On Sunday, 21 May 2017 07:10:10 UTC-4, Chris  wrote:
> Has anyone got any suggestions as to how to best deal with the phenomenon 
> of jittering zeners? Preferably without adding excessive complexity to a 
> circuit, I mean.
  Can U be more explicit on this question?

Part number: Bias current. Noise level Vpp 
- spectrum of noise, dominant, spread, slope
- impedance of circuit connected to zener; Resistance, inductance, capacitance, length of wire/type balanced? unbalanced?

This is what I sarcastically meant by Can U be less explicit?

Thanks to R. Baer  reference to Codatron shed some insight.  60 microamps is the specified Ireg. and "standard models" are rated for +/-2% Voltage noise 20µA to 500µA at constant temperature.

Anthony Stewart wrote:
> I am guessing you mean low frequency noise caused by flicker noise or else load regulation error caused by dynamic loads and the ratio of Zener ESR to dynamic load ESR, resulting in voltage error.
>
> Can you be any less specific?
   From nanoamps,to at least 3mA (max current spec), the Codatron® does 
not have any of the normal zener avalanche noise

I am guessing you mean low frequency noise caused by flicker noise or else load regulation error caused by dynamic loads and the ratio of Zener ESR to dynamic load ESR, resulting in voltage error.

Can you be any less specific?

Tom Del Rosso wrote...
>
>Winfield Hill wrote:
>> Cursitor Doom wrote...
>>>
>>> Jim Thompson wrote:
>>>
>>>> AKA Flicker Noise
>>>
>>> Yup, pink noise. No jittering/jitterbugging involved. ;)
>>
>> Actually, I'd say you're wrong.  The zener noise that we
>> see in avalanche mode (greater then 7 volts or so) is due
>> to step-wise "microplasma" ns-scale changes in current.
>> A decade or so ago we fully discussed it here on s.e.d.,
>> complete with measurements, waveforms, detailed physics
>> paper references and the works.  Nailed it down.  As it
>> happens, the jitterbug analogy isn't so far off.
>>
>> This avalanche jitterbug noise source is not available
>> in the low-voltage field emission zener operating mode,
>> so using two sub-6-volt zeners in series in place of a
>> higher-voltage zener, or any of many other good schemes
>> would indeed be a good idea.
>
> Is the low-voltage noise less than half, so it
> won't add up to more?

 Yes, it's a tiny fraction.  Try it.


-- 
 Thanks,
    - Win

Winfield Hill wrote:
> Cursitor Doom wrote...
>>
>> Jim Thompson wrote:
>>
>>> AKA Flicker Noise
>>
>> Yup, pink noise. No jittering/jitterbugging involved. ;)
>
> Actually, I'd say you're wrong.  The zener noise that we
> see in avalanche mode (greater then 7 volts or so) is due
> to step-wise "microplasma" ns-scale changes in current.
> A decade or so ago we fully discussed it here on s.e.d.,
> complete with measurements, waveforms, detailed physics
> paper references and the works.  Nailed it down.  As it
> happens, the jitterbug analogy isn't so far off.
>
> This avalanche jitterbug noise source is not available
> in the low-voltage field emission zener operating mode,
> so using two sub-6-volt zeners in series in place of a
> higher-voltage zener, or any of many other good schemes
> would indeed be a good idea.

Is the low-voltage noise less than half, so it won't add up to more?

On a sunny day (Thu, 25 May 2017 08:12:17 -0700) it happened John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in
<51tdicptm2lhskrpasur2j4b3gtermn2mm@4ax.com>:

>On Wed, 24 May 2017 16:35:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje
><pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

>>In 1973 or there about when I worked in the TV studio,
>>one of the engineers came to me with a an enlarged microfilm of a patent
>>for a video recorder and asked me if I could make any sense of it.
>>It was given to him by the local electronics shop.
>>Video recording was my field there.
>>The system had a name, cannot remember, will let you know if it comes back to me.
>>That patent used one vertical oriented delay line that put charge on a vinyl tape
>>that moved passed it, that way recording the charge pattern (image).
>>I could not say it was wrong, but told him it was in my view not very likely
>>that charge patterns would stay intact on a rolled up vinyl tape for any length of time.
>>That idea never made it to market AFAIK.
>
>Did it heat the tape during recording? Possibly electret charging.

Not that I know.

On Wed, 24 May 2017 16:35:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On a sunny day (Tue, 23 May 2017 21:18:14 -0700) it happened John Larkin
><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in
><v22aic95vjaajp5asr54h6bg3ue3i42g0n@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Tue, 23 May 2017 19:35:38 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>><pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On a sunny day (Tue, 23 May 2017 11:18:57 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>>><jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote in
>>><s0v8icl0730vbu3sflob86gmp3mumqmv97@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 23 May 2017 17:46:05 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>>>><pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On a sunny day (Tue, 23 May 2017 09:06:06 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>>>>><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in
>>>>><19m8ictl25ltljji98fp9m0854cvrgpp86@4ax.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>I think I got that one after a short brainstorming session with Tye.
>>>>>>Imago was in the VC/file-lots-of-patents phase, so they filed it. I
>>>>>>discovered the patent accidentally during a web search. I suppose I
>>>>>>signed something at some point, but I'd forgotten.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Gear/Anodes.JPG
>>>>>
>>>>>No idea how it works but it does remind me of a rear-window heater,
>>>>
>>>>This explains the delay-line detector idea pretty well.
>>>>
>>>>www.chem.ucla.edu/~michalet/papers/IEEE2005.pdf
>>>>
>>>>The tomographic atom probe rips a sample apart one atom at a time and
>>>>measures the XY position and time-of-flight, to reconstruct a 3D image
>>>>of a sample.
>>>
>>>Very interesting concept.
>>>Using x and y delay lines, had not seen that one before.
>>>Thanks
>>
>>There's also an imaging technique, also used with microchannel plates,
>>that uses resistive charge distribution to get the X-Y coordinates,
>>based on amplitudes instead of time.
>>
>>There are fun things you can do with the delay-line imager, like
>>crosscheck timings to untangle multiple-particle pileups and such.
>>
>>You could probably make a 2D delay line with optical fibers instead of
>>conductors. Much less loss.
>
>In 1973 or there about when I worked in the TV studio,
>one of the engineers came to me with a an enlarged microfilm of a patent
>for a video recorder and asked me if I could make any sense of it.
>It was given to him by the local electronics shop.
>Video recording was my field there.
>The system had a name, cannot remember, will let you know if it comes back to me.
>That patent used one vertical oriented delay line that put charge on a vinyl tape
>that moved passed it, that way recording the charge pattern (image).
>I could not say it was wrong, but told him it was in my view not very likely
>that charge patterns would stay intact on a rolled up vinyl tape for any length of time.
>That idea never made it to market AFAIK.

Did it heat the tape during recording? Possibly electret charging.


-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics 

On a sunny day (Thu, 25 May 2017 17:44:36 +1000) it happened Clifford Heath
<no.spam@please.net> wrote in <pYvVA.48432$Cj6.25910@fx23.iad>:

>On 25/05/17 17:40, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> In 1973 or there about when I worked in the TV studio,
>>> one of the engineers came to me with a an enlarged microfilm of a patent
>>> for a video recorder and asked me if I could make any sense of it.
>>> It was given to him by the local electronics shop.
>>> Video recording was my field there.
>>> The system had a name, cannot remember, will let you know if it comes back to me.
>>
>> It was called 'Ventiel Raster Diode'.
>> That was Dutch and translated means something like 'one way raster diode'.
>> Googling gives zero hits.
>> Maybe the tape was coated to prevent the charge leaking, was not very clear or complete.
>
>Maybe it was called "one way" because you could record, but not play back?

Yes, that is it!

On 25/05/17 17:40, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>
>>
>> In 1973 or there about when I worked in the TV studio,
>> one of the engineers came to me with a an enlarged microfilm of a patent
>> for a video recorder and asked me if I could make any sense of it.
>> It was given to him by the local electronics shop.
>> Video recording was my field there.
>> The system had a name, cannot remember, will let you know if it comes back to me.
>
> It was called 'Ventiel Raster Diode'.
> That was Dutch and translated means something like 'one way raster diode'.
> Googling gives zero hits.
> Maybe the tape was coated to prevent the charge leaking, was not very clear or complete.

Maybe it was called "one way" because you could record, but not play back?

>
>In 1973 or there about when I worked in the TV studio,
>one of the engineers came to me with a an enlarged microfilm of a patent
>for a video recorder and asked me if I could make any sense of it.
>It was given to him by the local electronics shop.
>Video recording was my field there.
>The system had a name, cannot remember, will let you know if it comes back to me.

It was called 'Ventiel Raster Diode'.
That was Dutch and translated means something like 'one way raster diode'.
Googling gives zero hits.
Maybe the tape was coated to prevent the charge leaking, was not very clear or complete.


>That patent used one vertical oriented delay line that put charge on a vinyl tape
>that moved passed it, that way recording the charge pattern (image).
>I could not say it was wrong, but told him it was in my view not very likely
>that charge patterns would stay intact on a rolled up vinyl tape for any length of time.
>That idea never made it to market AFAIK.
>