: spinally challenged.
>
>
You are challenged by a Popey vegetable ??? Tssssskkkk.....