Reply by December 31, 20132013-12-31
On Monday, December 30, 2013 1:21:31 PM UTC-5, Don Kuenz wrote:
> dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote: > > > However annoying patents are, these things are always patented, and > > have to be. These guys filed in 2009. Without patents it wouldn't > > make sense to do all that work--make all that investment--only > > to have it ripped off the nanosecond you ship. > > There's two schools of thought regarding patents with my energy > extraction clients. One school believes that patents are better than > nothing to protect a new gadget. The other school believes that patents > only reveal the inner workings of a new gadget to pirates. What one > believes seems to hinge on what happened to one's father. > > In the former case, the father-in-law of one my clients invented a new > gadget and did not patent it. The inner workings of the gadget got > ripped off soon after it hit the oil field. > > In the latter case, the father of one of my clients got ripped off by > pirates who used the father's patent as a blueprint. So the son did not > file a patent on a new invention. Instead the son housed his new gadget > in a virtual vault made of steel. > > Black box virtual vaults (that are not always painted black) are common > in the oil field. One client suspected that a black box rented by him > contained little more than a PC. But the "if we detect that you opened > our black box you own it" clause in the rental contract along with a > sky high sticker price kept the enigma intact.
That sort of arrangement is best, where possible IMHO. If you can keep your device secret, keep it secret. That costs nothing, needs no paperwork, has no fees, and never expires. But, that doesn't work if you're selling something with a clever circuit that anyone can take apart and understand.
> RCA profited mightily from its guerrilla hold on radio patents. So > "General" Sarnoff reckoned that RCA was entitled to own all of the > newfangled television patents too. But an unknown named Philo Farnsworth > invented television first. > > That set up a "David versus Goliath" struggle, but instead of a sword > the Goliath named RCA wielded a bunch of off-the-wall patents. > Apparently the "General" thought that, "If you can't dazzle them with > brilliance, baffle them with BS!" Unfortunately this time around Goliath > used its legal might to win by dragging things out in court until > Farnsworth's patents expired.
I don't quite understand that last bit. IIRC, patent damages would still be collectable on the pre-expiration period of infringement even after the patent expired. Cheers, James Arthur
Reply by Jim Thompson December 31, 20132013-12-31
On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 19:58:38 -0800 (PST), Artem <artem.bond@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Monday, December 30, 2013 8:57:13 PM UTC+2, Jim Thompson wrote: > >> I have no idea what the concept requires, but I regularly work with as >> >> many as 5-layers of metalization on-chip. Perhaps they're using >> >> Silicon Nitride as the dielectric? And XFAB's XDM10 process has 350V >> >> devices. >> > >The IRF has 1200V Gate drivers.IR22141 But I'm not sure that it can work at 300Mhz.
That's a _lot_ more capacitance. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by Jan Panteltje December 31, 20132013-12-31
On a sunny day (Tue, 31 Dec 2013 12:55:22 GMT) it happened Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in <l9uerr$vru$1@news.albasani.net>:

>>Rugged Reliability >>The elimination of heavy components, like magnetic core transformers, enabl= >>es superior resistance to mechanical shock and vibration. Furthermore, the = >>overall reduction in component count, specifically of through-hole componen= >>ts, means fewer points of failure.
It is not that surface mount makes the thing more resistant to vibration and shock. In fact the slightest bending of a surface mount board will cause disaster, the old resistors and caps with wires through holes would keep working when the board bended. It was an old mil requirement that wires had to be through holes in pins and folded around those some times and then soldered.... Not sure that still goes.
Reply by Jan Panteltje December 31, 20132013-12-31
On a sunny day (Tue, 31 Dec 2013 01:42:18 -0800 (PST)) it happened Greegor
<greegor47@gmail.com> wrote in
<d556849a-6d99-4915-a875-3d028dd3fe8c@googlegroups.com>:

>JA > The picture showed a line-operated >JA > "plug," which suggests they've >JA > got galvanic isolation. > >G > They're taking PRE-ORDERS on their website.. >G > This 65W laptop adapter is to be out in mid 2014. >G > At CES 2014 in Las Vegas Jan 7-10 >G > Venetian Level 1 Booth #74113 >G > Anybody here going to CES? >G > FINsix is supposedly based in Menlo Park, CA >G > ASIC work is to be at: 27 Drydock Avenue, Boston, MA 02210 >G > Venture capital backed. > >http://www.finsix.com/products/adapter.html > >http://www.finsix.com/company/team.html >G > (Impressive) > >Leadership Team >Vanessa Green - Chief Executive Officer >Anthony Sagneri - Chief Technology Officer >Joseph Scarci - VP of Sales and Marketing >Jim Kardarch - Director, Technology Integration (Computing) >Dave Grant - Director, IC Development
>http://www.finsix.com/products/led.html > >LED Driver (In Development) > >G > I just hope it's not another vaporware.. > >Jan > So it seems to be resonant after all...: >Jan > :-) > >http://www.finsix.com/technology/advantages.html > >Technology Advantages > >10x Power Density >At VHF switching frequencies, energy is processed more often, so it can be = >handled in smaller chunks. This means less temporary energy storage so the = >inductors and capacitors can shrink. Since these energy storage components = >occupy the bulk of the volume, the direct consequence is reduced converter = >size&#4294967295;up to 10x&#4294967295;and higher power density. > >Amazing Transient Response >Transient response reflects how fast a power converter can adapt to changes= > in the load or source. FINsix converters are 1,000x faster than today&#4294967295;s = >technology. This makes life easier for system designers and enables unexpec= >ted applications, like best in class dimming and compatibility for LED lamp= >s. > >Rugged Reliability >The elimination of heavy components, like magnetic core transformers, enabl= >es superior resistance to mechanical shock and vibration. Furthermore, the = >overall reduction in component count, specifically of through-hole componen= >ts, means fewer points of failure. > >Batch Manufacturing >Since we don&#4294967295;t need discrete inductors or other through-hole components, = >our power converters can be manufactured in a fully automated surface-mount= > process, ensuring high reliability and repeatability. > >Jan > And no efficiencey numbers given, must be really bad. >Jan > Only advantage small size? >Jan > Only 110 V? >Jan > How about RF interference at VHF? with DTV, cellphones? >Jan > Normal switchers are already bad enough, >Jan > I have one radiating 250 kHz. > >This would be hard to get past FCC emissions testing right? > >Jan > And to say, here: > >http://www.finsix.com/products/led.html > >"Highest Performance - Blinking, >instability, noise and LED lamps >that just refuse to turn on are history." > >Jan > Well that is almost like saying: >Jan > "Our cars start every time, unlike noisy >Jan > other ones that just refuse to start..." >Jan > Gimme a break. >Jan > :-) > >Do any of your LED lamps "just refuse to turn on" ? >ROFL
Really, I have one Cree flashlight (from ebay) that is single button, can flash and dim, variable focus, ultra bright beam (do not look into it), 3 other flashlights, for car, house, etc, also LED. One LED light in the bedroom on 230 V, Color LED strips in the living room window pane with my own color controller, controlled from a PC: http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/ethernet_color_pic/index.html and none make a noise, and all of that comes 'on' the moment you switch it on, the LED strips can be modulated by music in color and amplitude. You can get 230 V LEDs here at the supermarket, they are getting cheaper too, some have a remote control I think for 'on' 'off' and color, and have labels indicating power consumption and light output.
>What do you think the odds are that >FINsix will make it to 2015?
Well the CV of some of those great people may mention they worked on the most advanced power technology ever invented and patented by MIT <insert professor name>, when presented on the *next* website. Last night I did read up on PC ATX power supply efficiency, the current 'best of the crop', and that is something like 93% (for 400 W at full load and 50 % power level). http://www.plugloadsolutions.com/80PlusPowerSupplies.aspx click on 'what is 80 PLUS certified" To be better they will at least need 95 % in their converters. At 60 W 5 % is 3 W, and 3 W in that small housing they have will get bleeding hot. So 98 % would be better, but it looks like they still use a diode bridge, still need mains isolation, absolutely need mains RF filtering, and output filtering (inductors!), so and those things have losses too. And the 230 V version. ebay is full with LED and laser diode drivers.... small PCBs.... As they say, waiting for their products, do not hold your breath.
Reply by Greegor December 31, 20132013-12-31
JA > The picture showed a line-operated
JA > "plug," which suggests they've
JA > got galvanic isolation.
=20
G > They're taking PRE-ORDERS on their website..
G > This 65W laptop adapter is to be out in mid 2014.
G > At CES 2014 in Las Vegas Jan 7-10
G > Venetian Level 1 Booth #74113
G > Anybody here going to CES?
G > FINsix is supposedly based in Menlo Park, CA
G > ASIC work is to be at: 27 Drydock Avenue, Boston, MA 02210
G > Venture capital backed.
=20
http://www.finsix.com/products/adapter.html
=20
http://www.finsix.com/company/team.html
G > (Impressive)
=20
Leadership Team
Vanessa Green - Chief Executive Officer
Vanessa is co-founder and Chief Executive Officer of FINsix. Most recently,=
 Vanessa was a business development manager at TECOM Investments (Dubai, UA=
E) where she led business development and strategy for Enpark, a 1.4M squar=
e foot sustainable real estate project and investment vehicle. Vanessa work=
ed with the Monitor Group from 2005 =96 2007 and is a board member of Commu=
nity Water Solutions, a non-profit she co-founded in 2008. In 2011, Vanessa=
 won the Patrick E. McGovern Entrepreneurship Award, and was selected as a =
Boston Business Journal Innovation All-Stars Rising Star and Forbes 30-unde=
r-30 in Energy. Vanessa holds an M.Eng. in Civil and Environmental Engineer=
ing from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, an MBA from the Massach=
usetts Institute of Technology Sloan School of Management and a B.A. in Env=
ironmental Science from Dartmouth College.
=20
Anthony Sagneri - Chief Technology Officer
Tony is co-founder and Chief Technology Officer at FINsix. Prior to startin=
g FINsix, Tony completed a Ph.D. with the RLE/LEES laboratory at MIT in VHF=
 power. He helped establish the fundamental network principles behind VHF p=
ower conversion and designed and built over a dozen high-performance conver=
ters. In addition he established and validated device optimization and tran=
sformer synthesis techniques enabling higher efficiency and access to a bro=
ader applications space. Before MIT, Tony served for five years in the U.S.=
 Air Force, rising to the rank of Captain. As a Mission Operations Commande=
r at DGS-2, Beale AFB, he led a team of 70 intelligence operators to 169 co=
llection missions over a number of locations worldwide. Tony holds a Ph.D. =
and S.M. in Electrical Engineering from MIT, a BSEE from Rensselaer Polytec=
hnic Institute and is a graduate of the U.S. Air Force Intelligence Officer=
 Course.
=20
Joseph Scarci - VP of Sales and Marketing
Joe is Vice President of Sales and Marketing at FINsix, where he leads all =
product management, product marketing, marcom, and partnering activities. P=
rior to FINsix, Joe worked as Vice President of Marketing at SolarBridge Te=
chnologies, a microinverter start-up based in Austin, TX. At SolarBridge, J=
oe was responsible for all marketing and sales activities and led partnerin=
g efforts that resulted in six contracts with leading solar panel manufactu=
rers. Prior to SolarBridge, he worked at Schneider Electric/American Power =
Conversion, Analog Devices, and AT&T, where he held a variety of general ma=
nagement and senior marketing positions. Joe earned both a Bachelor of Scie=
nce degree in Mechanical Engineering and a Master of Business Administratio=
n degree from Carnegie Mellon University.
=20
Jim Kardarch - Director, Technology Integration (Computing)
Jim retired from Intel at the end of 2012 as a Senior Principal Engineer an=
d Chief Power Architect. Jim worked at Intel for 26 years, with 24 years fo=
cused on notebook platform architecture and low power technologies. Jim has=
 over 100 issued patents and has lead development of many industry specific=
ations including ACPI (Advanced Configuration and Power Interface), and a l=
ow power radio technology he famously named Bluetooth. Jim is a senior memb=
er of IEEE, was an original inductee into the Bluetooth Hall of Fame (2006)=
, and was a runner up in the Discover Magazine Award for Technology Innovat=
ion in 1999, has received five Intel Achievement Awards and a gold Intel En=
vironmental award. Jim also does volunteer work with the MESA (Math Enginee=
ring Science and Achievement) program for underprivileged students to encou=
rage STEM education for which Jim was awarded the 2012 Santa Clara Site Int=
el Involved Hero Award and works with the MESA program as part of an Encore=
 Fellowship program. Jim has a BS in Electrical Engineering from California=
 State University Fresno (=9284) and was recently awarded their =93Top Dog=
=94 Alumni award for lifetime achievement (Go Dogs!) and was recently featu=
red in the CSU Working in California series for CSU=92s 50th anniversary.
=20
Dave Grant - Director, IC Development
Dave is the Director of IC development at FINsix. Prior to FINsix, Dave wor=
ked at Texas Instruments for 18 years, holding the title of Distinguished M=
ember of Technical Staff. At Texas Instruments he designed and led the desi=
gn of many different families of analog and mixed signal ICs, including pow=
er controllers, monolithic power converters, LDOs and RF ICs. Prior to Texa=
s Instruments, Dave worked as a system level designer for 11 years, develop=
ing video test equipment for Philips, CRT based computer monitors and test =
hardware for IBM, high end stereo electronics for Linn Products and digital=
 electronics for a business computer company. He has 20 issued patents. Dav=
e has a BSc in Electrical and Electronic Engineering from The University of=
 Glasgow, Scotland, UK.
=20
=20
G > Their other product:
=20
http://www.finsix.com/products/led.html
=20
LED Driver (In Development)
=20
G > I just hope it's not another vaporware..
=20
Jan > So it seems to be resonant after all...:
Jan > :-)
=20
http://www.finsix.com/technology/advantages.html
=20
Technology Advantages
=20
10x Power Density
At VHF switching frequencies, energy is processed more often, so it can be =
handled in smaller chunks. This means less temporary energy storage so the =
inductors and capacitors can shrink. Since these energy storage components =
occupy the bulk of the volume, the direct consequence is reduced converter =
size=97up to 10x=97and higher power density.
=20
Amazing Transient Response
Transient response reflects how fast a power converter can adapt to changes=
 in the load or source. FINsix converters are 1,000x faster than today=92s =
technology. This makes life easier for system designers and enables unexpec=
ted applications, like best in class dimming and compatibility for LED lamp=
s.
=20
Rugged Reliability
The elimination of heavy components, like magnetic core transformers, enabl=
es superior resistance to mechanical shock and vibration. Furthermore, the =
overall reduction in component count, specifically of through-hole componen=
ts, means fewer points of failure.
=20
Batch Manufacturing
Since we don=92t need discrete inductors or other through-hole components, =
our power converters can be manufactured in a fully automated surface-mount=
 process, ensuring high reliability and repeatability.
=20
Jan > And no efficiencey numbers given, must be really bad.
Jan > Only advantage small size?=20
Jan > Only 110 V?
Jan > How about RF interference at VHF? with DTV, cellphones?=20
Jan > Normal switchers are already bad enough,
Jan > I have one radiating 250 kHz.
=20
This would be hard to get past FCC emissions testing right?
=20
Jan > And to say, here:
=20
http://www.finsix.com/products/led.html
=20
"Highest Performance  -  Blinking,
instability, noise and LED lamps
that just refuse to turn on are history."
=20
Jan > Well that is almost like saying:
Jan > "Our cars start every time, unlike noisy
Jan > other ones that just refuse to start..."
Jan > Gimme a break.
Jan > :-)
=20
Do any of your LED lamps "just refuse to turn on" ?
ROFL
=20
What do you think the odds are that
FINsix will make it to 2015?
Reply by Artem December 30, 20132013-12-30
On Monday, December 30, 2013 8:57:13 PM UTC+2, Jim Thompson wrote:

> I have no idea what the concept requires, but I regularly work with as > > many as 5-layers of metalization on-chip. Perhaps they're using > > Silicon Nitride as the dielectric? And XFAB's XDM10 process has 350V > > devices. >
The IRF has 1200V Gate drivers.IR22141 But I'm not sure that it can work at 300Mhz.
Reply by Jim Thompson December 30, 20132013-12-30
On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 13:26:19 -0500, krw@attt.bizz wrote:

>On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 10:57:53 -0700, Jim Thompson ><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > >>On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 12:42:42 -0500, krw@attt.bizz wrote: >> >>>On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 20:25:06 -0700, Jim Thompson >>><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >>> >>>>On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 20:13:00 -0800, josephkk >>>><joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>>On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 08:42:46 -0800 (PST), dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Oh I see lots of problems, this cap switcher, when in series with the buck, >>>>>>> may charge smoothly, but then putting those caps in parallel >>>>>>> on the next step, would require precise equal caps (so they were charged to the same voltage), >>>>>>> else you get big spikes (at that 1MHz) in the switching FETS to equalize the cap voltages, >>>>>> >>>>>>Agreed--any cap mismatch produces dV(c), making spikey spikes when >>>>>>switching from series to parallel configuration, same as a >>>>>>conventional charge-pump. >>>>>> >>>>>>> If on chip caps then they could be equal, in any case what would aging do with external caps? >>>>>> >>>>>>I haven't bothered with any numbers, but I rather doubt they could >>>>>>use on-chip caps. The capacitances and voltages needed are too high. >>>>>>So says my gut, anyhow. >>>>>> >>>>>>Let's see...if we wanted 60w (input) worth of charge packets at >>>>>>1MHz at 170VDC input, >>>>>>c=60W/(.5*v^2*1Mhz)= 4nF for the series string, or 12nF each for >>>>>>a string of 3, at 57 volts each. >>>>>> >>>>>>That would be quite a chip. >>>>> >>>>>I would hope to shout. Dang, that would be massive caps on chip. Mebbe >>>>>one of our IC design capable persons could enlighten us on the kind of >>>>>area needed. These would have to be relatively good quality (for on chip) >>>>>caps as well. >>>>> >>>>>?-) >>>> >>>>Realistically, the max easily obtainable is about 1pF/um^2 >>> >>>At 57V? Isolated? Realistically? ;-) >> >>57V is right on the edge of processes I'm familiar with, but 1pF/um^2 >>is a good number. And there are other passivation layers under >>experimentation that have both HV _and_ high pF/um^2. > >So you can really stack them to 170V at 1pF/um^2?
I have no idea what the concept requires, but I regularly work with as many as 5-layers of metalization on-chip. Perhaps they're using Silicon Nitride as the dielectric? And XFAB's XDM10 process has 350V devices. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by December 30, 20132013-12-30
On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 10:57:53 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 12:42:42 -0500, krw@attt.bizz wrote: > >>On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 20:25:06 -0700, Jim Thompson >><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >> >>>On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 20:13:00 -0800, josephkk >>><joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >>> >>>>On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 08:42:46 -0800 (PST), dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Oh I see lots of problems, this cap switcher, when in series with the buck, >>>>>> may charge smoothly, but then putting those caps in parallel >>>>>> on the next step, would require precise equal caps (so they were charged to the same voltage), >>>>>> else you get big spikes (at that 1MHz) in the switching FETS to equalize the cap voltages, >>>>> >>>>>Agreed--any cap mismatch produces dV(c), making spikey spikes when >>>>>switching from series to parallel configuration, same as a >>>>>conventional charge-pump. >>>>> >>>>>> If on chip caps then they could be equal, in any case what would aging do with external caps? >>>>> >>>>>I haven't bothered with any numbers, but I rather doubt they could >>>>>use on-chip caps. The capacitances and voltages needed are too high. >>>>>So says my gut, anyhow. >>>>> >>>>>Let's see...if we wanted 60w (input) worth of charge packets at >>>>>1MHz at 170VDC input, >>>>>c=60W/(.5*v^2*1Mhz)= 4nF for the series string, or 12nF each for >>>>>a string of 3, at 57 volts each. >>>>> >>>>>That would be quite a chip. >>>> >>>>I would hope to shout. Dang, that would be massive caps on chip. Mebbe >>>>one of our IC design capable persons could enlighten us on the kind of >>>>area needed. These would have to be relatively good quality (for on chip) >>>>caps as well. >>>> >>>>?-) >>> >>>Realistically, the max easily obtainable is about 1pF/um^2 >> >>At 57V? Isolated? Realistically? ;-) > >57V is right on the edge of processes I'm familiar with, but 1pF/um^2 >is a good number. And there are other passivation layers under >experimentation that have both HV _and_ high pF/um^2.
So you can really stack them to 170V at 1pF/um^2?
Reply by Don Kuenz December 30, 20132013-12-30
dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:

> However annoying patents are, these things are always patented, and > have to be. These guys filed in 2009. Without patents it wouldn't > make sense to do all that work--make all that investment--only > to have it ripped off the nanosecond you ship.
There's two schools of thought regarding patents with my energy extraction clients. One school believes that patents are better than nothing to protect a new gadget. The other school believes that patents only reveal the inner workings of a new gadget to pirates. What one believes seems to hinge on what happened to one's father. In the former case, the father-in-law of one my clients invented a new gadget and did not patent it. The inner workings of the gadget got ripped off soon after it hit the oil field. In the latter case, the father of one of my clients got ripped off by pirates who used the father's patent as a blueprint. So the son did not file a patent on a new invention. Instead the son housed his new gadget in a virtual vault made of steel. Black box virtual vaults (that are not always painted black) are common in the oil field. One client suspected that a black box rented by him contained little more than a PC. But the "if we detect that you opened our black box you own it" clause in the rental contract along with a sky high sticker price kept the enigma intact. RCA profited mightily from its guerrilla hold on radio patents. So "General" Sarnoff reckoned that RCA was entitled to own all of the newfangled television patents too. But an unknown named Philo Farnsworth invented television first. That set up a "David versus Goliath" struggle, but instead of a sword the Goliath named RCA wielded a bunch of off-the-wall patents. Apparently the "General" thought that, "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS!" Unfortunately this time around Goliath used its legal might to win by dragging things out in court until Farnsworth's patents expired. -- __ __/ \ / \__/ \__/ Don Kuenz / \__ \__/ \ \__/
Reply by Jim Thompson December 30, 20132013-12-30
On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 12:42:42 -0500, krw@attt.bizz wrote:

>On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 20:25:06 -0700, Jim Thompson ><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > >>On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 20:13:00 -0800, josephkk >><joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> >>>On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 08:42:46 -0800 (PST), dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>> Oh I see lots of problems, this cap switcher, when in series with the buck, >>>>> may charge smoothly, but then putting those caps in parallel >>>>> on the next step, would require precise equal caps (so they were charged to the same voltage), >>>>> else you get big spikes (at that 1MHz) in the switching FETS to equalize the cap voltages, >>>> >>>>Agreed--any cap mismatch produces dV(c), making spikey spikes when >>>>switching from series to parallel configuration, same as a >>>>conventional charge-pump. >>>> >>>>> If on chip caps then they could be equal, in any case what would aging do with external caps? >>>> >>>>I haven't bothered with any numbers, but I rather doubt they could >>>>use on-chip caps. The capacitances and voltages needed are too high. >>>>So says my gut, anyhow. >>>> >>>>Let's see...if we wanted 60w (input) worth of charge packets at >>>>1MHz at 170VDC input, >>>>c=60W/(.5*v^2*1Mhz)= 4nF for the series string, or 12nF each for >>>>a string of 3, at 57 volts each. >>>> >>>>That would be quite a chip. >>> >>>I would hope to shout. Dang, that would be massive caps on chip. Mebbe >>>one of our IC design capable persons could enlighten us on the kind of >>>area needed. These would have to be relatively good quality (for on chip) >>>caps as well. >>> >>>?-) >> >>Realistically, the max easily obtainable is about 1pF/um^2 > >At 57V? Isolated? Realistically? ;-)
57V is right on the edge of processes I'm familiar with, but 1pF/um^2 is a good number. And there are other passivation layers under experimentation that have both HV _and_ high pF/um^2. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.