Reply by Oppie October 15, 20132013-10-15
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:382f8037-cc97-43f8-919b-4f50e7d078ff@googlegroups.com...
> You can find the exploded parts diagram and part number list for all the > FAIP stuff all over the web. There is no centrifugal switch, no potential > relay, no nothing to cut the start winding out. The ON/OFF switch, Swiss > made by DiSA, has the thermal protection, a M1630FV 12.5A T1, means a > 12.5A fast thermal cutout, two pole single throw ( looks like one ea for > run and start windings ), spring loaded momentary. There is more to the > cap than just rating, it has a form factor and a grommet to waterproof the > fast-on connection. If you don't have a waterproof fit, anything could > happen. >
Haven't found much for the H120 on the web. Even the FAIP-NA (www.fna-group.com) site doesn't have it. I erroneously referenced a H150 as that was the only one for which a user manual could be found. I think I found something similar in a Husky P1600
Reply by October 14, 20132013-10-14
On Monday, October 14, 2013 1:56:00 PM UTC-4, Oppie wrote:
> <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote in message=20 >=20 > news:b2f4ce9c-716a-40ee-9995-fb758f2c13ab@googlegroups.com... >=20 > > On Saturday, October 12, 2013 3:23:00 PM UTC-4, Oppie wrote: >=20 > > >=20 > > That model uses an 80MFD 250VAC capacitor which is within the realm of =
a=20
>=20 > > PSC motor value, there is no centrifugal switch or any other kind of st=
art=20
>=20 > > winding cutout, the start winding remains in the circuit permanently. J=
ust=20
>=20 > > spend the $22 on FAIP part no. MECO61695 and be done with it. >=20 > > >=20 >=20 >=20 > Thanks for the reality check! >=20 > Thought I could get a grainger part similarly rated (of course "similarly=
=20
>=20 > rated" was open to conjecture). So, I spent $16 on the grainger cap but=
=20
>=20 > didn't have to pay for shipping... >=20 >=20 >=20 > My original thought was as Bud noted, the capacitor failed because the=20 >=20 > starting switch was stuck closed. I've had lots of motors with starting=
=20
>=20 > switches fail stuck and you can hear the difference when the start wining=
is=20
>=20 > energized. Leave it on too long and the start winding fries. That happene=
d=20
>=20 > on one of our lathes. The operator thought Gee this motor's got more ball=
s=20
>=20 > today and I can take bigger cuts... right up to the point where the motor=
=20
>=20 > smoked (found that since it was 'nuisance tripping' he had upped the curr=
ent=20
>=20 > trip level). Since then, I've been trying to use a better current sense w=
ith=20
>=20 > something like a Siemens 48ATD1S00 to replace the OEM current relay.
You can find the exploded parts diagram and part number list for all the FA= IP stuff all over the web. There is no centrifugal switch, no potential rel= ay, no nothing to cut the start winding out. The ON/OFF switch, Swiss made = by DiSA, has the thermal protection, a M1630FV 12.5A T1, means a 12.5A fast= thermal cutout, two pole single throw ( looks like one ea for run and star= t windings ), spring loaded momentary. There is more to the cap than just r= ating, it has a form factor and a grommet to waterproof the fast-on connect= ion. If you don't have a waterproof fit, anything could happen.
Reply by October 14, 20132013-10-14
On Monday, October 14, 2013 3:20:21 PM UTC-4, Jon Elson wrote:
> bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > >=20 >=20 > >=20 >=20 > >> The new thing is called a "Stearns Sinpac" switch. You may >=20 > >>=20 >=20 > >> be able to get them from Grainger or McMaster-Carr. >=20 > >>=20 >=20 > >> It is an electronic replacement for the potential relay >=20 > >>=20 >=20 > >> used in larger hermetic compressors, as well as the older >=20 > >>=20 >=20 > >> thermal starting control on small refrigerators. >=20 > >>=20 >=20 > >> Just Google "sinpac switch" and you'll get the manufacturer's >=20 > >>=20 >=20 > >> main page on this device, then you can dig for a local >=20 > >>=20 >=20 > >> distributor of them. >=20 > >>=20 >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > Absolutely wrong technology for a high frequency ON/OFF cycle app like =
a
>=20 > > pressure washer. His motor is a PSC anyway. >=20 > Don't most pressure washers just let the motor run, and limit pressure >=20 > with a relief valve? Or is that last decade's technology? >=20 > Yes, of course, if it is PSC, then no starting control is needed. >=20 > I had to trust the OP's description of the motor, which apparently was >=20 > wrong. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Jon
Some do and some don't. Some have a pressure actuated switch that cuts powe= r to the motor whether the operator is holding the power switch (usually a = momentary) ON or not (Karcher), some don't. Regardless, the operator will b= e constantly turning the thing ON and OFF in normal use too. So thermal cut= outs are not used here. And yes, most of them use bypass relief pressure re= gulators.
Reply by Jon Elson October 14, 20132013-10-14
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

> > >> The new thing is called a "Stearns Sinpac" switch. You may >> >> be able to get them from Grainger or McMaster-Carr. >> >> It is an electronic replacement for the potential relay >> >> used in larger hermetic compressors, as well as the older >> >> thermal starting control on small refrigerators. >> >> Just Google "sinpac switch" and you'll get the manufacturer's >> >> main page on this device, then you can dig for a local >> >> distributor of them. >> > > Absolutely wrong technology for a high frequency ON/OFF cycle app like a > pressure washer. His motor is a PSC anyway.
Don't most pressure washers just let the motor run, and limit pressure with a relief valve? Or is that last decade's technology? Yes, of course, if it is PSC, then no starting control is needed. I had to trust the OP's description of the motor, which apparently was wrong. Jon
Reply by Oppie October 14, 20132013-10-14
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:b2f4ce9c-716a-40ee-9995-fb758f2c13ab@googlegroups.com...
> On Saturday, October 12, 2013 3:23:00 PM UTC-4, Oppie wrote: > > That model uses an 80MFD 250VAC capacitor which is within the realm of a > PSC motor value, there is no centrifugal switch or any other kind of start > winding cutout, the start winding remains in the circuit permanently. Just > spend the $22 on FAIP part no. MECO61695 and be done with it. >
Thanks for the reality check! Thought I could get a grainger part similarly rated (of course "similarly rated" was open to conjecture). So, I spent $16 on the grainger cap but didn't have to pay for shipping... My original thought was as Bud noted, the capacitor failed because the starting switch was stuck closed. I've had lots of motors with starting switches fail stuck and you can hear the difference when the start wining is energized. Leave it on too long and the start winding fries. That happened on one of our lathes. The operator thought Gee this motor's got more balls today and I can take bigger cuts... right up to the point where the motor smoked (found that since it was 'nuisance tripping' he had upped the current trip level). Since then, I've been trying to use a better current sense with something like a Siemens 48ATD1S00 to replace the OEM current relay.
Reply by October 14, 20132013-10-14

> The new thing is called a "Stearns Sinpac" switch. You may > > be able to get them from Grainger or McMaster-Carr. > > It is an electronic replacement for the potential relay > > used in larger hermetic compressors, as well as the older > > thermal starting control on small refrigerators. > > Just Google "sinpac switch" and you'll get the manufacturer's > > main page on this device, then you can dig for a local > > distributor of them. >
Absolutely wrong technology for a high frequency ON/OFF cycle app like a pressure washer. His motor is a PSC anyway.
Reply by Jon Elson October 13, 20132013-10-13
Oppie wrote:

> > Now looking for a simple electronic or magnetic replacement.
The new thing is called a "Stearns Sinpac" switch. You may be able to get them from Grainger or McMaster-Carr. It is an electronic replacement for the potential relay used in larger hermetic compressors, as well as the older thermal starting control on small refrigerators. Just Google "sinpac switch" and you'll get the manufacturer's main page on this device, then you can dig for a local distributor of them. Jon
Reply by bud-- October 13, 20132013-10-13
On 10/12/2013 8:45 PM, Oppie wrote:
> "Kevin McMurtrie" <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> wrote in message > news:mcmurtrie-55EEC7.16524612102013@c-61-68-245-199.per.connect.net.au... >> >> Maybe there's no switch. If so, you need a run capacitor rather than a >> start capacitor. Start capacitors are aluminum electrolytic while run >> capacitors are plastic film. Electrolytic capacitors produce gases at >> high currents and they'll explode without a long resting period. >> > Duly noted. Thank you for the explanation. I was not aware of the > difference. Trying to confirm whether it has a centrifugal switch and > making the appropriate choice.
A run cap of the same value, if I remember right, is significantly larger. And if there is a start switch that does not open I would expect the start winding would overheat and fail. If there is a start switch and it is not opening the previous failed start cap may have protected the winding.
> > I did run the motor albeit without water pressurization loading. After > motor was to speed, opened the capacitor circuit. There was no loss of > speed when the capacitor was opened. I should repeat the test with > hydrostatic load. The motor is a Nord and must have been a custom for > FAIP. I haven't been able to get an answer from FAIP or whomever > purchased them. > > Regards - Oppie
Reply by October 13, 20132013-10-13
On Saturday, October 12, 2013 3:23:00 PM UTC-4, Oppie wrote:

That model uses an 80MFD 250VAC capacitor which is within the realm of a PS=
C motor value, there is no centrifugal switch or any other kind of start wi=
nding cutout, the start winding remains in the circuit permanently. Just sp=
end the $22 on FAIP part no. MECO61695 and be done with it.
Reply by Oppie October 12, 20132013-10-12
"Kevin McMurtrie" <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> wrote in message 
news:mcmurtrie-55EEC7.16524612102013@c-61-68-245-199.per.connect.net.au...
> > Maybe there's no switch. If so, you need a run capacitor rather than a > start capacitor. Start capacitors are aluminum electrolytic while run > capacitors are plastic film. Electrolytic capacitors produce gases at > high currents and they'll explode without a long resting period. >
Duly noted. Thank you for the explanation. I was not aware of the difference. Trying to confirm whether it has a centrifugal switch and making the appropriate choice. I did run the motor albeit without water pressurization loading. After motor was to speed, opened the capacitor circuit. There was no loss of speed when the capacitor was opened. I should repeat the test with hydrostatic load. The motor is a Nord and must have been a custom for FAIP. I haven't been able to get an answer from FAIP or whomever purchased them. Regards - Oppie