"Albert van der Horst" <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> wrote in message 
news:o5qnlk$r2m$1@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl...
>>The boiling/decomposition temperature sounds a little low, though, if it's
>>sputtering and boiling away immediately.
>
> Having done this time and again, I can't see what you mean. Are you 
> arguing
> that a tried and proven method doesn't work on theoretical grounds?

Duh.  Theory is always right.  You dare argue that? :^)

That was more about the observation that someone else had.  Which was 
probably the wrong technique.  Your mention above (just tapping it briefly) 
sounds more plausible.

FWIW, I've soldered steel using ZnCl2 and HCl before -- they evaporate 
rapidly, but the metal remains clean long enough to be wetted.  Similar 
idea!

> You still need rosin. The aspirin takes care of the enamel that is hard
> to remove mechanically, especially on the 0.1 mm (that is 4 mil for those
> imperialist) wire.

If you didn't buy Soldeaze (or whatever), I don't really know what to say; 
it's your own fault. :-p

I've never had a problem with the #37 (uh, 4.5 mil?) wire I've got, which is 
of the solderable kind.


I've also used molten potassium nitrate or chlorate, to burn away some 
rather more annoying enamels.  I think that wire is so old, it's from the 
days when they used literal enamel.

You melt some salt in a spoon, dip the wire, then quench the wire in water 
to freeze and dissolve the salt immediately.  Shiny pink copper remains!

Oh, and just don't get anything even marginally organic in the molten salt. 
Or even just a catalyst (like MnO2), in the potassium chlorate case.

Tim

-- 
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com 

In article <o4f058$9lu$1@dont-email.me>,
Tim Williams <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:
>"Tim Wescott" <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> wrote in message
>news:6PmdnYJ2pPNFQPfFnZ2dnUU7-cudnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> Is it just the fact that it's an acid that melts at soldering
>> temperatures that does it (like, could I use some other flux)?  Or is the
>> fact that it's asprin that's special?
>
>Yes and yes.  First, an organic melt helps to dissolve and loosen things
>(it's a solvent).  An acid helps, combining with oxides (and carrying them
>away in the liquid).  Acetylsalicylic acid will help further because the
>acetyl- part hydrolyzes relatively easily (even if you're not putting water
>into it, it's probably a prime part of decomposition products), giving a
>much stronger acid to dissolve crusty deposits.  (Acetic acid also forms a
>complex with copper ions, giving extra solubility over, say, nitric acid.
>Not that you'd use that for soldering.)

By far the most important aspect is that the enamel has affinity with
the aspirin, dissolving in it. The pristine copper layer underneath
the enamel then takes up solder like the best. On the other hand
with rosin you can't get through the enamel.

>
>The boiling/decomposition temperature sounds a little low, though, if it's
>sputtering and boiling away immediately.

Having done this time and again, I can't see what you mean. Are you arguing
that a tried and proven method doesn't work on theoretical grounds?

>
>That's a downside to ~pure organic compounds: the melting and boiling points
>are sharp.  Rosin is a mixture of heavier organic acids, so it's a bit
>milder (depending on "activation"), and different compounds evaporate first,
>leaving the metal protected even if the remaining goo isn't very active.

You still need rosin. The aspirin takes care of the enamel that is hard
to remove mechanically, especially on the 0.1 mm (that is 4 mil for those
imperialist) wire.

>
>Tim

P.S Oops, imperialist don't measure wire in inches, they use wire
gauge like #34.

Groetjes Albert
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

In article <o4c1ft$4kt$1@dont-email.me>, John S  <Sophi.2@invalid.org> wrote:
>On 1/1/2017 12:56 PM, Albert van der Horst wrote:
>> In article <no228m01d1m@drn.newsguy.com>,
>> Winfield Hill  <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>> bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote...
>>>>
>>>> Too many people make a habit of avoiding custom magnetics.
>>>> The Rowland Institute ought to have a simple coil winder -
>>>> there are cheap ones available from China if it doesn't -
>>>> and you don't need much of a range of RM cores, formers,
>>>> mylar tape and enamelled wire to do useful stuff.
>>>
>>> We have a winder, but need an fixture for small bobbins.
>>> I have the full range of materials, including my favorite
>>> Kapton tape, in various widths.  It's the painful magnet-
>>> wire enamel removal and soldering to tiny bobbin pins
>>> that slows me down.  That'd be an even worse issue with
>>> extra windings.   But I heard a rumor about a special
>>> magnet wire with disappearing enamel at soldering temps.
>>
>> I use aspirin to melt the enamel, and solder 0.1 mm wires no
>> problem. It looks like you don't know that trick.
>> (You must use acetyl salicic acid, the brand. just any
>> pain killer won't do. No mixins.)
>>
>>> --
>>> Thanks,
>>>    - Win
>>
>> Groetjes Albert
>>
>
>How is that accomplished? How do you coat the wire with the aspirin? Do
>you melt the aspirin with your iron first? What is your process?

You lay the wire down on the aspirin tablet, then touch it with iron, and
apply solder.  The aspirin melts a bit.
Just try it, it is so easy it is hard to explain.

P.S. I only ever did this with classical Pb/Sn solder.

>
>Thanks.

Groetjes Albert
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
> On 02 Jan 2017 12:32:05 GMT, Rob <nomail@example.com> wrote:
>
>>Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>>>Use Beldsol enameled wire. Just solder it with a hot iron.
>>>
>>> I've a similar litze wire for my Boehm self built organ.
>>> Use Weller 8 tips instead of 7, and tin-lead solder.
>>> It was 17 guilders at the time (1980) for 90 meter.
>>> Boehm had all kind of secondary supplies (meters, resistors,
>>> etc.) for cheap, and unbranded. Maybe this was Beldsol.
>>> It is litze, enamelled and then wrapped in secondary isolation.
>>
>>In the Netherlands similar wire was known as "Posijndraad", I'm not
>>sure if Posijn was a manufacturer and where it was based.
>>I made quite some digital circuits in the past with this wire and
>>breadboard-type PCB (1/10" spaced holes with a copper island per hole).
>>Indeed it was easy to solder with a number 8 tip, without having to
>>pre-tin the ends of the wire.  I just wrapped the wire 1 turn around
>>the IC pin (continuing to the next pin when required) and soldered those
>>junctions.
>
> This is 30 gage Beldsol, from ebay. It helps to scrape away a bit of
> insulation before soldering, but with a hot tip it's not necessary. I
> used a Metcal iron here with a cheapish Thermaltronics S75C clone tip,
> rated 350-398C.
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Protos/Beldsol_30.JPG

it is different from what I used, in my case the isolation had a
more neutral color so the wire looked like bare unoxidized copper.

Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:
> Den tirsdag den 3. januar 2017 kl. 22.27.57 UTC+1 skrev Dave Platt:
>> > We have a winder, but need an fixture for small bobbins. I have the
>> > full range of materials, including my favorite Kapton tape, in various
>> > widths.  It's the painful magnet-
>> > wire enamel removal and soldering to tiny bobbin pins that slows me
>> > down.  That'd be an even worse issue with extra windings.   But I heard
>> > a rumor about a special magnet wire with disappearing enamel at
>> > soldering temps.
>> 
>> Brand names "Soldereze" and "Thermaleze".  Apparently this uses a
>> polyurethane-base enamel.
>> 
>> I've done a couple of projects using it... something akin to "wire
>> wrap" construction, but you connect-and-wrap using Soldereze wire and
>> then do the soldering using an iron with an 800-degree-F tip.  Unlike
>> normal wire-wrap you don't have to either strip or slit the wire in
>> advance, or wrap only onto sharp-cornered square pins that can
>> penetrate the insulation.
>> 
>> One disadvantage is that you need a fairly hot iron to get the
>> insulation to melt/burn off properly, and this may be too hot for
>> certain components, nylon bobbins and connectors, etc.
>
> as long as you start from the wire end where the solder can get in 
> direct contact with copper and sorta creep under the insulation it 
> doesn't need to be that hot

Also, in cases where you expect problems you can just start putting
solder on just the end of the wire, and when it has cleaned the isolation
and flowed the solder you put the end of the wire on the component
and solder it the normal way.

Den tirsdag den 3. januar 2017 kl. 22.27.57 UTC+1 skrev Dave Platt:
> > We have a winder, but need an fixture for small bobbins. I have the
> > full range of materials, including my favorite Kapton tape, in various
> > widths.  It's the painful magnet-
> > wire enamel removal and soldering to tiny bobbin pins that slows me
> > down.  That'd be an even worse issue with extra windings.   But I heard
> > a rumor about a special magnet wire with disappearing enamel at
> > soldering temps.
> 
> Brand names "Soldereze" and "Thermaleze".  Apparently this uses a
> polyurethane-base enamel.
> 
> I've done a couple of projects using it... something akin to "wire
> wrap" construction, but you connect-and-wrap using Soldereze wire and
> then do the soldering using an iron with an 800-degree-F tip.  Unlike
> normal wire-wrap you don't have to either strip or slit the wire in
> advance, or wrap only onto sharp-cornered square pins that can
> penetrate the insulation.
> 
> One disadvantage is that you need a fairly hot iron to get the
> insulation to melt/burn off properly, and this may be too hot for
> certain components, nylon bobbins and connectors, etc.

as long as you start from the wire end where the solder can get in 
direct contact with copper and sorta creep under the insulation it 
doesn't need to be that hot

> We have a winder, but need an fixture for small bobbins. I have the
> full range of materials, including my favorite Kapton tape, in various
> widths.  It's the painful magnet-
> wire enamel removal and soldering to tiny bobbin pins that slows me
> down.  That'd be an even worse issue with extra windings.   But I heard
> a rumor about a special magnet wire with disappearing enamel at
> soldering temps.

Brand names "Soldereze" and "Thermaleze".  Apparently this uses a
polyurethane-base enamel.

I've done a couple of projects using it... something akin to "wire
wrap" construction, but you connect-and-wrap using Soldereze wire and
then do the soldering using an iron with an 800-degree-F tip.  Unlike
normal wire-wrap you don't have to either strip or slit the wire in
advance, or wrap only onto sharp-cornered square pins that can
penetrate the insulation.

One disadvantage is that you need a fairly hot iron to get the
insulation to melt/burn off properly, and this may be too hot for
certain components, nylon bobbins and connectors, etc.

On 02 Jan 2017 12:32:05 GMT, Rob <nomail@example.com> wrote:

>Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>>Use Beldsol enameled wire. Just solder it with a hot iron.
>>
>> I've a similar litze wire for my Boehm self built organ.
>> Use Weller 8 tips instead of 7, and tin-lead solder.
>> It was 17 guilders at the time (1980) for 90 meter.
>> Boehm had all kind of secondary supplies (meters, resistors,
>> etc.) for cheap, and unbranded. Maybe this was Beldsol.
>> It is litze, enamelled and then wrapped in secondary isolation.
>
>In the Netherlands similar wire was known as "Posijndraad", I'm not
>sure if Posijn was a manufacturer and where it was based.
>I made quite some digital circuits in the past with this wire and
>breadboard-type PCB (1/10" spaced holes with a copper island per hole).
>Indeed it was easy to solder with a number 8 tip, without having to
>pre-tin the ends of the wire.  I just wrapped the wire 1 turn around
>the IC pin (continuing to the next pin when required) and soldered those
>junctions.

This is 30 gage Beldsol, from ebay. It helps to scrape away a bit of
insulation before soldering, but with a hot tip it's not necessary. I
used a Metcal iron here with a cheapish Thermaltronics S75C clone tip,
rated 350-398C.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Protos/Beldsol_30.JPG


-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing   precision measurement 

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

On Monday, January 2, 2017 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-5, Tim Wescott wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Jan 2017 19:56:52 +0100, Albert van der Horst wrote:
> 
> > In article <no228m01d1m@drn.newsguy.com>,
> > Winfield Hill  <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote:
> >>bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote...
> >>>
> >>> Too many people make a habit of avoiding custom magnetics.
> >>> The Rowland Institute ought to have a simple coil winder -
> >>> there are cheap ones available from China if it doesn't - and you
> >>> don't need much of a range of RM cores, formers, mylar tape and
> >>> enamelled wire to do useful stuff.
> >>
> >> We have a winder, but need an fixture for small bobbins. I have the
> >> full range of materials, including my favorite Kapton tape, in various
> >> widths.  It's the painful magnet-
> >> wire enamel removal and soldering to tiny bobbin pins that slows me
> >> down.  That'd be an even worse issue with extra windings.   But I heard
> >> a rumor about a special magnet wire with disappearing enamel at
> >> soldering temps.
> > 
> > I use aspirin to melt the enamel, and solder 0.1 mm wires no problem. It
> > looks like you don't know that trick.
> > (You must use acetyl salicic acid, the brand. just any pain killer won't
> > do. No mixins.)
> 
> I have been dicking around with magnet wire for around four decades, and 
> I've never heard a hint of that trick.  Wow.
Me too.  (Years ago I used this awful black gunk that you let sit 
on the insulation and it would slowly eat it away...) 
Now we just use a coating that melts in the solder pot.

I'll give it a try on some other wire. 

George H. 
> 
> Is it just the fact that it's an acid that melts at soldering 
> temperatures that does it (like, could I use some other flux)?  Or is the 
> fact that it's asprin that's special?


> 
> -- 
> 
> Tim Wescott
> Wescott Design Services
> http://www.wescottdesign.com
> 
> I'm looking for work -- see my website!

"Tim Wescott" <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> wrote in message 
news:6PmdnYJ2pPNFQPfFnZ2dnUU7-cudnZ2d@giganews.com...
> Is it just the fact that it's an acid that melts at soldering
> temperatures that does it (like, could I use some other flux)?  Or is the
> fact that it's asprin that's special?

Yes and yes.  First, an organic melt helps to dissolve and loosen things 
(it's a solvent).  An acid helps, combining with oxides (and carrying them 
away in the liquid).  Acetylsalicylic acid will help further because the 
acetyl- part hydrolyzes relatively easily (even if you're not putting water 
into it, it's probably a prime part of decomposition products), giving a 
much stronger acid to dissolve crusty deposits.  (Acetic acid also forms a 
complex with copper ions, giving extra solubility over, say, nitric acid. 
Not that you'd use that for soldering.)

The boiling/decomposition temperature sounds a little low, though, if it's 
sputtering and boiling away immediately.

That's a downside to ~pure organic compounds: the melting and boiling points 
are sharp.  Rosin is a mixture of heavier organic acids, so it's a bit 
milder (depending on "activation"), and different compounds evaporate first, 
leaving the metal protected even if the remaining goo isn't very active.

Tim

-- 
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com