Reply by Michael A. Terrell ●January 18, 20142014-01-18
Spehro Pefhany wrote:

> 
> On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 21:57:28 -0500, the renowned "Michael A. Terrell"
> <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> >
> >Spehro Pefhany wrote:
> >>
> >> On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 18:05:07 -0500, the renowned "Michael A. Terrell"
> >> <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >josephkk wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> IIRC in tubes the first number was about heater/filament voltage.  See
> >> >> the tubes in an old all American five receiver.  Three 12 somethings a
> >> >> 35W4 (rectifier) and a 50C5 (audio output pentode power tube).
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >12AV6 (Detector, first audio amp)
> >> >12BA6 (IF amplifier)
> >> >12BE6 (Local Oscillator & mixer.)
> >>
> >> But..but 3JP1 is a tube and it has a 6.3VAC/600mA filament voltage.
> >
> >
> >   3JP1 is an obsolete CRT, not part of the 'All American Five' tube
> >lineup.
> 
> But it is a tube.



   There are tubes, and there are tubes.  The entire number only,
industrial series has no relation to the filament voltage. Just the
jellybean, consumer types. 7025 was the industrial version of the 12AX7?



> You could even find a similar tube in a radio at one time:


   How about the 6E5 'eye' tube that was used to indicate signal levels,
or as an industrial indicator?

 

> http://classicreceivers.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/marantz-4400-left.jpg
> 
> I actually ordered one of these back when they were new, but the order
> got hung up for some reason. I think it was about 20-25% of the price
> of a cheap car at the time.



   I remember seeing one in a stereo shop when they were new. I couldn't
see any reason to buy it.


-- 
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
Reply by Spehro Pefhany ●January 18, 20142014-01-18
On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 21:57:28 -0500, the renowned "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:


>
>Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 18:05:07 -0500, the renowned "Michael A. Terrell"
>> <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> 
>> >
>> >josephkk wrote:
>> >>
>> >> IIRC in tubes the first number was about heater/filament voltage.  See
>> >> the tubes in an old all American five receiver.  Three 12 somethings a
>> >> 35W4 (rectifier) and a 50C5 (audio output pentode power tube).
>> >
>> >
>> >12AV6 (Detector, first audio amp)
>> >12BA6 (IF amplifier)
>> >12BE6 (Local Oscillator & mixer.)
>> 
>> But..but 3JP1 is a tube and it has a 6.3VAC/600mA filament voltage.
>
>
>   3JP1 is an obsolete CRT, not part of the 'All American Five' tube
>lineup.


But it is a tube. 

You could even find a similar tube in a radio at one time: 

http://classicreceivers.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/marantz-4400-left.jpg

I actually ordered one of these back when they were new, but the order
got hung up for some reason. I think it was about 20-25% of the price
of a cheap car at the time.  


Best regards, 
Spehro Pefhany
-- 
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Reply by Michael A. Terrell ●January 17, 20142014-01-17
Spehro Pefhany wrote:

> 
> On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 18:05:07 -0500, the renowned "Michael A. Terrell"
> <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> >
> >josephkk wrote:
> >>
> >> IIRC in tubes the first number was about heater/filament voltage.  See
> >> the tubes in an old all American five receiver.  Three 12 somethings a
> >> 35W4 (rectifier) and a 50C5 (audio output pentode power tube).
> >
> >
> >12AV6 (Detector, first audio amp)
> >12BA6 (IF amplifier)
> >12BE6 (Local Oscillator & mixer.)
> 
> But..but 3JP1 is a tube and it has a 6.3VAC/600mA filament voltage.



   3JP1 is an obsolete CRT, not part of the 'All American Five' tube
lineup.


-- 
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
Reply by Jan Panteltje ●January 15, 20142014-01-15
On a sunny day (Wed, 15 Jan 2014 06:30:56 -0600) it happened "Tim Williams"
<tmoranwms@charter.net> wrote in <lb5v22$1vt$1@dont-email.me>:


>> http://tubedata.tubes.se/sheets/168/3/3BGP1.pdf
>>
>> (dimensions given in fractional inches- quite a blast)
>
>Cute!  Would indeed be good for battery operation... they didn't have 
>camcorders in 1960, but I wouldn't be surprised if that one (or a modified 
>version) was found inside the handheld Tek (and other brand?) scopes.


Smeting like that was called the 'A-scope' in the Ampex broadcast machines in the sixties.
wget "http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Ampex_VR1000A_(serial_329).jpg"

It is in the little scope on the contol panel.
Reply by Tim Williams ●January 15, 20142014-01-15
"Spehro Pefhany" <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message 
news:cj4cd95gv5148qov89vncdh4qbalotiigf@4ax.com...

> Cool. I had one of the somewhat later round tube color sets.. all tube
> including the big X-ray emitting HV rectifier etc. Quite a behemoth,
> and finicky as all get out electronically.


Yup.  They were capable of reasonable performance -- NTSC standard after 
all -- but the adjustments are a pain, and these days, you aren't getting 
anywhere until all those damned wax capacitors are replaced with new films 
(and the electrolytics reformed or, better yet, replaced as well).

Don't forget the big X-ray emitting triode!  Those early sets had an HV 
shunt regulator.  Let's see a semiconductor handle an SOA of 30kV, 1mA!

- Si BJTs top out around 1kV
- MOSFETs are available up to I think 4kV (the largest I see is an 
IXFT1N450 which doesn't even go to 4500V in the DC SOA; the furthest peak 
is 2000V 35mA, at the boundary of 2nd breakdown)
- SiC has been claimed to run at 10kV (but I haven't seen more than 
research papers about it)
- The hottest "receiving tubes" otherwise are, I think, sweep tubes, in 
the 8kV peak range (but they aren't recommended to carry current at that 
voltage; I wonder what the actual SOA is).

Speaking of HV diodes, you could use one as a very slow, non-latching HV 
SCR by modulating the heater.  You could even make a very slow bridge, 
which would allow AC detection and switching of EHV.  A lot of 
contemporary equipment which required extreme sensitivity (high impedance, 
low bias current, or low drift) used CdS photocells and neon lights to do 
the same thing -- chopper amps.

Which reminds me further, I recently picked up an old HP X-Y plotter. 
Which, despite the name, I don't think originated with HP as such.  At 
least not their usual test equipment department.  The whole thing is 
eleven transistors per axis servo.  Each channel has a single 2N3055 which 
handles bidirectional control of its motor.  It's a neat solution.


> BTW, I found a few CRTs that have other than 6.3V filaments:
> http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/test-parts/tubes-pg3.jpg
>
> 3AP1, 3AP5, 5MP1, and a bunch of the 900-series  2.5V @ 2.1A
> (5.3W vs. the more usual 6.3V/0.6A = 3.8W (one is half that)
>
> And the 3BGP1, P2, etc.  with a quite different 1.5V 140mA filament--
> only 240mW!
>
> http://tubedata.tubes.se/sheets/168/3/3BGP1.pdf
>
> (dimensions given in fractional inches- quite a blast)


Cute!  Would indeed be good for battery operation... they didn't have 
camcorders in 1960, but I wouldn't be surprised if that one (or a modified 
version) was found inside the handheld Tek (and other brand?) scopes.

Tim

-- 
Seven Transistor Labs
Electrical Engineering Consultation
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
Reply by Spehro Pefhany ●January 15, 20142014-01-15
On Tue, 14 Jan 2014 22:19:55 -0600, the renowned "Tim Williams"
<tmoranwms@charter.net> wrote:


>"Spehro Pefhany" <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message 
>news:qlpbd9p9blrik201pkq9mn23mo7mp1p9pf@4ax.com...
>> I don't know of any offhand, but I might suspect some of the miniature
>> ones might.
>>
>> I took the cover off my ca. 1979 Unisonic XL-990 and found the CRT
>> part number (Orion 60AB4) but didn't find a datasheet on the tube. (I
>> guess the 60 is the diagonal measurement in mm, and it's a B&W P4 type
>> phosphor).
>>
>> http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/northamftc_unisonic_xl_990.html
>>
>> It still functions after 35+ years, however, sadly, there are no more
>> analog TV signals floating around the ether for it to receive.
>
>Cute.
>
>My brother has quite an interest in early TV, he's got (or had and sold, 
>I'm not sure right now) some of the earliest sets:
>http://www.earlytelevision.org/rca_21ct55.html
>The CRT is a metal cone type -- wrapped in a large polyethylene cover, 
>which krackles massively every time the high voltage comes and goes.


Cool. I had one of the somewhat later round tube color sets.. all tube
including the big X-ray emitting HV rectifier etc. Quite a behemoth,
and finicky as all get out electronically. 


>Unfortunately, few of those CRTs (21AXP22 = 21", P22 color/triple 
>phosphor) survive.  The construction was a glass faceplate with a 
>surrounding metal seal, welded to a metal cone on the electron gun 
>section.  The seals weren't so much an issue as the welds, which were much 
>leakier than all-glass construction.  He's involved with some of the CRT 
>repair pages related to these early sets (though I don't remember which 
>ones offhand).  There are only a few people known in the entire world who 
>have the equipment to fix CRTs anymore.
>
>Tim


As long as a few of them hang onto the equipment while the glut of NOS
tubes gets used up they'll have a good little business. 

BTW, I found a few CRTs that have other than 6.3V filaments: 
http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/test-parts/tubes-pg3.jpg

3AP1, 3AP5, 5MP1, and a bunch of the 900-series  2.5V @ 2.1A 
(5.3W vs. the more usual 6.3V/0.6A = 3.8W (one is half that)

And the 3BGP1, P2, etc.  with a quite different 1.5V 140mA filament--
only 240mW! 

http://tubedata.tubes.se/sheets/168/3/3BGP1.pdf

(dimensions given in fractional inches- quite a blast) 

--sp  






Best regards, 
Spehro Pefhany
-- 
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Reply by Tim Williams ●January 15, 20142014-01-15
"Spehro Pefhany" <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message 
news:qlpbd9p9blrik201pkq9mn23mo7mp1p9pf@4ax.com...

> I don't know of any offhand, but I might suspect some of the miniature
> ones might.
>
> I took the cover off my ca. 1979 Unisonic XL-990 and found the CRT
> part number (Orion 60AB4) but didn't find a datasheet on the tube. (I
> guess the 60 is the diagonal measurement in mm, and it's a B&W P4 type
> phosphor).
>
> http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/northamftc_unisonic_xl_990.html
>
> It still functions after 35+ years, however, sadly, there are no more
> analog TV signals floating around the ether for it to receive.


Cute.

My brother has quite an interest in early TV, he's got (or had and sold, 
I'm not sure right now) some of the earliest sets:
http://www.earlytelevision.org/rca_21ct55.html
The CRT is a metal cone type -- wrapped in a large polyethylene cover, 
which krackles massively every time the high voltage comes and goes.

Unfortunately, few of those CRTs (21AXP22 = 21", P22 color/triple 
phosphor) survive.  The construction was a glass faceplate with a 
surrounding metal seal, welded to a metal cone on the electron gun 
section.  The seals weren't so much an issue as the welds, which were much 
leakier than all-glass construction.  He's involved with some of the CRT 
repair pages related to these early sets (though I don't remember which 
ones offhand).  There are only a few people known in the entire world who 
have the equipment to fix CRTs anymore.

Tim

-- 
Seven Transistor Labs
Electrical Engineering Consultation
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
Reply by Spehro Pefhany ●January 14, 20142014-01-14
On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 22:34:18 -0600, the renowned "Tim Williams"
<tmoranwms@charter.net> wrote:


>"Spehro Pefhany" <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message 
>news:te19d9dieuq221bebjg45r80rfdg83t3sk@4ax.com...
>> But..but 3JP1 is a tube and it has a 6.3VAC/600mA filament voltage.
>
>Of course, CRTs go by inches. :)
>
>Were there any CRTs with other-than-6.3V heaters -- or directly heated 
>filaments for that matter?
>
>Tim


I don't know of any offhand, but I might suspect some of the miniature
ones might. 

I took the cover off my ca. 1979 Unisonic XL-990 and found the CRT
part number (Orion 60AB4) but didn't find a datasheet on the tube. (I
guess the 60 is the diagonal measurement in mm, and it's a B&W P4 type
phosphor). 

http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/northamftc_unisonic_xl_990.html

It still functions after 35+ years, however, sadly, there are no more
analog TV signals floating around the ether for it to receive. 


Best regards, 
Spehro Pefhany
-- 
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Reply by Tauno Voipio ●January 14, 20142014-01-14
On 14.1.14 07:57, josephkk wrote:

> On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 19:34:32 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
> <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 18:05:07 -0500, the renowned "Michael A. Terrell"
>> <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> josephkk wrote:
>>>>
>>>> IIRC in tubes the first number was about heater/filament voltage.  See
>>>> the tubes in an old all American five receiver.  Three 12 somethings a
>>>> 35W4 (rectifier) and a 50C5 (audio output pentode power tube).
>>>
>>>
>>> 12AV6 (Detector, first audio amp)
>>> 12BA6 (IF amplifier)
>>> 12BE6 (Local Oscillator & mixer.)
>>
>> But..but 3JP1 is a tube and it has a 6.3VAC/600mA filament voltage.
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Spehro Pefhany
>
> Yes, there are some exception classes, your CRT being one as well as
> tuning indicator tubes and thyratrons.  Larger transmitting tubes also
> usually do not follow the rule, e.g. my 4CX600J's.  Nor do klystrons and
> traveling wave tubes.  But at least the system tried to be somewhat
> descriptive.
>
> ?-)
>


The larger transmitting tubes show the number of elements first:
  3: triodes
  4: tetrodes
  5: pentodes

A dash means an internal-anode glass tube, like 3-500Z

A X means an external-anode tube, like 4X150A

A CX means a ceramic-based external anode tube, like 4CX1000A

The number at the end is the maximum anode dissipation in watts.

The letter at the end in usually a version letter, with Z signifying
a zero-bias Class B triode.

-- 

Tauno Voipio
Reply by josephkk ●January 14, 20142014-01-14
On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 19:34:32 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:


>On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 18:05:07 -0500, the renowned "Michael A. Terrell"
><mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>josephkk wrote:
>>>=20
>>> IIRC in tubes the first number was about heater/filament voltage.  =

See

>>> the tubes in an old all American five receiver.  Three 12 somethings =

a

>>> 35W4 (rectifier) and a 50C5 (audio output pentode power tube).
>>
>>
>>12AV6 (Detector, first audio amp)=20
>>12BA6 (IF amplifier)
>>12BE6 (Local Oscillator & mixer.)
>
>But..but 3JP1 is a tube and it has a 6.3VAC/600mA filament voltage.=20
>
>
>Best regards,=20
>Spehro Pefhany


Yes, there are some exception classes, your CRT being one as well as
tuning indicator tubes and thyratrons.  Larger transmitting tubes also
usually do not follow the rule, e.g. my 4CX600J's.  Nor do klystrons and
traveling wave tubes.  But at least the system tried to be somewhat
descriptive.

?-)